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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Phillipa on November 25, 2006, at 19:22:39
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by SLS on November 25, 2006, at 17:42:24
Scott did I hear you say you were happy? Nardil is working? Love Jan
Posted by SLS on November 25, 2006, at 20:57:50
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » SLS, posted by Phillipa on November 25, 2006, at 19:22:39
> Scott did I hear you say you were happy? Nardil is working? Love Jan
No, Nardil is not working - yet. Well, maybe a little. It is hard to tell. I feel better just to be recovering from my recent adverse reaction to Lyrica.
I find happiness despite my depression. It is an active process, not a passive one. It is the result of the decisions I make as I choose which cognitive steps to take on a moment by moment basis. I create my own path. It is a happy one. It is a matter of perspective. I have much to be grateful for. I live in a democratic country of personal freedoms with sufficient financial resources to maintain my independence and have a few toys to play with. I look for and find joys all around me. Life is good. Life is fun. I have as much of it as I can.
- Scott
Posted by mattdds on November 26, 2006, at 5:44:56
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » Phillipa, posted by SLS on November 25, 2006, at 20:57:50
SLS,
These are some of the healthiest posts I've seen on this board for a while.
I think your implicit message is that beliefs about recovery (and I am strongly convinced these can be changed) play a very strong role in getting there.
The tone in your posts sounds very CBT-ish. I like it! Thanks for the reminder - I've been very lazy about this for about 2 years now. Luckily, a good part of the CBT work that I did 'stuck'.
I noticed your near-automatic countering of all-or-nothing thinking. I think the same way. No, I'm not beaming with eternal, uninterrupted bliss. Far from it. But I usually find that if I work at it, I can find enough satisfaction with things to be...err, satisfied.
Life is (now) worthwhile for me, and I have no reason to fake it.
Thanks again!
Matt
Posted by SLS on November 26, 2006, at 7:17:56
In reply to Err on the side of It's treatable » SLS, posted by mattdds on November 26, 2006, at 5:44:56
Thanks, Matt.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on November 26, 2006, at 13:52:58
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by SLS on November 25, 2006, at 17:42:24
I wouldn't err on the side of thinking a person is happy, because if they are, there is nothing bad will happen.
OTOH if you assume they are unhappy, then you might be able to help more people.My parents assume I am happy. Who could possably know me better than my parents? And if they are wrong, then.....
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 26, 2006, at 13:54:11
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » Phillipa, posted by SLS on November 25, 2006, at 20:57:50
I don't see how happiness and depression can coexist, unless if you consider mood swings.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on November 26, 2006, at 15:30:47
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » SLS, posted by linkadge on November 26, 2006, at 13:52:58
> I wouldn't err on the side of thinking a person is happy, because if they are, there is nothing bad will happen.
I disagree. I think that having such an outlook will impact adversely the quality of life of the person who holds such a negative view, both mentally and physically. It must surely promote depression and cynicism, which in turn promotes heart disease and reduces immune system function.
> OTOH if you assume they are unhappy, then you might be able to help more people.
I understand what you are saying here. What if one were to become better able to recognize unhappiness just as they are able to recognize happiness? Then, they wouldn't have to resort to a default position such as erring on the side of believing that everyone is unhappy. Do you feel it is your duty in life to help everyone become happy or preventing everyone from committing suicide? If so, then you may well have chosen for yourself a noble profession for which I believe recognizing the existence of happiness might prove useful. Even if you do choose to be a mental health professional, I believe it is unhealthy to walk the streets assuming unhappiness in every face you come upon just so that you don't overlook a psychiatric emergency. You must maintain your own mental health before you can attend to the health of others. You will have to find balance.
> My parents assume I am happy. Who could possably know me better than my parents? And if they are wrong, then.....
I have no doubt that the people in your life have difficulty in recognizing your unhappiness. You say that your parents assume that you are happy. Do they assume this despite your attempts to communicate to them otherwise? What have you said to them?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on November 26, 2006, at 16:09:10
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 26, 2006, at 13:54:11
> I don't see how happiness and depression can coexist, unless if you consider mood swings.
I really can't speak for anyone but for myself. Depression is a beast of many faces, and I don't know if it is possible to be happy when staring into all of them.
I believe that happiness is the result of the way one thinks rather than the way one feels. Certainly, depression produces a force that tries to warp the way one thinks. This is where I think CBT can act as a coping tool. It can help with the recognition of, and compensation for, the cognitive distortions that are produced in the depressive state.
It is not an easy trick to pull off. However, the key is to make it a habit. I only wish that I could get myself to brush my teeth with such regularity.
Before I knew that my depression was biological, I was unhappy and suicidal. Once I understood that the biological feelings of depression were beyond my control and independent of thought, I was able to learn how to think happy and feel terrible. I decided long ago that it was better to be happy and miserable than to be unhappy and miserable.
What helped me was to conceptualize biological depression as a lack of reward and/or a preponderance of punishment. Before I knew there was such a thing as CBT, I was employing what I had learned about behaviorism in my college psychology 101 class regarding classical conditioning and operant learning to create a my own model of depression. It provided me with a conceptualization that allowed me to separate cognition from affect. I put this together and began to work with it over 20 years ago. It has been so long, that I don't realize when I do it anymore. Either it has become an integral part of my being, or I have just become less focused on performing the work, but I don't really think about it anymore.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on November 26, 2006, at 18:07:14
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by SLS on November 26, 2006, at 16:09:10
In a way it's acceptance and peace at what is? That's what it sounds like you're saying. Love Jan
Posted by linkadge on November 26, 2006, at 20:45:23
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » linkadge, posted by SLS on November 26, 2006, at 15:30:47
>It must surely promote depression and cynicism, >which in turn promotes heart disease and reduces >immune system function.
If I was under the impresson that my interpretation of the world was accurate, I'd accept the natural consequences of coming to terms with reality.Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 26, 2006, at 20:46:48
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by SLS on November 26, 2006, at 16:09:10
>Once I understood that the biological feelings >of depression were beyond my control and >independent of thought, I was able to learn how >to think happy and feel terrible.
If you say so.
Linkadge
Posted by cecilia on November 27, 2006, at 1:09:56
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 26, 2006, at 20:46:48
I used to think that everyone in the world who appeared happy must be faking it. I could never understand the concept of happiness. I still don't understand the concept, but I guess some people must really be happy, given that they ask "why?" when someone kills themself. To most of us on Psychobabble to ask "why? would be absurd.
But a lot of people ARE faking it. It happens all the time that someone kills themselves and their friends, parents, spouses, therapists are shocked. You read about how they were "oh so happy", football heros or homecoming queens or whatever "with everything to live for". (Even if they were on antidepressants, people will then turn around and say it must have been the fault of the AD's. Ok, it may be true as the black box warnings say that AD's can increase the chance of suicide but give me a break, there was a reason the person was on AD's in the 1st place. Happy people are usually very skilled at denial. Cecilia
Posted by SLS on November 27, 2006, at 6:27:59
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 26, 2006, at 20:46:48
> >Once I understood that the biological feelings >of depression were beyond my control and >independent of thought, I was able to learn how >to think happy and feel terrible.
>
> If you say so.
I know that I won't be very happy if Nardil doesn't work. I don't like feeling terrible and functioning poorly and being separated from society. If it doesn't work, I will need to go through a grieving process which will hopefully lead to acceptance. I might then be able to begin again choosing to think positive thoughts and finding happiness and joy within the boundaries imposed by depression.Happiness does not equate to a perpetual state of euphoria, although it can help facilitate it. Happiness is a state of interpretation and perspective. For some, it comes down to making a choice to live happy versus to live unhappy. However, to live happy often involves a learning process and performing work to produce change. To learn involves the acquisition of information. One must be taught how to be happy if they did not know how to be happy previously.
Not everyone can be happy, even when they know how to be. Life can be unfairly cruel. Life can be destitute and comprised of hardship. Life can remove choice.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on November 27, 2006, at 8:35:58
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by cecilia on November 27, 2006, at 1:09:56
>You read about how they were "oh so happy", >football heros or homecoming queens or >whatever "with everything to live for".
Thats exactly what I am taking about. This soceity runs on people faking happiness. Fake happiness is what makes the world go round.We sell fake happiness in magazines. We sell it on television.
Fake happiness sells macdonalds hamburgers, and its what keeps people employed.
We write songs about fake happiness.
The list goes on.
Oh, I'm sure there are some genuinly happy people, but I certainly don't go around assuming everybody is happy just cause they've got a smile on their face. Maybe if I was on ecstacy.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 27, 2006, at 8:39:07
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by SLS on November 27, 2006, at 6:27:59
>I might then be able to begin again choosing to >think positive thoughts and finding happiness >and joy within the boundaries imposed by >depression.
Huh?
>Not everyone can be happy, even when they know >how to be. Life can be unfairly cruel. Life can >be destitute and comprised of hardship. Life can >remove choice.
Now you're starting to see things ! :)
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on November 27, 2006, at 9:24:29
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 27, 2006, at 8:39:07
> > I might then be able to begin again choosing to think positive thoughts and finding happiness and joy within the boundaries imposed by depression.
> Huh?For me, depression is a disorder of the brain and not of the mind. The mind can determine the limits that depression imposes upon it. If I were to win the lottery, I wouldn't feel the elation that most people would. My brain is limited as to the arousal, reward, and hedonic responses it is capable of. I still feel terrible. It is therefore important not to interpret winning the lottery simply by associating it with feeling terrible and the lack of reward sensations. One must use cognition to interpret the significance of the event rather than relying upon their affective state. That is an unusual happening to use as an example, to be sure. Can you imagine, though, the multitude of microscopic associations and interpretations that one must navigate on a daily basis? If one becomes adept at using cognitive-behavioral re-interpretation of depressive automatic thoughts and distortions, it becomes a habit that's additive effect is to enhance one's mental health and improve the quality of life.
> > Not everyone can be happy, even when they know how to be. Life can be unfairly cruel. Life can be destitute and comprised of hardship. Life can remove choice.
> Now you're starting to see things ! :)I don't know in what ways life has been unfairly cruel to you, leaving you destitute and living a life comprised of nothing but hardship and without choice, but for this I am sympathetic.
Are you depressed? If so, is your depression biological, psychological, or the result of an interaction between the two?
- Scott
Posted by cecilia on November 27, 2006, at 17:48:28
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by cecilia on November 27, 2006, at 1:09:56
I've read that each person has a "setpoint" for happiness. They studied lottery winners and people who became paraplegics and right after the good or bad events people were happier or unhappier, but a year later they were just about at the same level of happiness as they had been before the events. Cecilia
Posted by clint878 on November 27, 2006, at 18:09:29
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 26, 2006, at 20:46:48
This is true. Before I ruined my life by taking Sam-E, I had depression under control using thought techniques. Even though I was tired underneath, I eventually learned to push through the tiredness and get stuff done anyway.
I gave up on trying medications and got off them all, and was better off. Don't dismiss the power of cognitive techniques.
Posted by aeon on November 27, 2006, at 18:15:30
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by cecilia on November 27, 2006, at 17:48:28
Great thread! I agree with Linkadge that you can never really tell who is actually feeling happy, or not. I fake happiness all the time... in fact people think I "fall" into depression every few months again, and I try to tell them I've been depressed the whole time.
They say "No you've been much better" and say "No I just had slightly more energy for some reason and had more energy to put towards PRETENDING to feel happy, motivated, involved etc"...
That's where my energy goes in the so called "happy" times, to pretense. I can hold it out for months sometimes but eventually it catches up with me, like a dog running at my heels.
I grasp deseperately at any little bit of energy I can find, just to keep up the appearance, buying this that or the other supplement, to the doc to get a new med, anything so that work, partner, parents friends will not have to know that I am depressed.
Within all this there is no real chance to be happy... so much effort time money thought goes into playing a role of the happy functioning guy who has finally recovered.
I really don't know if the oppostite of depression is happiness. Happiness is not fulfilling for me - depressed vs effective maybe. "Depression" is not an emotion... it is a disorder, that is multifaceted. There is even a variant of depression where excessive happiness arises in the midst of it all - Bipolar!
I think that the long term depressed among us develop so many coping mechanisms that we eventually lose touch even with who we are. It gets lost in the layers of pretended emotional states... today is someone's birthday party, put on "social, fun, spontaneous, chatty" face. But what if you feel like curling up in fetal position? Often we manage to drag ourselves out with whatever chemical help we can swing together... there is always the fear that we have made a mistake this time and combined the wrong things. And we struggle through the party, and everyone says isn't it great that he's feeling better? He's like his "old" self....
Inside the loathing and the cognitive behavioural tricks are depleting energy, the fuel guage is below zero and you know that after this you will crash, the energy you had scraped together zapped in four hours, and you do.
So you fake the flu, don;'t go to work, sleep for days, gather some more energy, try to banish that aching stone in your chest , work around it, think of something, anything positive.
But you know you're going to have to go back to work, that you will have to talk to your partner, that the kids need you. So you drag yourself out and this time you are doing it with no energy, there's no pretending, you just go through the motions. Its all you can do. "GOD why don't you put some effort in?" screams your partner! "You're not applying yourself you need to think more positive, get some pep!" says your sales manager.
No one can see that the effort you put into simply brushing your teeth is herculean. Then getting your clothes on without bursting in to tears.
Everywhere you look there is a grey black smog. Your chest is all you can feel and the rising panic and fear and god knows what it is, there's no words.
Through all of this the struggle continues, on and on, year after year, relentless.
This is not a feeling. It is a disease, and happiness is not the cure. Complete removal of the signs and symptoms of the disease is the cure, so that you can feel once again the full gamut of human joys, sorrows, elations, hopes, dreams, disappointments, boredom, peace, fear, love.
All you feel when you are depressed is emptiness mixed with anxiety, this is not an emotion, and it is not fair that we should feel like this day in day out. We are less than human, and that's why our definition of a good day is one where we didn't consider swallowing a lethal dose of all those pills we've collected up.
No, happiness has got little, or nothing to do with it. Once we are better, happiness is one of the emotions we will feel at times, when it is appropriate to feel it, and without having to try.
Sorry for the rant.
aeon
Posted by linkadge on November 27, 2006, at 18:35:00
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » linkadge, posted by SLS on November 27, 2006, at 9:24:29
Well you've achieved a level of controll that I have not.
My brain and my mind are one. If I am depressed, theres no thought that brings any ounce of satisfaction or resurrance.When I can gain controll of my own thoughts, that is when I know I am feeling better.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 27, 2006, at 18:36:22
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by cecilia on November 27, 2006, at 17:48:28
I don't believe it, give me a million dollers I will proove you're wrong.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 27, 2006, at 18:37:06
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » linkadge, posted by clint878 on November 27, 2006, at 18:09:29
What was your experience with SAMe?
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 27, 2006, at 18:47:43
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by aeon on November 27, 2006, at 18:15:30
Hey, thanks for that, it was important.
>playing a role of the happy functioning guy who >has finally recovered.Bingo. You need to fake it all the time. For inststance, I wanted out of the hospital so I faked being well just so they'd let me out. Was I still suicidal, of course. Was I any better than when I went in? No.
But I guess the point I am trying to make is that this society is like "The Emperors New CLoths". YOu know the kids story, where everybody pretends that the emperor is wearing cloths just because they don't want to get into trouble.
Then one kid says, hey, the emperor is not wearing anything.
Its the same with happiness. You can't just say, "Hey, recovery is possable cause look at all the happy people around you"This society would fall flat on its face if everyone went around acting like how they felt.
Antidepressants have just made the situation worse. They've made it even harder for people to express how they really feel. Cause now, its not normal to be depressed. If you feel like crap, you've got to see a therapist to get that fixed up.
Maybe we all feel like crap for all I know.Like I originally said, I cannot trust my own presentations to the world, therefore I cannot trust other's presentations.
Linkadge
Posted by Jost on November 27, 2006, at 19:01:18
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 27, 2006, at 18:47:43
I'm not sure what people in this discussion mean by "happiness."
If by happiness you mean a monolithic, uninterrupted upbeat sense that life is a bowl of cherries-- or interlude in Eden-- or devoid of pain, disappointment, loss etc-- no, I'd say no one is happy.
I don't think of myself as a happy person-- and probably would say I'm somewhere between a very and pretty unhappy person-- and have been very depressed most of my life-- but I;ve experienced moments of happiness,excitement, warmth, closeness, signifcance, accomplishment-- which I also don't want to deny or annul.
I wish I'd experienced more of them-- and less of the dark emotions-- but my thought is that belief in happiness or the possiblity of meaning (even transient, partial happiness or meaning) is something like Pascal's wager-- if it does exist, I don't want to adhere to beliefs that would make it less likely (or even impossible) for me to experience as much of it as I can-- that would in effect destroy even my present hope for the future-- as well as the likelihood that that future can evolve out of this present.
Not that your current disbelief does negate it-- but it does darken the prospect of the future-- and also perhaps hinder you from working effectively toward whatever part of happiness you really could enjoy. Which is itself a sad thing-- and maybe doesn't have to be that way-- at least, sometime.
Jost
Posted by aeon on November 27, 2006, at 19:10:38
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 27, 2006, at 18:47:43
**Maybe we all feel like crap for all I know.**
I wondered this for a long time and the evidence for me stacks up that no they don't. We tend to extrapolate our emotional state to others its human nature... many do but it is not normal.
The whole situation becomes even more stupid if you ever happen to get shackled with the life sentence bipolar. You then have to be double vigilant... actually for me happiness is not even allowed, I have to be real careful in the times when I do feel "better" not get elated from the sheer relief of it and mistakenly tell someone like the (doctor)how great it feels.
I'll be whipped off back to the hospital in a second or worse have the meds removed that were giving me the brief relief.
I am in a catch 22 I can't show my depression and I can't show my happiness. I have to be on an even keel at all times. I just don't talk anymore. "How are you?" "Fine". I am in an emotional prison both within and without.
Hope, that's all we really have, that is the only thing that keeps us going. I observe other people because they give me hope that this is NOT human nature, it is just a disease. That's why I spend hours and hours looking for some slight hope that this or that herb, supp, med, or SOMETHING will be my magic.
I know my hope is misfounded. I am not stupid. I truly do not REALLY believe I will ever feel like they do. But what else is there? Depression + Despair = Death. I've been there and had to come back. So I cling to stupid, mindless brainless hope in the face of hopelessness.
One last thing: Those cognitive beahviourists can stick their happy thoughts you know where! :-) Cause I've tried it, over and over and over again, and thoughts do NOT affect your emotions when you are depressed because DEPRESSION IS NOT AN EMOTION and it overrides all other feelings.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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