![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 31 to 55 of 80. Go back in thread:
Posted by kara lynne on September 16, 2003, at 1:26:11
In reply to Re: I feel like I want to die without him. octopus » kara lynne, posted by octopusprime on September 15, 2003, at 22:17:37
Hi octopus.
I like you very much. Something about you is very real; you transmit right through the computer--maybe because you know them so well. (I also liked your analogy.)You do seem to understand this well. I thought I did, but I was so much older then---I'm younger than that now.
I was ok, then I was a raving lunatic. I called (see below) but he didn't answer. It might have registered that I called. He knows I'm desperate. He's detached. I'm in some kind of primal fury. People kill out of jealousy. Doesn't it come from some Original Attachment? That's how Desperate It Feels. You know, there really isn't enough information out there as to how to get through this kind of thing. There should be more.
I am having the most hell being alone. I'm ok if I'm being babysat (for the most part), but being alone is not good. I am a grown up and there really is no one I know that could just come over to stay the night, so I have to go it alone. And try not to pick up the phone again.
It's like I can't live until he un-rejects me.
I think he was considering someone while waiting to see if things might passively work out for us. It's his M.O. to be with someone all the time, and to have someone waiting wouldn't surprise me a bit. Since my letter, I guess he has carte blanche. Can we sit and think about how many ways he thinks she is better than me?
I really need help.
Please excuse this broken record.
Posted by kara lynne on September 16, 2003, at 1:39:17
In reply to Re: I figured it out, but I wish it helped more. » kara lynne, posted by fallsfall on September 15, 2003, at 21:56:06
Oh fallsfall. This is just no good at all. I don't know why he was bothering to leave me messages. Why did he do that? Why did he leave messages up until a week and a half ago that he missed me very much? And now today I am just something to toss in the recycle bin? I am such a loyal person. I try to take care of my friends, I value my friendships more than anything. I value my relationships. I take them seriously. I am honest, and forthcoming probably when I shouldn't have been, with him. Casting pearls before swine comes to mind.
He did a lot of lip service. It's so obvious now--he's carefully phrasing each word so that I don't think he's trying to get back in the relationship. But what was that all about before? Was it all just complete nonsense? So now he can cut all the ties, since I wrote that letter, and blame it on my misery. He can go to whomever he's had waiting in the wings.
I feel so utterly betrayed. I want to go back in time and do it all differently. I want to take back my dignity--but I want to humiliate myself in the same moment--what is up with that?
So the betrayal means that I don't survive, in here (points to heart of little girl inside).
I don't get it anymore. I don't think it is fair that I should have to be consumed with this, and he gets to detach like I never meant anything. He said I was the *love of his life*. God I wish I had just never ever ever ever beleived it. It would make this so much easier.
Posted by octopusprime on September 16, 2003, at 11:08:07
In reply to Re: I feel like I want to die without him. octopus, posted by kara lynne on September 16, 2003, at 1:26:11
i like you a lot too kara lynne. there are other posters here that are heartsick and lonely and hurting (see johnnysad on the grief board) but i only have the strength to support one, that's you, because it seems like you are a mirror of me in so many ways.
kara lynne, now that you mention primal fury and rage i am worried and scared for you. those impulses are so powerful and destructive, and we lose ourselves.
i'm working so hard because last year when i lost my best friend, i got angry. very angry. i got violent and hurt him. a monster came inside me for a little while. and i almost killed myself.
i should have gone to the hospital before i got violent. and if you are eaten by the anger monster and lose yourself, please go to the hospital too.so i can't help with anger, i don't know how. i was a shell of myself after the violent incident for months and months. then i met the man who most recently dumped me, who i associate with being well and me again. but now i realize, it's not him that made him well and me, it's me.
it's ok not to want to be alone. and it's ok to need help. can you stay with your mother or a friend for a week or two? i say to myself, "i don't feel well right now", and i give myself the same liberties as if i had the flu. if you were physically sick, you can stay with somebody and get some care. and if you're heartsick, i think you can do the same things.
be well kara lynne.
and you do not need to apologize and repeating yourself when you're asking for help. you are worth helping.> Hi octopus.
> I like you very much. Something about you is very real; you transmit right through the computer--maybe because you know them so well. (I also liked your analogy.)
>
> You do seem to understand this well. I thought I did, but I was so much older then---I'm younger than that now.
>
> I was ok, then I was a raving lunatic. I called (see below) but he didn't answer. It might have registered that I called. He knows I'm desperate. He's detached. I'm in some kind of primal fury. People kill out of jealousy. Doesn't it come from some Original Attachment? That's how Desperate It Feels. You know, there really isn't enough information out there as to how to get through this kind of thing. There should be more.
>
> I am having the most hell being alone. I'm ok if I'm being babysat (for the most part), but being alone is not good. I am a grown up and there really is no one I know that could just come over to stay the night, so I have to go it alone. And try not to pick up the phone again.
>
> It's like I can't live until he un-rejects me.
>
> I think he was considering someone while waiting to see if things might passively work out for us. It's his M.O. to be with someone all the time, and to have someone waiting wouldn't surprise me a bit. Since my letter, I guess he has carte blanche. Can we sit and think about how many ways he thinks she is better than me?
>
> I really need help.
>
> Please excuse this broken record.
Posted by kara lynne on September 16, 2003, at 11:50:32
In reply to Re: I feel like I want to die without him. octopus » kara lynne, posted by octopusprime on September 16, 2003, at 11:08:07
Dear octopus,
I'm sorry to hear about the pain you endured, but you sound like you've made great progress and recovery. I'm not sure if you've written more about your story or not--I'm sorry if I missed it, I'd like to hear more.I considered deleting that comment after I wrote it, mostly because I don't really feel an impulse towards violence (at the moment, anyway). I really just wanted to illustrate the intensity behind these emotions, the distortion around jealous feelings. Sometimes I try to articulate things for myself in an attempt to understand and clear them--that's all that was. Not that I don't feel any anger, because I surely do, and I'm sure I will feel even more in the future. (Unfortunately? Fortunately?) I tend to turn my rage inward--but I don't want to hurt myself with it either.
I feel a little better this morning. Thank you for your kindness.
Posted by fallsfall on September 16, 2003, at 22:36:35
In reply to fallsfall, posted by kara lynne on September 16, 2003, at 1:39:17
Kara,
Life isn't fair.
He made you unhappy. He hurt you. He still hurts you. He isn't good for you. You deserve better.
You aren't missing the connection with him, you are missing the connection with your parents - that is why the pain is so strong.
Please move through this difficult phase. There is another side, I promise. And you will dance on the other side.
If you can't sleep, take a sleeping pill (that was good advice for the other poster).
Please post in the morning. I'm thinking of you.
Posted by kara lynne on September 17, 2003, at 0:12:01
In reply to Don't call him » kara lynne, posted by fallsfall on September 16, 2003, at 22:36:35
falls!
I'm so glad you posted. I felt like I let you down. (I know it's not about that, but I'm only human.)I know it's not about missing him--although lately I'm not so sure. I am considering that if we did a few counseling sessions together I might feel a little clearer; either more ready to let go or to see if there is any hope. He mentioned in the last round of emails that he had suggested counseling earlier (right after the break up when I was too upset), and wondered if I was open to that at all. Of course this comes on the heels of my saying I could never get over this enough to consider working things out with him. He still in my mind, shows very little remorse (he's sorry for 'my pain'--not for his actions) and very little desire to fight for the relationship. His messages were kind of wishy washy and he was very quick to accept my letter and call it a day. He said he was apologizing without an ulterior motive--- I replied that the ulterior motive would have been the one that I was looking for. That's when he said he was confused (I don't blame him anymore)--I had written a letter about all his bad behavior and my irrevocable hurt--but then I'm looking for him to show me he cares.
The problem would be finding a good enough therapist that I would trust.
Portrait of insanity.
Posted by kara lynne on September 17, 2003, at 17:35:11
In reply to Re: Don't call him, posted by kara lynne on September 17, 2003, at 0:12:01
My counselor just said I had to pick one. Either get a therapist and have a few reminder sessions or let go. Write the email, but more importantly--cut the connection. Finally. Completely.
She said this is killing me, or will kill me. This is my most difficult issue in life; getting away from people that are bad for me. My worth has to be more important than the situation I'm leaving, ultimately. It has to get to that point.
Even when I indicated that I was softening on this--my ex asked if I wanted to talk and I emailed 'I think so'---I haven't heard back from him. She said it's just one more agonizing illustration of the Way Things Are and Will Be Forever with him.
So...I have to make a decision and act on it. I have to find a counselor, or make the break. Once and for all.
Posted by fallsfall on September 17, 2003, at 18:34:57
In reply to Meow. Kitty needs to sink or swim., posted by kara lynne on September 17, 2003, at 17:35:11
Kara,
I'm not your therapist so I can tell you what I think - your counselor can't.
Your ex has caused you lots of pain. You know that one of your weaknesses is hanging on to people who are causing you pain. You have gone through a lot in the last month(s?) to separate from him. Going back to him would be like going through the first semester of your senior year and quitting.
In a good relationship there is (almost) no pain. That doesn't sound like what you had with your ex. You can do better. You deserve better. You will do better.
Just Say No.
Posted by kara lynne on September 17, 2003, at 20:08:12
In reply to Just Say No » kara lynne, posted by fallsfall on September 17, 2003, at 18:34:57
I am going to. But it just feels like I won't be able to endure the pain. My counselor says it is the not letting go that is causing me the pain. I just wonder--how do I get to this magical state of letting go?
I thought I did so well--I moved out, I didn't talk to him, I didn't see him, I wrote the letter....and then boom. I'm back in utter desperation and attachment. If I say goodbye I really have to mean it, but how can I mean it when I feel this way?
Posted by fallsfall on September 17, 2003, at 21:19:12
In reply to Re: Just Say No, posted by kara lynne on September 17, 2003, at 20:08:12
Pain. How do we endure pain? I understand what it is to have pain that can't be endured.
The way that I made my pain over leaving my therapist endurable was that I recognized that she had made mistakes. I do splitting (black and white thinking), so when I finally saw that she had made mistakes I was able (finally) to see that she wasn't perfect. In fact, to me, she seemed to stop existing. Anyway, once I wasn't seeing her as perfect any longer it was a lot easier to leave. It did take a lot for me to see that she had made mistakes.
I don't know that you split, so that technique might not work as well for you as it did for me.
Meds can be helpful, has your pdoc prescribed any tranquilizers for you? I only take them when things get really bad, but when things are bad they are really helpful.
Could you set a goal (say the end of the month) and promise yourself that you won't have contact with him before then? When that time comes you need to reevaluate whether you want to set a new goal (yes) or contact him (no). That way you don't have to look at surviving the rest of your life. Just the next two weeks.
Ice cream.
Yes, you do need to mean your goodbye. I would love for you to say goodbye forever to him and mean it. I'm not sure you are ready to do that. But that doesn't mean that you need to reconnect with him. There are other options (like the goal stuff above).
I know this is so hard for you, and I'm so impressed at how you keep fighting for yourself. I'll be your cheering squad.
Posted by kara lynne on September 18, 2003, at 19:01:59
In reply to Re: Just Say No » kara lynne, posted by fallsfall on September 17, 2003, at 21:19:12
Hi falls,
Yes it does help. My counselor was reminding me yesterday of that so-obvious dynamic where you remember all the good and forget the pain. I keep thinking maybe this is more painful, so what's the point. She reminded me you can't get only the good and I'd be right back where I started in no time.But it's just relentless, whatever this pull is. That he and only he, the only one I can't get it from, is the only one that can make it better. You can tell me I'm the only one who can make it better but I just don't get that on a visceral level.
Sometimes I think maybe talking to him would make it easier. I would remember who he is and why he's not good for me. This white knuckling thing seems pointless after awhile. Sigh. I really don't know.
I do have some tranqs but they don't mix well with some other meds I'm taking.
thanks for the cheer.
Posted by fallsfall on September 18, 2003, at 22:04:03
In reply to Re: Just Say No, posted by kara lynne on September 18, 2003, at 19:01:59
You are doing such a good job, Kara.
If you have to talk to him, how about you invite him to a session with your counselor? I'm not sure that you wouldn't cave in if you talk to him alone.
Can you make a book of stories of lousy things that he has done? You could read it as a bedtime story.
You seem better in the last couple of days, but if you get back to a night like you had earlier this week, you might weigh the bad effects of mixing you meds with your tranquilizers against your need for the tranquilizer (of course, this depends on what "not mixing well" means).
Don't call him.
Posted by kara lynne on September 19, 2003, at 1:50:42
In reply to Re: Just Say No » kara lynne, posted by fallsfall on September 18, 2003, at 22:04:03
Thanks for the suggestion. I will start that tonight--the stories. I've been writing one liners to myself, but that doesn't seem to hold me very well. Maybe the stories will stick. However I just purged the entire story in a letter to him and look where it got me! It got him agreeing that things would never work and me in a panic. Nice work.
Unfortunately I might be better because I had that email contact with him, that ended with him bringing up the idea of counseling again. He doesn't want to go to my counselor--he's been before and it wasn't 'intense' enough. So he suggested we go to very 'intense' counseling together and that was how I got the name of this current therapist, that I decided to see myself instead. (Back in the days when I was rational and knew there was no counseling intense enough to salvage the relationship--and I had enough healthy anger not to think it was worth it anyway. What HAPPENED?!) But can you imagine what a disaster it would have been if we went to that therapist together? At least I saved myself that humiliation.
So a couple of days ago he said he was confused: I had written the letter telling him how I could never get over what happened and he agreed 'we' had too much anger and he accepted that the relationship was over. He said he was apologizing with no 'ulterior motive'. That's when I emailed him back saying I don't remember him ever apologizing with an ulterior motive--that's the one I would have been looking for, and that all I ever wanted was for him to try.
So he was rightfully confused, and I intimated I might indeed be open to counseling--but I didn't explain why we no longer have that therapist as an option--he had asked if we should make an appt. there. Since I don't have anyone I trust to call I'm in a holding pattern. I don't know whether I should avoid talking to him on the phone completely before we (if we do) see a therapist.
Meanwhile he has certainly not jumped at my apparent softening. I said I was not sure yet if I wanted to talk, but that I thought I did. He left one message, but is not being very aggressive about trying to contact me. He initially asked if I wanted to go ahead and make the appt. but I didn't have anyone to make it with--and that was the last I've heard from him. That was as much as he could muster, I guess.
My counselor reminds me that nothing has changed--once again. But I can't blame him, because I didn't answer his calls for all those weeks, and then wrote that letter. She says the difference is that I am the 'injured party' here. I guess he really just does not see it that way.
So I sort of renegged on the finality of my letter, but we're in limbo. He's telling me all over the place that he doesn't want to try, even though he says he misses me 'severely'. I'm still waiting for the calls. For what? Not to answer them? Why did I even write that letter? I almost did better before, when I didn't have to commit to the complete break. Now I'm just a mess again--that's when my counselor said I have to make a choice and follow through because this is keeping me in constant torment and collapse.
It would have been so simple. If he would have called and said he wanted me back, and kept calling--- So what *is* he doing? He's just saying he would go to intense psychotherapy with me, although last week he said no to that as well. And we all know where intense psychotherapy will get us--intensely separated. But maybe I would be able to get a little more clarity around it. Either that or we'd get a therapist like my current one and I'd leave feeling crazier than ever.
Ok, maybe it is time for that tranquilizer.
Posted by kara lynne on September 19, 2003, at 1:56:03
In reply to Re: Just Say No, posted by kara lynne on September 19, 2003, at 1:50:42
I just can't come to terms with this. I will never come to terms with this.
Posted by fallsfall on September 19, 2003, at 10:03:27
In reply to Why wouldn't it be a priority for him?, posted by kara lynne on September 19, 2003, at 1:56:03
Posted by fallsfall on September 19, 2003, at 10:13:34
In reply to Re: Just Say No, posted by kara lynne on September 19, 2003, at 1:50:42
Kara,
This is too hard for you. And clearly it is hard for him. I think that all of the empirical evidence says that the two of you are doomed as a couple, and that he takes advantage of your control/abuse issues.
Stop torturing yourself. When it is truly all over you WILL get over it. You have a good counselor who can help you do that. It is painful while you are letting it go, but the other side has much less pain.
Stop vacillating. Send him an email that says:
"Ex,
After considerable thought I have decided that our relationship must end. I think that it would be best if we have no contact with each other. You have been an important part of my life, and I thank you for that.
Kara"
(or something like that)And then move on with your life. You have a whole life to look forward to.
(((((Kara)))))
Posted by kara lynne on September 19, 2003, at 16:25:25
In reply to Re: Just Say No » kara lynne, posted by fallsfall on September 19, 2003, at 10:13:34
hello fallsfall,
I think, no matter how it may look, I'm gearing up for that.I slept until 2pm today, and I would still be sleeping if it didn't worry me. I started an ssri again and am trying not to give up on it, so maybe it's better if I sleep away the side effects. It's such a struggle because I could immediately feel an improvement in my general energy and then the grinding muscle tension and headaches began. This morning I kept waking up and feeling the pressure in my head and going back to sleep so I wouldn't have to be aware of it. I'll see if it lessens over time, but next weekend I have a continuning education course tha I have to be awake for.
Thanks falls, I know this must be frustrating to watch when it's so obvious from the outside!
Posted by fallsfall on September 19, 2003, at 18:28:34
In reply to Re: Just Say No, posted by kara lynne on September 19, 2003, at 16:25:25
Which one are you starting? Side effects are so much fun. Can you take good pain meds?
I'm sorry you don't feel good. I'll rub your forehead and sing you a lullaby.
Shhhhhh (((((Kara)))))
Posted by Liligoth on September 19, 2003, at 19:53:12
In reply to Re: Just Say No, posted by kara lynne on September 19, 2003, at 16:25:25
hi KaraLynne, Ive just sort of come in here at the end of a long thread so forgive me if this has already been discussed. Im wondering if you have tried a 12 step group for Love Addiction? It sounds like it addresses a lot of the trouble you are currently experiencing. Maybe a google search would turn up some good stuff on this that may be helpful to read - millions of people go through what you are experiencing & their stories may empower you.
Good luck & I agree with Fallsfall: cut the cord!
Posted by kara lynne on September 19, 2003, at 22:04:00
In reply to Re: Just Say No » kara lynne, posted by Liligoth on September 19, 2003, at 19:53:12
Hi liligoth,
Thanks for the suggestion. So are you a goth girl?S.L.A.A. was mentioned, and it most certainly applies. And another poster talked about a book I was also reading on breaking an addiction to a person. But you know I was thinking yesterday that I really need the support of a group. That book just isn't enough even though it has all the right information. In fact I was looking at another 12 step group directory today to try and find a nearby meeting, but I slept all day instead. The problem is for me that there can be a huge lag time from the initial idea to actually getting myself there. I haven't checked into any S.L.A.A. meetings to see if there are any around--maybe I'll search the web tonight.
Have you been?
Posted by kara lynne on September 19, 2003, at 22:14:40
In reply to Re: Just Say No » kara lynne, posted by fallsfall on September 19, 2003, at 18:28:34
ohhh you're so sweet. What a lovely idea.
I think I needed all that sleep, I feel a bit better physically. The severity of the muscle tension has eased a bit. I did take some pain medication but it didn't work very well--I will try again if I need to. What a trade off! I'll give you my suicidal depression and take constant throbbing headaches and grinding muscle tension. Taking the meds did remind me though, drastically, how off my biochemistry is--and how debilitating that is. Just the initial dose had me feeling almost human--a hurting human, but a human nonetheless.
Oh, and it's Paxil CR. I was able to tolerate Paxil 10 years ago until it stopped working. In the past few years I've tried again but couldn't tolerate the side effects. My doctor said for some inexplicable reason people are getting fewer s.e's with the CR version. I am going to try to bear with it for at least awhile, even it means I have to sleep my life away until the bugs are worked out. (not a good image, I know.)
What lullaby will you sing me?
Posted by fallsfall on September 20, 2003, at 6:25:48
In reply to falls (tried to post earlier, sorry if doubled), posted by kara lynne on September 19, 2003, at 22:14:40
I have 3 children, and I had a different lullaby for each of them. My oldest had "For Baby" (John Denver) - I learned it at summer camp:
I'll walk in the rain by your side,
I'll cling to the warmth of your tiny hand,
I'll do anything to make you understand,
I love you more than anybody can...My son had "Walk Shepherdess Walk" - learned at Girl Scout camp:
Walk shepherdess, walk
And I'll walk, too
We'll find the ram with the ebony horn
And the gold footed ewe...My youngest had the lullaby from Mary Poppins, "Stay Awake":
Stay Awake, don't rest your head
Don't lay down upon your bed
You're not sleepy as you seem
Stay awake don't nod and dream...I sang these songs endlessly to fussy babies in the middle of the night, and as I put young children to bed, as they grew older they would sing them with me.
Maybe I would choose "Sunshine on my shoulders" (John Denver) for you:
Sunshine on my shoulders makes me happy
Sunshine in my eyes can make me cry
Sunshine on the water looks so lovely
Sunshine almost always makes me high
If I had a day that I could give you
I'd give to you the day just like today
If I had a song that I could sing for you
I'd sing a song to make you feel this waySunshine on my shoulders makes me happy
Sunshine in my eyes can make me cry
Sunshine on the water looks so lovely
Sunshine almost always makes me highIf I had a tale that I could tell you
I'd tell a tale sure to make you smile
If I had a wish that I could wish for you
I'd make a wish for sunshine for all the whileSunshine on my shoulders makes me happy
Sunshine in my eyes can make me cry
Sunshine on the water looks so lovely
Sunshine almost all the time makes me highWould you like that one, Kara?
Posted by octopusprime on September 20, 2003, at 12:44:34
In reply to Re: Just Say No, posted by kara lynne on September 19, 2003, at 16:25:25
((kara lynne))
sorry I have been trying to get away for a few days.
you know the drill with SSRIs - give them 4 weeks. give yourself 4 weeks. 4 weeks is eternity when you are in the pits of emotional despair. but kara lynne, you haven't had enough time to give yourself a fair shot.
can you do other things to help with the side effects? schedule a massage for the muscle aches and pains? see if that helps for the headaches?
before you go to therapy with your ex, kara lynne, ask yourself:
1. "what would going to therapy accomplish?"
2. "what do i hope to achieve?"
3. "what is a realistic outcome of this situation?"i sense a disconnection between the probable answers to questions 2 and 3. i hope you think long and hard before going to therapy with him. the longer you are with him and dealing with him, the harder it is for you to heal.
closure and sadness sucks, but being stuck in relationship limbo is an emotional purgatory that will eat your brain and self-esteem.
((kara lynne))
i'm sorry you feel so bad and hope desperately that you will get some relief from your pain soon.
Posted by kara lynne on September 20, 2003, at 16:12:38
In reply to Re: falls (tried to post earlier, sorry if doubled) » kara lynne, posted by fallsfall on September 20, 2003, at 6:25:48
Yes! But that one might make me cry, so maybe the first two... I bet you have the sweetest lullaby voice.
Thank you.
Posted by kara lynne on September 20, 2003, at 16:27:36
In reply to Re: Just Say No, posted by octopusprime on September 20, 2003, at 12:44:34
Nice to hear from you, and thank you so much for your kind wishes. Yes, I'm going to try and hang in, but I could have slept all day again and I'm a little worried about being awake next weekend for my class. Plus, as long as I'm going to be asleep I should at least have the benefit of fallsfall singing me lullabyes.
All signs point to a Dead End in my relationship; I doubt therapy will change that. Even now he is being so inconsistent about following through. He's demonstrating exactly why I was so frustrated in the relationship. But on the other hand he initially said ok, let's make an appt. and I was the one who said I'd have to find someone else. From his perspective I guess it seems like I didn't follow through, even though I would expect him to keep trying--to write back and say let's find someone else, how's it going, etc. etc. And he did leave two messages on the phone that I didn't respond to, although I emailed him yesterday---and he didn't respond to that. I'm waffling because I don't know if I should talk to him on the phone first, before we have it set up for a third party to be there. On the other hand I think maybe it would 'break the spell' and maybe it would be easier for me to stay away. Then on the *other* hand (who is the octopus here?) I think he *must* be with someone else, and that is why he's not pursuing this with any great intensity. But that kind of thinking distorts my perspective entirely, and really does torture me. Then on *another* hand, he called me 'honey' on his message to me yesterday and said he was thinking strongly about me.
I think you said it all right here:
"closure and sadness sucks, but being stuck in relationship limbo is an emotional purgatory that will eat your brain and self-esteem."Is there really any more to say?
And yet---I keep saying more. : (
I really appreciate your support.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.