![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 20 to 44 of 54. Go back in thread:
Posted by terra miller on April 30, 2002, at 12:51:57
In reply to Re: Wellbutrin for the long haul? » JohnL, posted by Leighwit on April 25, 2002, at 10:45:52
i am taking wellbutrin ir alone, since i've found SSRI's to numb too much for me to make progress in therapy. it is agitating and has always been, but i deal with it and don't use caffeine.
i've felt more that the process of dissociating for me is what contributes to the fogging out.
anybody else wonder if it's symptoms of dissociation instead of longterm wellbutrin use that's the contributing factor for them?
interested to hear your thoughts.
~terra
Posted by katekite on April 30, 2002, at 13:54:42
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression? » katekite, posted by dove on April 30, 2002, at 12:43:16
Interesting. yes annoyance/irritation is most of my problems, or at least its what gets in the way of me getting a nice hug from my hubby. ie -- 'geez why can't he put away his socks? why would i want a hug. why can't he quit chewing so loud? no more hugs from him, hah.' something like that. LOL.
I was especially curious about verapamil because my dad is on it for blood pressure and he seemed more 'sweet' than I remembered him when he visited recently. I had independently wondered if verapamil had something to do with it.
Have you ever taken your blood pressure in early am, waking up? I did that the other day and was surprised its high then. Which is incidentally when I feel the grumpiest. But there's the chicken/egg thing there, hard to know.
kate
Posted by Leighwit on April 30, 2002, at 16:27:45
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression? » katekite, posted by dove on April 30, 2002, at 12:43:16
>I took Verapamil alone and my migraines disappeared with great speed and within two weeks I felt a change take over my whole mind. It was incredible, I called my Internal-Med Doc, raving and ranting about this miracle and he insisted it was merely due to the loss of the migraines, but I knew better. I started researching the med because I didn't believe what my doc had said, I had suffered from depression since around the age of 7.
>
> I found a few, very small studies and references to the utilization of Verapamil in bipolar patients with some beneficial efficiency; and found many references stating its lack of efficiency and limited application within the psycho-pharmaceutical arena of mental illness. Which sort of shocked me, but didn't completely crash all my theories and beliefs that it could be used in certain people with great results.
>
> I have stated this many times in the past, and will do so again, nothing--absolutely nothing--has ever come close to the amazing transformation I had with Verapamil. My goal in my med-treatment is to reach that state of mental health once again. However, I'm still searching, and have stated that I would like to give it another go at some point if none of these complicated med cocktails pan-out.
>
> I would encourage you to look into it, especially if you suffer from depression accompanied by annoyance, or aggravation. These were the key factors that subsided when I took it. And it was quick to act after reaching the goal dosage. It is not considered by any of my p-docs as a "useful" psycho-active med, but it sure was for me.
>
> Good Luck!
>
> dove
Dove ~I am so impressed that you are able to differentiate the side effects and define the characteristics of so many medications with such specificity ~ and remember them!
I can't remember one from another, and when I was using more than one AD (three was the max I mixed in a cocktail approach) I had a very hard time distinguishing the attritubes of one vs. another nor one without the other.
I printed this last post of yours so I won't forget to take it with me to the Pdoc. Since I most definitely experience irritability with my depression, your experience with Verapamil is very interesting to me. You mention that your goal is to experience the improvement you initially felt with Verapamil again. Did it not last very long?
Posted by Nuthatch on May 1, 2002, at 0:08:46
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression?, posted by Leighwit on April 30, 2002, at 16:27:45
I am really interested generally in this drugs vs. depression debate, and so pleased to see all the posts.
Last year I was on Celexa for depression but I remember around the same time having great difficulty in concentrating and slow thinking - I don't know if this was the depression or the drugs.
I didn't experience any physical (non-mental) sideffects.
I'm now depressed again and my doctor has suggested effexor xr, but I've researched it and it seems to have more sideffects than celexa. Any thoughts or advice?
I sometimes wonder if it's better to try and get by with exercise, although getting out of bed in the morning is a struggle...
Posted by dove on May 1, 2002, at 14:04:42
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression?, posted by Leighwit on April 30, 2002, at 16:27:45
Regarding keeping track of all the different meds and their effects on my life, I didn't start out that way. At one point, after many different meds and multiple med-combinations, I wanted to keep track of what was doing what.
I first went back through the P-Babble archives and located different milestones and my state of mind at the time, matched those posts up with my calendar, and tried to get a clear picture of the past. Then, I committed myself to keeping track of med increases/decreases, additions/subtractions, and my mental state of being on a daily basis via a short note on my calendar. I've slipped into once a week notes when I've been doing well and when I'm doing quite terribly. I keep it short and simple--otherwise I wouldn't do it at all. For example: Monday, May 1st: in the little square box I'll write "a.m. good; p.m. bad" followed by a down arrow indicating that the "p.m. bad" are my depressive symptoms.
I had to end my Verapamil experience due to the manner in which it was affecting my heart rate and rhythm in odd ways. However, I was told that these effects wouldn't prevent from me from trying it again sometime in the future. And no, its positive effect on my depression and aggression never decreased!
dove
Posted by Leighwit on May 1, 2002, at 16:27:20
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression? » Leighwit, posted by dove on May 1, 2002, at 14:04:42
I have resisted keeping track (on paper) of my experiences with one vs. another AD for various reasons. I'm not always religious in keeping my blood sugar log up-to-date and I suppose I consider that a more pressing area of non-performance (ha, ha).
That said, I can see in reading Dove's posts that there are significant advantages in keeping track of how one is feeling while taking these drugs ~ particularly when ramping up or when the side effects become disruptive or when you know the efficacy of the drug isn't where it needs to be. In other words, unless one is feeling great it's not a bad idea to be logging (I hate the word journaling so I'm avoiding it at all costs)or recording some basic data.
Posted by sl on May 2, 2002, at 9:14:28
In reply to Stupid from drugs or from depression?, posted by Ponder on April 26, 2002, at 11:43:53
Has anyone tried taking Gingko Biloba for this problem??
Posted by johnny1 on May 2, 2002, at 9:27:43
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression?, posted by sl on May 2, 2002, at 9:14:28
> Has anyone tried taking Gingko Biloba for this problem??
Got watch out for drug interaction with herbal medicine, you could be in for a surprise.
Posted by sl on May 2, 2002, at 9:30:36
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression?, posted by johnny1 on May 2, 2002, at 9:27:43
Well nokidding!!
That was sorta the point of posting.
Posted by dove on May 2, 2002, at 10:33:49
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression?, posted by sl on May 2, 2002, at 9:14:28
> Has anyone tried taking Gingko Biloba for this problem??
>
>Actually, yes; the idea came from this board and sent me searching in the "natural" med section of one of those big chain store/warehouses. My p-doc thought it wouldn't hurt either, and gave me the go ahead.
Gingko Biloba affected me within an hour, and not in a positive manner. I found less fog--more clarity; but an incredible increase of irritability and a very low threshold for any minor inconvenience or irritant. I felt very tightly wound, ready to spring and watch my head pop-off!
However, whenever I ramp-up with a nervous-system activating (rather than dampening) med--like fluoxetine (Prozac)--I feel the same way and I usually cut the dose in half and take it spread out over a good 12 hour period of time. I have tried this with the Gingko, but it still creates the same nervous havoc.
I plan to speak w/ my p-doc about this effect and see if he has any hypothesis regarding med-to-med interactions or maybe it's just not the right chemical for me....
Anyone else with experience utilizing Gingko Biloba within a med-cocktail? Or replacing one foggy-brain med for something like Gingko Biloba with positive results?
dove
Posted by sl on May 2, 2002, at 13:00:36
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs? Gingko? Irritation/Clarity, posted by dove on May 2, 2002, at 10:33:49
I just read back to see what you were on...and wow. I'd like to think I'd have less interaction merely because I'm on about 1/6 of the medications your on (e.g. ONE!).
Good to hear someone else thought of it tho...did you try the gingko at a lower dosage, tho, btw?I tend to think the interactions are med-specific tho, so I'm still hoping someone on Wb will answer....
sl
Posted by Pogo on May 2, 2002, at 23:23:00
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs? Gingko? Irritation/Clarity, posted by dove on May 2, 2002, at 10:33:49
I take a high dose of Ritalin for ADD. I tried
SJWort laced with Ginsing\Ginko which worked better for me than straight SJWort- calming my mind down and reducing the mental "Flat" times. I tried SJWort + Ginseng + Ginko, which got me nowhere. I seemed to get heart palpatations (which I forgot to tell my pnurse) and slight tremors in a particular finger of my left hand, which my pnurse picked up on, resulting in
a physical exam. I didn't like taking those herbs. When I stopped taking them, the palpations
and finger tremors stopped.For the past month, I've been taking Omega-3
supplements, 10 Grams Omega-3 (EPA + DHA).
It works a whole lot better for me than the Herbal
Remedies. The moods have flattend out, the "Flat"
mind does'nt at all rear its Ugly Head. I also
sleep a lot better since I stopped with the Herbal Remedies.In addition, I take Sam-e(s) to speed up the Ritalin. Sam-e acts fast for me, much like a cup
of coffee. I used drink coffee when on the Ritalin, but had real bad experience(s)- over stimulated.I never knew why my mind would go "Flat" like that, its very frustrating. When I'd go "Flat",
I'd struggle verbally, amoung other things.regards,
Pogo.
Posted by Phil on May 3, 2002, at 6:28:40
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs? Gingko? Irritation/Clarity, posted by dove on May 2, 2002, at 10:33:49
Always nice seeing your name. I just started on Gingko and bought the Twinlab time released. It seems to be helping and I haven't felt agitated. At least not more agitated than the Wellbutrin makes me. I bought it from www.Vitacost.com ...their prices are low. I got my vitamins and G in 2 days. My brother ordered the same day I did. He lives in Vegas and got his at the same time.
Twinlab daily one caps: 60ea. from grocery stores here are about 16.00. I got the 180 count for 21.00.
Posted by k9lover on May 3, 2002, at 7:36:13
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression?, posted by Leighwit on May 1, 2002, at 16:27:20
Hi
I also track mood (0-10) and drugs - on Excel. The little graphs I can produce then really show me that I'm either down or usually not as bad as I think I am and this is correlated with meds and events. It helps to have such an objective thing when often when I feel low, I think I'm always and permanently depressed - the chart always proves me wrong - a good thing!
Jan
Posted by Uppendown on May 3, 2002, at 11:10:12
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression?, posted by k9lover on May 3, 2002, at 7:36:13
.. tell ?
Hi Ya'll,
( It has been awhile... so please excuse..)
I'm VERY intersted in this topic/thread... I too have relied on my ability to write, and my intellect to accomplish much of what I have in my life, and when I started taking meds, I experienced much of what has been discussed in this thread.
I ended up quitting all meds, but that is another story.. I wanted to interject a thought into this discussion ( I hope it is okay!)..
I've been interested in these things for a long time now, and have done alot of informal research on it. I've lurked on numerous "mental health" message boards, as well as have participated in quite a few. The "side effects" of many of these meds are often discussed, and the experiences strikingly similar amoungst the users. I have very often read posts from individuals wishing they could be "like I used to be".. Cognition, socialiablity, work and other interpersonal relationships and abilty to "interact", weight gain, sexual dysfuntion, physical effects, etc are often listed, and complained about.
One thing that I "see" in many of these conversations is an absence of corrolating the extent to which the "side effects" of these meds, as listed above, contribute to the very symptoms the drugs are trying to relieve. Of course a once bright, witty, gregarious, attractive woman is going to be depressed when they gain a lot of weight, lose their "verve", can't think clearly, can't "feel" emotionally, and have been "indoctrinated" by a society and system that tells them they are "sick". ( This isn't meant to devalue the very real experiences we go through, independant of the "side effects" of these drugs, but is meant solely to try to get us to think about what it really is we're trying to "fix". NO offence intended!)
I tried a couple different meds, and could not stand the "dullness" and apathy they created in me. I tried others that I felt had very few "side effects". But I was so completely amazed when I finally quit cold turkey ( I know, not a "smart" thing to do, but I was desperate..), to find out the extent to which even THOSE meds had altered my ways of thinking and perception. While ON the drugs, and being "affected", it was impossible for me to see objectively what impacts they really were having. Even in self reporting or charting my moods, I was still hopelessly "subjective".
So.. part of what I'm responding to is exactly what the title of this thread is " Stupid from drugs or from depression" .. It might be re-written to say " Depressed from drugs making me stupid?"..
This isn't to say that drugs don't have value. They do. ( Although I have seen clinical, double blind research studies that show Zoloft, etc are no more effective than placebo..) But I think each of us needs to be VERY careful in first identifying what it is we are trying to "fix", before starting on a pharmocological treatment program. Are the sources of our depression, anxiety, panic, etc "situational".. as in caused by situations and circumstances in our life we may be reacting to in ways that therapy may help, or are there "other" issues involved. Even the idea of a "Chemical Imbalance" has yet to be proven. ( You'll note they use the phrases "might be", "is thought to be", etc..)..
So.. before you give your "life away" to these drugs, one approach might be to get some good professional help to specifically identify the sources of your "problems". No one pretends to "know".. everyone involved is just doing the best they can with the ever changing information, theories and concepts.
Best Wishes,
Uppendown
Posted by Ant-Rock on May 3, 2002, at 17:00:41
In reply to Stupid from drugs or from depression? How can you , posted by Uppendown on May 3, 2002, at 11:10:12
> .. tell ?
>
> Hi Ya'll,
>
> ( It has been awhile... so please excuse..)
>
> I'm VERY intersted in this topic/thread... I too have relied on my ability to write, and my intellect to accomplish much of what I have in my life, and when I started taking meds, I experienced much of what has been discussed in this thread.
>
> I ended up quitting all meds, but that is another story.. I wanted to interject a thought into this discussion ( I hope it is okay!)..
>
> I've been interested in these things for a long time now, and have done alot of informal research on it. I've lurked on numerous "mental health" message boards, as well as have participated in quite a few. The "side effects" of many of these meds are often discussed, and the experiences strikingly similar amoungst the users. I have very often read posts from individuals wishing they could be "like I used to be".. Cognition, socialiablity, work and other interpersonal relationships and abilty to "interact", weight gain, sexual dysfuntion, physical effects, etc are often listed, and complained about.
>
> One thing that I "see" in many of these conversations is an absence of corrolating the extent to which the "side effects" of these meds, as listed above, contribute to the very symptoms the drugs are trying to relieve. Of course a once bright, witty, gregarious, attractive woman is going to be depressed when they gain a lot of weight, lose their "verve", can't think clearly, can't "feel" emotionally, and have been "indoctrinated" by a society and system that tells them they are "sick". ( This isn't meant to devalue the very real experiences we go through, independant of the "side effects" of these drugs, but is meant solely to try to get us to think about what it really is we're trying to "fix". NO offence intended!)
>
> I tried a couple different meds, and could not stand the "dullness" and apathy they created in me. I tried others that I felt had very few "side effects". But I was so completely amazed when I finally quit cold turkey ( I know, not a "smart" thing to do, but I was desperate..), to find out the extent to which even THOSE meds had altered my ways of thinking and perception. While ON the drugs, and being "affected", it was impossible for me to see objectively what impacts they really were having. Even in self reporting or charting my moods, I was still hopelessly "subjective".
>
> So.. part of what I'm responding to is exactly what the title of this thread is " Stupid from drugs or from depression" .. It might be re-written to say " Depressed from drugs making me stupid?"..
>
> This isn't to say that drugs don't have value. They do. ( Although I have seen clinical, double blind research studies that show Zoloft, etc are no more effective than placebo..) But I think each of us needs to be VERY careful in first identifying what it is we are trying to "fix", before starting on a pharmocological treatment program. Are the sources of our depression, anxiety, panic, etc "situational".. as in caused by situations and circumstances in our life we may be reacting to in ways that therapy may help, or are there "other" issues involved. Even the idea of a "Chemical Imbalance" has yet to be proven. ( You'll note they use the phrases "might be", "is thought to be", etc..)..
>
> So.. before you give your "life away" to these drugs, one approach might be to get some good professional help to specifically identify the sources of your "problems". No one pretends to "know".. everyone involved is just doing the best they can with the ever changing information, theories and concepts.
>
> Best Wishes,
>
> UppendownHello Uppendown,
Do you know if the older Tricyclic AD's cause these same problems(apathy,numbness,cog-probs)?I know everyone is different, but in general terms.
Thank you,Ant-Rock
Posted by Cindylou on May 3, 2002, at 17:03:28
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression? » katekite, posted by dove on April 30, 2002, at 12:43:16
Hi Dove,
I am also very intrigued by this Verapamil, and actually faxed your message to my pdoc.I was wondering if it had any side effects for you -- did it make you fatigued? Are you able to tolerate other mood stabilizers like Lithium without fatigue? I think my pdoc said that Verapamil is mainly for Bipolar I (I'm BPII), and that it just works for people who respond to Lithium (I wasn't able to tolerate Lithium due to the fatigue.)
Thanks in advance! This is really interesting...
cindy
> > Can you post more on your experience with verapamil? What else were you on while taking it? How long did it take to have a beneficial effect? Since I have had some similar side effects to you as other drugs you've been on, I wonder how it would affect me.... I need to look into it.
> >
> >
>
> Verapamil was initially prescribed for my migraines with blackout/fainting aura. It was the first med that ever had a positive effect on my mind. Previously, I had been on Tegretol with disastrous effects (of which I've described all over this board throughout the last 3 or so years), and finally just said "no" and suffered from the migraines and concussions from the fainting until Verapamil entered my life.
>
> At the time, I was not receiving any help with my depression or other emotional 'issues'. I took Verapamil alone and my migraines disappeared with great speed and within two weeks I felt a change take over my whole mind. It was incredible, I called my Internal-Med Doc, raving and ranting about this miracle and he insisted it was merely due to the loss of the migraines, but I knew better. I started researching the med because I didn't believe what my doc had said, I had suffered from depression since around the age of 7.
>
> I found a few, very small studies and references to the utilization of Verapamil in bipolar patients with some beneficial efficiency; and found many references stating its lack of efficiency and limited application within the psycho-pharmaceutical arena of mental illness. Which sort of shocked me, but didn't completely crash all my theories and beliefs that it could be used in certain people with great results.
>
> I have stated this many times in the past, and will do so again, nothing--absolutely nothing--has ever come close to the amazing transformation I had with Verapamil. My goal in my med-treatment is to reach that state of mental health once again. However, I'm still searching, and have stated that I would like to give it another go at some point if none of these complicated med cocktails pan-out.
>
> I would encourage you to look into it, especially if you suffer from depression accompanied by annoyance, or aggravation. These were the key factors that subsided when I took it. And it was quick to act after reaching the goal dosage. It is not considered by any of my p-docs as a "useful" psycho-active med, but it sure was for me.
>
> Good Luck!
>
> dove
Posted by katekite on May 3, 2002, at 18:26:01
In reply to Stupid from drugs or from depression? How can you , posted by Uppendown on May 3, 2002, at 11:10:12
Excellent post! I went off neurontin cold turkey and realized within a couple days that it had really affected my control of my outward expression of my own moods. I did feel more relaxed on it but it was also disinhibiting and because I was relaxed on it, I didn't notice.
It is interesting you bring up to be clear before starting what symptom, or problem you are treating. Very true. The other day I was in my pdocs office and complained about being depressed around my period, PMS. He said, oh, after we get my stimulant for ADD figured out, no problem, we'll take care of the PMS. Later I thought, wait a second..... I was only complaining because I have PMS right now..... I don't need more meds for a problem that's only a problem a couple days a month..... wow I might have accidently gotten myself a whole new drug by accident.
Pdocs often will want to treat all the problems because they are able to.
(This post is not meant at all, in any way, to imply that PMS is not a severe problem for some people.)
kate
Posted by Ron Hill on May 3, 2002, at 18:58:56
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs? Gingko? Irritation/Clarity, posted by dove on May 2, 2002, at 10:33:49
> Gingko Biloba affected me within an hour, and not in a positive manner. I found less fog--more clarity; but an incredible increase of irritability and a very low threshold for any minor inconvenience or irritant. I felt very tightly wound, ready to spring and watch my head pop-off!
--------------------------Dove,
Thank you very much for posting your experience with ginkgo biloba. I'm bipolar II and I take 600 mg/day Lithobid and 200 mg/day SAM-e. In general, this cocktail works great for me. However, once in a while, I become extremely irritable and I flash into a rage. I have come to the conclusion that this irritability is caused by something in my vitamin/herb regimen (which includes ginseng and ginkgo biloba) because when I skip these supplements for a day, the foul mood goes away.
I have been trying to figure out which vitamins and/or herbs are the culprits. Your post provided me with some valuable information in this respect. Thank you.
-- Ron
Posted by Uppendown on May 3, 2002, at 20:27:39
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression? How can you » Uppendown, posted by Ant-Rock on May 3, 2002, at 17:00:41
Hi Ant-Rock,
As far as I have been able to determine, with about 5 years of very intensive, daily involvment in these issues, virtually all of these meds have very similar impacts on the individual psyche. The physical impacts vary, as in some are motabilized through the liver, and can cause physiological problems such as liver failure... But my concern is why these meds are prescribed in the first place.. and to what extent our caregivers recognized the impacts of these meds on us. It is no secret that we endure very significant "side effects" from these meds... And as much as I believe that our caregivers mean only the best for us, they don't go through the "experiences" we do.. virtually all of the docs are "book learned". It is to their credit that they work so hard, spend so many hours trying to help us... but upon *what* do they base their advice.. their prescriptions to us ??? You need not take my "word" for any of this, just spend a couple days reading past posts on ANY mental health message board to get a feel for how many people are not doing "well" on these meds. Obviously a "refinement" is needed ! Go back weeks... months... years... ( this thread goes back to 99 ! ) .. you will see EXACTLY the same "complaints" ! Ya HAFTA ask, "why?" " What are the common denominators between all these people, spanning all this time??".
Nobody knows the "answer"... Nobody can tell you it is a "chemical imbalance" .. it is all still just unproven theory.. Yet so many are put on these powerful drugs, which alter their lives. Of that, there is little doubt. For some it is a definate "improvement", but for many, the results are "worse". You can determine this for yourself, easily... read these message boards... or review the results of clinical studies ( I'll send you URLs, if you want..) ..
My issue is solely " For *what* are these meds being prescribed?" .. I know some people *need* meds... but I also "see" very clearly that the impacts of taking them need to be recognized, and aknowledged. It ISN'T like you pop a pill, and your life is suddenly "better". "Better" is subjective, and comes with a "price"...
Please feel free to post to me if you want URLs for further research, or .. if you think I can add to your thoughts in any way..
Best Wishes,
Uppendown
Posted by Uppendown on May 3, 2002, at 20:57:04
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression? How can you » Uppendown, posted by katekite on May 3, 2002, at 18:26:01
Hi Kate,
Thank you for your kind words.. I really appreciate your insights... Really !
I've done a LOT of research into these issues... Once I was diagnosed, I *needed* to know what the basis was/were for what those various docs' pronouncements and advice was based upon. Because of my PTSD, I'm pretty suspiciuos by nature .. LOL!
I've spent hours talking with a great number of "professionals" in the mental health biz... I personally have been in pretty intensive "therapy", and fortunately had good people.. docs... I worked with. I have NO complaints with the "help" I got... but I do have honest and sincere questions about how most people are diagnosed and "treated". I sincerely believe, based on alot of time, effort and experience/investigation, that a very large percentage of the people currently on psychotropic drugs... not only *shouldn't* be on them... not only are being negatively impacted by those drugs... but in fact would be better "served" with other therapuetic approaches ! I don't say these things lightly! I say them out of very sincere concern. I have talked to very many people, for a long time now... and it disturbs me very much to see so much "unneccessary" suffering. As well intentioned as the caregivers may be, the impacts, on a daily basis, for so many people, is just so upsetting.. All I'm trying to do is to get people to *just THINK*.. HONESTLY... about what the sources of their problems and upset really are. I am also uncomfortable with societys' propensity for "quick fixes"... that this magic pill or that will "solve" the problems in their lives. If only that were true. But I've yet to see it.
And... I TOTALLY agree with you... I don't mean to diminish, in ANY way, the very real suffering we go through. Believe me, I really do know. I just see so many of us lead down a path that promises "solutions" that we all see are rarely "delivered".
Again, thank you for your thoughtful post...
Best Wishes,
Uppendown
Posted by Leighwit on May 4, 2002, at 11:08:30
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression? How can , posted by Uppendown on May 3, 2002, at 20:57:04
Uppendown,
I think much of what you've written is unarguable. The problem is, IMO, that the "alternatives" are even less impressive. Those of us who have struggled with side effects and various degrees of efficacy in psychotropic medications for a number of years (over ten in my case) have most often (I presume) tried other treatment options.
Nutritional, herbal, psychotherapeutic, physical (exercise, acupuncture)and a host of other treatments have proven fruitless for me.
Have the medications done much better? Yes and no. At times, they have lifted me out of a very deep abyss, yet always with significant discomfort (side effects). At other times, they've been barely worth the cost of the side effects.
Overall, I'd say today's psychotropic drugs are mediocre at best. The insulin I take daily and have since childhood is incomparable to AD meds, yet I cannot help but compare them since I use them both every day of my life. One is an incredible blessing, the other an incredible compromise.
Are too many people taking these medications unnecessarily? Probably. But that's not the foremost issue, is it? People taking ADs who don't really need them, will in all likelihood discontinue them rather easily. First, they won't "hit the wall" with debilitating depression symptoms when they stop them. Second, they won't take them if they don't need them, because we all know that these drugs (by and large) stink. It's not like they're recreational drugs with an enjoyment factor. People who don't need ADs won't stay on them very long. They'll diagnose themselves and find better physicians with better and more appropriate therapies ~ because they're able to. Those that CAN, will. Are there exceptions? Absolutely. But I don't think they are significant in overall number.
Those of us who cannot function productively without some of these medications and yet are suffering daily because of their overall ineffectiveness and/or horrendous side effects are the more important category of people for whom we should be concerned. It is these people who have legitimate trouble helping themselves.
I guess it's all a matter of degree. Depressed people, however, regardless of their walks in life, seem unwilling or unable to stand up and scream for relief. To demand that our country put major clinical depression (actually, mental illness in general) in the top percentage of federally funded medical research. More drugs come down the pike without any real change in the quality of their performance. They're simply more tolerable (easier to take) than the older drugs and Pdocs love that. Patients, however, aren't jumping up and down with high praise for the SSRIs as opposed to the older drug categories ~ not those that have used them for more than a year or two. Why? Because more pharmaceuticals are not the answer until we better understand the cause(s)of various forms of mental illness. It's all about the quality and extent of the research. Garbage In/Garbage Out.
I didn't mean to come off as cynical. I merely think that we're covering a very, very broad topic here and sometimes it gets too verbose to really accomplish much.
>
>
> I have NO complaints with the "help" I got... but I do have honest and sincere questions about how most people are diagnosed and "treated". I sincerely believe, based on alot of time, effort and experience/investigation, that a very large percentage of the people currently on psychotropic drugs... not only *shouldn't* be on them... not only are being negatively impacted by those drugs... but in fact would be better "served" with other therapuetic approaches ! I don't say these things lightly! I say them out of very sincere concern. I have talked to very many people, for a long time now... and it disturbs me very much to see so much "unneccessary" suffering. As well intentioned as the caregivers may be, the impacts, on a daily basis, for so many people, is just so upsetting.. All I'm trying to do is to get people to *just THINK*.. HONESTLY... about what the sources of their problems and upset really are. I am also uncomfortable with societys' propensity for "quick fixes"... that this magic pill or that will "solve" the problems in their lives. If only that were true. But I've yet to see it.
>
> And... I TOTALLY agree with you... I don't mean to diminish, in ANY way, the very real suffering we go through. Believe me, I really do know. I just see so many of us lead down a path that promises "solutions" that we all see are rarely "delivered".
>
> Again, thank you for your thoughtful post...
>
> Best Wishes,
>
> Uppendown
Posted by dove on May 4, 2002, at 13:59:21
In reply to Dove- Verapamil? » dove, posted by Cindylou on May 3, 2002, at 17:03:28
>
> I am also very intrigued by this Verapamil, and actually faxed your message to my pdoc.
>
> I was wondering if it had any side effects for you -- did it make you fatigued? Are you able to tolerate other mood stabilizers like Lithium without fatigue? I think my pdoc said that Verapamil is mainly for Bipolar I (I'm BPII), and that it just works for people who respond to Lithium (I wasn't able to tolerate Lithium due to the fatigue.)
>
>
Firstly, I must say that I have never received such positive responses to my Verapamil postings. I thank you for the time you've spent reading my posts and am speechless regarding the fact that you faxed my message to your p-doc! Not in a negative way, just the thought of a p-doc reading my ramblings seems too surreal, comedic and bizarre--all at the same time =o)Secondly, my p-docs (more than one) have never felt I would do well--at all--on Lithium, and even when I've inquired about giving it a short trial they all responded with definite "No way!". Which is weird, considering all the other meds they've been willing to experiment with and in such crazy combinations too!
Unfortunately, I don't recall the actual word-for-word (quote unquote) reasoning behind this decision other than the fact that they believed that my *very* negative experience with Tegretol was not promising for a positive response to Lithium.
Thirdly, I would need a full wash-out (in my p-doc's opinion) of all the other meds I was taking at the time in order to initiate the lithium.
Fourthly, they still disagreed on the dx of BPI, due to the fact that they could not pinpoint even one full-fledged manic episode. ADHD and Major Depressive Disorder (long-term on both accounts) seemed more likely and more pressing in their immediate deteriorative effects on my life. At one point, they thought that I could possibly have Ultra Rapid Cycling BP I or II or ? with the manic part being more of an agitated, frustrated, angry and animated mania.
As in, I felt no euphoria, no elation, just discontentment fueled by a little more than my usual amount brain energy. Furthermore, these episodes didn't persist longer than 24 hours, and usually lasted only part of the day.
Verapamil did cause some fatigue--if I remember correctly, and I'm really trying to--in the beginning. It can also slow down the digestive system, cause dry mouth, constipation, a need to watch how much fluid you're losing during the warmer months of the year or when working out.
Verapamil enabled me *to* exercise, and I doubled (at least doubled) my water and fluid intake, and I had the clarity of mind to start slow and find how hard my body could work and still feel good--feel better than good.
So, I was able to counteract many of the reported negative side-effects that sometimes accompany Verapamil. The only other "mood-stabilizers" I've been able to tolerate are klonopin and Neurontin, although, neither of those are the first-choice standards for their mood-stabilizing abilities (according to my p-docs).
I hope this isn't too much rambling, just trying to be very clear about my experiences.
dove
Posted by dove on May 4, 2002, at 14:13:36
In reply to Re: Gingko? Irritation/Clarity » dove, posted by Ron Hill on May 3, 2002, at 18:58:56
>
> However, once in a while, I become extremely irritable and I flash into a rage. I have come to the conclusion that this irritability is caused by something in my vitamin/herb regimen (which includes ginseng and ginkgo biloba) because when I skip these supplements for a day, the foul mood goes away.
>
>I was also taking a multivitamin that included little add-ons like chromium, gingko biloba, guarana, kava-kava, and ginseng. It definitively caused me agitation and I've not taken any multivitamin containing herbs since.
So, I would second your conclusions =o)
dove
Posted by dove on May 4, 2002, at 14:27:31
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression? How can , posted by Uppendown on May 3, 2002, at 20:57:04
I have really only one point to make, which doesn't oppose yours, but does recognize the difference between broad and narrow.
These psychotropic meds will and do cause very serious side-effects, and these uncomfortable symptoms are often suffered by people throughout a good amount of time. I would counter this with the fact that the people I know who have schizophrenia *hate* their meds which cause them to be "flat" and often zombie-like, but they cannot function *whatsoever* without them. We would not recommend the discontinuation of these meds based on their unpleasant side-effects knowing that they will do themselves or others more harm without them.
For me, meds--even the ones I have found unpleasant--have kept me from doing myself bodily harm as I had done in the past without them. I hope to one day be med-free, but I also want to raise my family, remained married, be able to function on some sort of social degree; and not have scars all over my body, nor be hospitalized due to lame ODs, nor have mental and nervous breakdowns in my front yard.
Right here, right now, the meds are vital, and I cannot--will not battle another 10 years of bleeding misery and death without them. But my respect goes to you for your perspective, insights, and the gracious manner in which you expressed them. They were/are thought provoking and a good counterpoint, that aided me greatly in cementing my own view on my current med-taking =o)
dove
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.