![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 23 to 47 of 51. Go back in thread:
Posted by Alan on December 5, 2002, at 16:36:52
In reply to Re: Social Anxiety in OZ (Damn Benzophobes) » Squiggles, posted by Squiggles on December 5, 2002, at 15:17:55
> One primary point i forgot to make
> about all this Alan: the impact of
> benzos on my life.
>
> I believe, as Ray Nimmo explained to me,
> and as i now see in retrospect, i would
> never have been diagnosed as bipolar if
> i had not taken Valium for exam jitters.
> The withdrawals may have mimicked manic
> depression. Consequently, i would never
> have lost my thyroid function, never taken
> Klonopin, never taken Xanax, never had
> panic attacks, never ruined my academic
> career, never lost my final job, and basically
> never have ruined my life.
>
> Squiggles
============================================And this is exactly what is wrong with Ray Nimo's ideology - ANY idealogy. Anyone can make an argument for what one specific thing ruined their life if they choose to blame the drug (which in your individual case and a RELATIVELY few others, it perhaps may have been) but to extrapolate as he has that because this thing happened to you that bzds are the spawn of the devil exclusive of all other possibilities - and therefore for everyone else - is pure nonsense.
You were misdiagnosed and mismanaged. If I took seroquel because I was misdiagnosed with something and sufferered greatly for it, would I more likely find fault with the drug or the doctor? If valium withdrawal was misdignosed as Bi polar then why blame the valium? As you've described it, you were mismanaged, misdiagnosed AND misprescribed...a literal "hat trick".
I could do the same for AD's. Sure they've caused a lot of loss in my life and I could therefore blame the entire class of drug itself. OR I could find out why I was misprescribed, misdiagnosed and mismanaged. That I finally did...commercial interests trumping medicine.
Perhaps you won't be as fortunate as I, not finding a personally satisfying, conclusive answer and I suppose therefore you may always wonder. It's a terrible bind to be in and I'm not saying this to patronise but out of compassion.
We share a lot I suppose. Moreso than perhaps we understand through this sterile medium of the internet. But I see no meaningful purpose, no positivism, no hope, in universalising for all others via personal stories and exploiting them for their own political zeal as benzo.com does. It's zealotry, it's a crusade...I'm reminded of the rotating symbol at the bottom of the home page of benzo.org with the symbols of the fish and cross.
On top of everything else I've read and seen done with the information used on that site to scare people by exaggerating overall risk, that symbol seems to sum it's approach up for me.
I am not interested in "using" you as a devil's advocate. I only assert from what I know in response to the misunderstandings about the medication and it's usage.
Are there cases of the drug causing harm? Sure? Any more than any other drug - even when prescribed and managed properly? NO. And that's my point. The jury of 50 years is in and it looks good for those in the general population that take bzds short or long term. Its the quality, not quantity of life in your years. Why suffer needlessly when there are choices.
The problem is that if the choices are witheld there is an inherent loss of freedom for the patient to choose their own destiny.
That is if they are even aware there are choices in the first place. Anti-benzo zealotry as practiced by these kinds of organisations take away choice for the doctor and patient either via political pressure or on purely moral grounds. The claims to scientific or medical authenticity are so overwhelmingly in favor of using bzds on an equal footing with other medications that it's not even close.
Hence the title of this thread and the impetus for this discussion to even exist.
Best,
Alan
Posted by Alan on December 5, 2002, at 16:48:58
In reply to Regarding Benzophobia, posted by Alan on December 5, 2002, at 16:36:52
Doctors have little or no knowledge about how to use the BDZs, even as they explore a new psychiatric drug every month that claims to treat anxiety diorders/panic.
It took me several years on my own (and with guidance from a doc that knows them as well as anyone) to really learn how to work with my bzds, and I am still learning more. It is completely unrealistic to expect that a busy family doctor is going to get intimate with a new psychotropic a month -- with many of them being used for panic disorder.
There is no real scientific literature on drugs as it is almost always biased by financial interests. This was always the case, but doctors did make up their own minds after a while and a sort of collective wisdom emerged...as is now being seen with the bzds and the bias against them. They've been the whipping boy of the competeing AD's for over 12 years now, the AD promotions starting just in time as the backlash of overprescribing bzds was finally easing and the drug was being understood for what it could do for many.
Practicing proper medicine it seems seeks to achieve the standard of care in our communities as the baseline. So there is a tendency towards a herd mentality. In depth understanding seems to have given way to a more shallow familiarity with trends. I just seem to keep digging deeper into just what bzds will and won't do and how best to use them in my individual case.
Posted by Alan on December 5, 2002, at 16:59:13
In reply to Re: Social Anxiety in OZ (Damn Benzophobes) » Alan, posted by Squiggles on December 5, 2002, at 13:48:59
> You seem determined to put the onus on
> any other cause BUT the benzodiazepine
> addiction and withdrawal problem.
>
> So, it looks like I WILL have to rehash
> and reserve the research. I will try
> to prepare something that covers your
> posts, but i want you to give me some
> kind of proof first that you are not infact
> cognizant of part of this party or knowledge
> is you like; that is that you are not infact
> using me for devil's advocacy. Cause i'm
> really tired of this... hope you understand;
>
> Squiggles
=============================================I am not exactly sure what is meant by this but I'll dance with you as long as you like. I'll let you know when I give up.
Better yet, why don't we just agree to disagree? It's all there for people to read from before. Let the readers of this bboard decide for themselves. I'm not here to talk only AT you (no offense) but to relate my understanding of the situation as I perceive it in the hopes of providing some form of positivism where there is some. Some hope-giving for those that I find in similar situations as I in the past.
If I had (as many others have similarly experienced) been still duking it out on AD's and everything else BUT bzds at this point, I would have lost everything: my job, my relationships, my life possibly.
Alan
Posted by Squiggles on December 5, 2002, at 17:10:10
In reply to Regarding Benzophobia, posted by Alan on December 5, 2002, at 16:36:52
I see your point. Nothing is certain
of course, but your perspective as you
describe it has certainly plagued my
thoughts; part of the problem in these
gray area cases, is that you can't test
for the diagnosis; indeed, you can't (in
my case and many others) even take the
person off the drugs to see the result.So, inadvertenlty, in cases of doubt,
the manic depressive must remain so;
the unipolar may be switched to another
AD, but certainly cannot be taken off
after many years of taking the drug.
And in the case of schizophrenia or
psychoses, i wonder how many women for
example, have not had post-pratum depression
mistaken for something else.A wrong diagnosis which goes on treated
as such for a long time can be devastating.
Once a schizophrenic, always a schizophrenic.These are practical problems with pretty
severe life-long consequences. I cannot
blame Ray for being so ideological; as
for his swirling fish -- i never could
take it seriously. He has such a great
sense of humour, that i think he put it there
to do a one-upmanship on Rand's. I think
Ray's is a lot more frisky. LOLThanks for your kind words.
Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on December 5, 2002, at 17:39:14
In reply to Re: Social Anxiety in OZ (Damn Benzophobes) » Squiggles, posted by Alan on December 5, 2002, at 16:59:13
OK. But I'm always ready for the next match.
You have a very sincere and soothing tone --
i don't mean that you have put me to sleep,
but i do feel like letting my end go for a
while.Squiggles
Posted by bluedog on December 6, 2002, at 3:23:10
In reply to Re: Regarding Benzophobia - PS., posted by Alan on December 5, 2002, at 16:48:58
> Doctors have little or no knowledge about how to use the BDZs, even as they explore a new psychiatric drug every month that claims to treat anxiety diorders/panic.
>
> It took me several years on my own (and with guidance from a doc that knows them as well as anyone) to really learn how to work with my bzds, and I am still learning more. It is completely unrealistic to expect that a busy family doctor is going to get intimate with a new psychotropic a month -- with many of them being used for panic disorder.
>
> There is no real scientific literature on drugs as it is almost always biased by financial interests. This was always the case, but doctors did make up their own minds after a while and a sort of collective wisdom emerged...as is now being seen with the bzds and the bias against them. They've been the whipping boy of the competeing AD's for over 12 years now, the AD promotions starting just in time as the backlash of overprescribing bzds was finally easing and the drug was being understood for what it could do for many.
>
> Practicing proper medicine it seems seeks to achieve the standard of care in our communities as the baseline. So there is a tendency towards a herd mentality. In depth understanding seems to have given way to a more shallow familiarity with trends. I just seem to keep digging deeper into just what bzds will and won't do and how best to use them in my individual case.
>
>
>Hi Alan
Thankyou for your views on this topic. I'm just wondering whether you could share some of your experience as how to properly work with the benzo's? I would really appreciate this.
What Benzo's have you taken during the years?
I am currently on Diazepam for social anxiety? I am in the experimental stage as to how to get this drug to work best for me.
I currently take 2.5mg Diazepam at night and another 2.5mg in the morning.
Is this enough to treat my social anxiety?
Would 5mg at night and 5mg in the morning be a better combination?
Or perhaps 5mg at night, 2.5mg in the morning and 2.5mg in the afternoon?
Is it best to take it with food or better to take it on an empty stomach between meals?I definitely found the 1st couple of weeks of taking Diazepam the hardest and I had to exercise discipline not to take more because it initially gave me a bit of euphoria but fortunately that has settled down and now and this so called addictive craving effect has passed and I now consider the drug as helpful and as healing for my condition as my generic Prozac at 20mg per day and I no longer give it a second thought. I find the Diazepam and the Prozac very complimentary as the Prozac is activating whilst the Diazepam reduces my anxiety giving my mind sufficient rest to start the healing process. This includes giving me restful and healing sleep! I do NOT believe that the Diazepam interferes with my natural sleep cycle because I am still dreaming (and recalling my dreams) and I am waking up refreshed and without any drowsiness! In fact since starting the Diazepam I am actually MORE alert during the day with HEAPS more stamina and concentration!
I noticed that Benzo's are also now used to treat chronic fatigue syndrome which as I mentioned above I am also suffering from. See the attached link as an example http://www.immunesupport.com/library/showarticle.cfm/id/3154/searchtext/klonopin/
I fully agree with you that proper treatment means getting the right diagnosis and then the doctors practicing responsible medicine by using the right medications for the right illnesses. In other words it boils down to professional and competent medical management which unfortunately is in rather short supply in western society.
Looking forward to your response to my questions
regards
bluedog
Posted by joy on December 6, 2002, at 9:50:54
In reply to Re: Social Anxiety in OZ (Damn Benzophobes) » Alan, posted by Squiggles on December 5, 2002, at 8:46:49
Squiggles,
Please abstain from the holier than thou attitude. Many doctors will not prescribe benzos, and they do help most people. I have a life now because of Xanax, and I take less than when I started. My family doc won't prescribe it, I have to go to a shrink to get it. Alan is entitled to post what he did. Everyone has to do what they think is right; we all have doctors. He was not telling people what to do. I'm sorry you had problems with the benzos, but I've had problems with the ADs that are frequently prescribed and handed out like candy. You should try to see the other point of view. I am trying to understand yours.
Joy
Posted by Squiggles on December 6, 2002, at 12:16:57
In reply to Re: Social Anxiety in OZ (Damn Benzophobes) » Squiggles, posted by joy on December 6, 2002, at 9:50:54
Joy,
I don't know why you consider my attitude
as such; whatever i report about benzos
is from my experience, which does coincide
with the experience of some other people;
but to be fair, i don't have any statistics.As for ADs, i have a friend whom i have seen
has had trouble getting off one AD for another,
but nothing in comparison to benzos -- again,
it would take more than just a few people
to answer Alan's retort 'FOR YOU PERHAPS';
There are other variables to any drug state,
but when you take the intervening variables
away, a clearer picture may emerge.Squiggles
Posted by Alan on December 6, 2002, at 16:57:55
In reply to Re: Regarding Benzophobia - PS. » Alan, posted by bluedog on December 6, 2002, at 3:23:10
> Hi Alan
>
> Thankyou for your views on this topic. I'm just wondering whether you could share some of your experience as how to properly work with the benzo's? I would really appreciate this.
>
> What Benzo's have you taken during the years?
Over the last 20 years I've undergone clinical trials with Klonopin, Valium, Ativan, and Xanax. Presently on klonopin maintainence at .5mg 3X's a day and ativan 1mg 3X's a day.
>
> I am currently on Diazepam for social anxiety? I am in the experimental stage as to how to get this drug to work best for me.
>
> I currently take 2.5mg Diazepam at night and another 2.5mg in the morning.
> Is this enough to treat my social anxiety?
> Would 5mg at night and 5mg in the morning be a better combination?
> Or perhaps 5mg at night, 2.5mg in the morning and 2.5mg in the afternoon?
> Is it best to take it with food or better to take it on an empty stomach between meals?According to dosing instructions you are at the relatively LOW end of the spectrum since the range is 2 - 10mg's, 2 - 4 times daily. That's between 4 and 40 mgs sum total.
The only way to know what works best for you is to perform your own clinical trial. No one can tell you how you will do based on a preconcieved template for what is given as a "statistical average". You are not a statistic afterall.
You will have to be able to distinguish between the feelings of withdrawal and the return of your orginal symptoms (both being anxiety but slightly different types - one will be distinguishable as drug induced with a little experience). Knowing this will tell you when the drug has or is beginning to lose it's theraputic effect. Only then will you know when and how much to titrate your dosage. This is what mixes many up.
I've tried klonopin 2, 3, and 4X's a day and found a level that felt comfortable to treat my GAD symptoms.
The caveat being, anxiety fluctuates, waxes and wanes, at varying degrees and speeds over time. So three times a day may be fine but you may find some weeks or months needing to add a little before bed or in the middle of the day. That is alright. Only if the dose suddenly escalates rapidly from 10 to let's say 40 -50 mgs in a few days would I become concerneed that the med is not right for you.
>
> I definitely found the 1st couple of weeks of taking Diazepam the hardest and I had to exercise discipline not to take more because it initially gave me a bit of euphoria but fortunately that has settled down and now and this so called addictive craving effect has passed and I now consider the drug as helpful and as healing for my condition as my generic Prozac at 20mg per day and I no longer give it a second thought. I find the Diazepam and the Prozac very complimentary as the Prozac is activating whilst the Diazepam reduces my anxiety giving my mind sufficient rest to start the healing process. This includes giving me restful and healing sleep! I do NOT believe that the Diazepam interferes with my natural sleep cycle because I am still dreaming (and recalling my dreams) and I am waking up refreshed and without any drowsiness! In fact since starting the Diazepam I am actually MORE alert during the day with HEAPS more stamina and concentration!This "euphoric" effect is usually not a craving per se but a relief of symptoms. There's a HUGE distinction that needs to be made, usually is not, and the fear of "addiction" suddenly becomes the boogeyman. I hope that you understand the difference between "addiction" and sustained medical dependence.
If you are fine at your current dose then stay there. But if the anxiety waxes and wanes you may need to titrate your dosage.
The different bzds act differently for different individuals - just like any other psychotropic. Here is a bzd eqiv. chart for you:
http://www.dr-bob.org/tips/bzd.html
If you want to "exchange out" one for the other there is a system to follow that many docs also do not know how to use. But it's too involved to go into here...
Best,
Alan
>
> I noticed that Benzo's are also now used to treat chronic fatigue syndrome which as I mentioned above I am also suffering from. See the attached link as an example http://www.immunesupport.com/library/showarticle.cfm/id/3154/searchtext/klonopin/
>
> I fully agree with you that proper treatment means getting the right diagnosis and then the doctors practicing responsible medicine by using the right medications for the right illnesses. In other words it boils down to professional and competent medical management which unfortunately is in rather short supply in western society.
>
> Looking forward to your response to my questions
>
> regards
> bluedog
>
>
Posted by Squiggles on December 6, 2002, at 17:18:06
In reply to Re: Regarding Benzophobia - PS. » bluedog, posted by Alan on December 6, 2002, at 16:57:55
Re: Benzo Equivalence Chart
http://www.dr-bob.org/tips/bzd.html
I don't mean to be too intrusive here, but
i recognize the benzo equivalence chart.
That's because i worked on such charts with
Ray Nimmo and David Woolfe and Jan. I recall
that we were struggling with a number of
equivalence presentations and had queries
over how they differed from one medical text
to another. If I remember correctly, we
finally settled on Dr. Heather Ashton's
equivalence chart as the fairest, on account
of the clonazepam being given a higher
value than alprazolam. Of course, the
comparison is arbitrary from a pharmarcological
point view, as the effect on the state to
be corrected or reversed is what counts - and
that varies with individuals.It's quite a coincidence to find it here
and it makes me wonder if you people weren't
working there all along (Benzoland that is).Squiggles
Posted by Alan on December 6, 2002, at 18:25:27
In reply to Re: Regarding Benzophobia - PS. » Alan, posted by Squiggles on December 6, 2002, at 17:18:06
> Re: Benzo Equivalence Chart
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/tips/bzd.html
>
> I don't mean to be too intrusive here, but
> i recognize the benzo equivalence chart.
> Of course, the
> comparison is arbitrary from a pharmarcological
> point view, as the effect on the state to
> be corrected or reversed is what counts - and
> that varies with individuals.
>
> It's quite a coincidence to find it here
> and it makes me wonder if you people weren't
> working there all along (Benzoland that is).
>
> Squiggles
================================================
Very dry wit there Squiggles!I doubt that the authors, Mssrs Plunkett and also the staff at "Clinical Handbook of Psychotropic Drugs, 4th revised edition, Bezchlibnyk-Butler et al. editors (Clarke Insitute of Psychiatry, Toronto), Hogrefe & Huber", ever thought of consulting with or have ever looked at the benzo.org website - but WHO knows (no pun intended).
IMHO the reality of these anti-benzo websites are that they are practicing fear-mongering (the intentional creating of fear).If these types of sites are where people with a problem come and find a solution, then that would not be fear-mongering.
The fear-mongering I see is when that relationship gets turned on its head -- it's not a problem in search of a solution, it's a solution in search of a problem.
That would be when anyone goes out and changes or steers the topic of just about every discussion about benzodiazapines into past, present, or imminent addiction to benzodiazepines. That would be when people receive scary messages telling them that benzodiazepines will ruin their health and their sanity and make them "drug addicts". The implication is clear with the "A" word freely used in the pejorative with heroin and cocaine - with no mention of the distinction between addiction and sustained medical dependence and the dumbing down of the distinction of drug classifications from schedule IV to schedule I.
Say what you want about my frequent harping on the neglected role of doctors to know their stuff - esp. regarding bzds. I don't claim it applies to everyone because it doesn't. And at least it's an inherently positive message that offers hope rather than dread. In fact, it's a message that has led some people to blessed relief of thier symptoms after being denied the very medication that was desiged specifically to treat anxiety disorders.
Alan
Posted by Squiggles on December 6, 2002, at 19:21:44
In reply to About Benzo's and positivism:, posted by Alan on December 6, 2002, at 18:25:27
Well,
just in case you guys want to peak and
you are too busy to go there, here is a
good sample on the benzos at least:
http://www.benzo.org.uk/profash.htm
btw, i notice your use of the term "positivism"
-- are you using it in a philosophical sense
or just trying to cheer us up?Squiggles
Posted by Alan on December 6, 2002, at 19:38:11
In reply to Re: About Benzo's and positivism: » Alan, posted by Squiggles on December 6, 2002, at 19:21:44
> Well,
>
> just in case you guys want to peak and
> you are too busy to go there, here is a
> good sample on the benzos at least:
>
>
> http://www.benzo.org.uk/profash.htm
>
>
> btw, i notice your use of the term "positivism"
> -- are you using it in a philosophical sense
> or just trying to cheer us up?
>
> Squiggles
===============================================I would guess that the two are not mutually exclusive.
If you want to see how most that visit the website are greeted, you may want to try the homepage too:
Posted by bluedog on December 6, 2002, at 20:35:52
In reply to Re: Regarding Benzophobia - PS. » bluedog, posted by Alan on December 6, 2002, at 16:57:55
>
> > I am currently on Diazepam for social anxiety? I am in the experimental stage as to how to get this drug to work best for me.
> >
> > I currently take 2.5mg Diazepam at night and another 2.5mg in the morning.
> > Is this enough to treat my social anxiety?
> > Would 5mg at night and 5mg in the morning be a better combination?
> > Or perhaps 5mg at night, 2.5mg in the morning and 2.5mg in the afternoon?
> > Is it best to take it with food or better to take it on an empty stomach between meals?
>
> According to dosing instructions you are at the relatively LOW end of the spectrum since the range is 2 - 10mg's, 2 - 4 times daily. That's between 4 and 40 mgs sum total.
>
> The only way to know what works best for you is to perform your own clinical trial. No one can tell you how you will do based on a preconcieved template for what is given as a "statistical average". You are not a statistic afterall.
>Thankyou very much for your advice Alan. I really appreciate it.
>
> This "euphoric" effect is usually not a craving per se but a relief of symptoms. There's a HUGE distinction that needs to be made, usually is not, and the fear of "addiction" suddenly becomes the boogeyman. I hope that you understand the difference between "addiction" and sustained medical dependence.
>
> >Yes!!! I definitely know the difference. I used to be addicted to alcohol. If there is a substance that has the potential to be "evil" then alcohol is it (I don't really believe that alcohol is evil as such but just that when someone is addicted to it "evil" things can occur with it's (ab)use). Whats more, alcohol is completeley legal and you don't even need a prescription to obtain it. At the height of my addiction, even after just one or two drinks I would desperateley drive around town trying to find a "bottle shop" that was open so that I could get some more (this could be at 2am or 3am in the morning). At parties I used to be completeley pre-occupied about where the next drink was coming from and I used to get frustrateted when the host didn't offer the next drink fast enough for my liking.
The Diazepam does cause me to behave in such an innappropriate way. Yes, I was initially reluctant to try Diazepam because it had taken me a lot of effort to break my alcohol addiction and I was frightened that I would be substititing one addiction for another especially having heard all the "horror" stories about the benzo's. However once I started researching this issue and looked at balanced, reasonable information on the issue my views changed rather rapidly. I realised that benzo "addiction" really only occured due to medical mis-management and especially because benzo's have been handed out like candy by doctors in the past for completeley innapropriate illness or conditions. It's exactly the same problem that has been created by doctors handing out antibiotics like candy for every little sniff or cough that patients present with. And we all know the results of this medical mismanagement with immune systems being devastated and bacterial organisms mutating into superbugs because of chronic over-prescription of the antibiotics. This is ALL because it's much easier and much more profitable for doctors to write out a prescription than to actually spend time and effort finding out what is truly wrong with a patient.
Anyway the end result of my research is that I decided to give the benzos a try and I am glad that I did. In fact since commencing with Diazepam I can have a couple of drinks again and not even give the matter another thought. It is such an absolute relief to be able to focus on the conversations at a party rather than obsessing about the next drink. I DEFINITELY attribute this to the Diazepam relieving my social anxiety symptoms. In other words I believe it causes a true THERAPEUTIC effect in my system.
As for the sustained medical dependance. Well I also know exactly what this is. I experienced this in it's full glory when I tapered off effexor.
Thanks again for your input Alan. I really appreciate it.
best wishes
bluedog
> > I noticed that Benzo's are also now used to treat chronic fatigue syndrome which as I mentioned above I am also suffering from. See the attached link as an example http://www.immunesupport.com/library/showarticle.cfm/id/3154/searchtext/klonopin/
> >
> > I fully agree with you that proper treatment means getting the right diagnosis and then the doctors practicing responsible medicine by using the right medications for the right illnesses. In other words it boils down to professional and competent medical management which unfortunately is in rather short supply in western society.
> >
> > Looking forward to your response to my questions
> >
> > regards
> > bluedog
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by bluedog on December 6, 2002, at 20:40:46
In reply to Re: Regarding Benzophobia - PS. » Alan, posted by bluedog on December 6, 2002, at 20:35:52
Woops, I wrote the following:
> The Diazepam does cause me to behave in such an innappropriate way.
What I meant to say was that Diazepam does NOT cause me to behave in such an innapropriate way :)
bluedog
Posted by Squiggles on December 6, 2002, at 21:03:03
In reply to Re: About Benzo's and positivism:, posted by Alan on December 6, 2002, at 19:38:11
Cute -- but it won't fly; i have many problems
in my life and i don't expect your advice to
do me any good; nor do i believe that you have
any particular interest in benefitting anybody's
health here. My doctor, who is sympathetic
with the Ashton school, and who teaches at the
best university in Canada, provides adequate
assistance; i'm sorry that it does not fit
into your school of thought. I suggest you
find someone else to set up for your cause.Squiggles
Posted by Alan on December 6, 2002, at 22:17:57
In reply to Re: About Benzo's and positivism: » Alan, posted by Squiggles on December 6, 2002, at 21:03:03
> Cute -- but it won't fly; i have many problems
> in my life and i don't expect your advice to
> do me any good; nor do i believe that you have
> any particular interest in benefitting anybody's
> health here. My doctor, who is sympathetic
> with the Ashton school, and who teaches at the
> best university in Canada, provides adequate
> assistance; i'm sorry that it does not fit
> into your school of thought. I suggest you
> find someone else to set up for your cause.
>
> Squiggles
>
>==============================================
Set up? If others were judging for themselves, as perhaps they are, they may be assuming a bit of paranoia about the whole thing. I'm not here to necessarily help or "convert" you in particular if that is implied by your comments.
I would associate the term "cause" in this context with evangilising, polarisation, and ideology. If, as I have on many occasions here, posted encouragement to those that have positive experiences and good reactions to ANY medication that works for them and I'm able to provide some self-affirming hope in the face of negativism that I see posted about what amounts to problems created by misinformed or lazy physicians, profit motive in place of compassion, or in this case, "informational" websites that use half-truths as their calling card, well then, I may very well be guilty.
Really, we've been 'round about Ashton and the misuse by the anti-benzo lobby of her "commentary" and resultant speculative rhetoric on other's scientific research about bzd use (in the abscence of her own published scientific research). But as I said earlier, I'll dance as long as you want. I just thought that all that kind of silliness about the subject had been relegated to a disagree to disagree status.
It's begining to look a lot like arguing in public and that breaks one of my cardinal rules of engagement : ^ )
Best,
Alan
Posted by Alan on December 6, 2002, at 23:33:19
In reply to Correction to previous post!!!!. » bluedog, posted by bluedog on December 6, 2002, at 20:40:46
> Woops, I wrote the following:
>
> > The Diazepam does cause me to behave in such an innappropriate way.
>
> What I meant to say was that Diazepam does NOT cause me to behave in such an innapropriate way :)
>
> bluedog
>==============================================
Whew! You had me worried for the moment...Best,
Alan
Posted by Tabitha on December 6, 2002, at 23:42:59
In reply to Re: Social Anxiety in OZ (Damn Benzophobes) » Squiggles, posted by joy on December 6, 2002, at 9:50:54
> Squiggles,
> Please abstain from the holier than thou attitude.Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel put-down. For complete civility guidelines, see http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Tabitha (filling in for Dr. Bob)
P.S. Replies to this message should be directed to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Posted by Tabitha on December 6, 2002, at 23:46:20
In reply to Re: About Benzo's and positivism: » Alan, posted by Squiggles on December 6, 2002, at 21:03:03
> Cute -- but it won't fly; i have many problems
> in my life and i don't expect your advice to
> do me any good; nor do i believe that you have
> any particular interest in benefitting anybody's
> health here.Please don't jump to conclusions about others or post anything that could lead others to feel put-down. Since Dinah warned you previously, I'm afraid I'm going to have to block you from posting for a week.
Tabitha (filling in for Dr. Bob)
P.S. follow-ups to this message should be sent to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Posted by Alara on December 7, 2002, at 3:24:06
In reply to Social Anxiety in OZ (Damn Benzophobes), posted by k23d on December 4, 2002, at 2:30:36
kd23, did you get my email?
Alara
Posted by Joshua on December 7, 2002, at 13:18:33
In reply to Re: Social Anxiety in OZ (Damn Benzophobes) » k23d, posted by Alara on December 7, 2002, at 3:24:06
I really don't see the problem with the judicious use of benzo's with appropriate dx.
In all honesty, I find the post's concerning the use of many of the other drugs on this board to be much more problematic.
All psychiatric drugs are serious business, including the benzo's. I'm just having trouble processing all this discussion on benzo's in comparison to the use of anti-psychotics, stimulants, etc. I know we all gotta do what we gotta do, and I have no problem with others needs when it comes to the use of certain drugs for specific conditions, but goodness, the benzo's have been around for so many years and have proven to be extremely safe when they aren't abused and are used correctly under a knowledgeable physicians care.
I'm sorry that some have had bad experiences with benzo's, but for those of us who have success with them, why so much resistance from others. I've had bad experiences with all AD's that I've taken, and I know others have too, but I don't see the kind of emotions elicited from those experiences here that seem to be crop up when a discussion about benzo's evolves. Seems kind of like a double standard exists, but I honestly don't understand what the motivation is for some to bash benzo's to such an extent.
Still, the discussion is entertaining and informative.
Joshua
Posted by Alan on December 7, 2002, at 14:26:24
In reply to Re: Social Anxiety in OZ (Damn Benzophobes), posted by Joshua on December 7, 2002, at 13:18:33
> I really don't see the problem with the judicious use of benzo's with appropriate dx.
>
> In all honesty, I find the post's concerning the use of many of the other drugs on this board to be much more problematic.
>
> All psychiatric drugs are serious business, including the benzo's. I'm just having trouble processing all this discussion on benzo's in comparison to the use of anti-psychotics, stimulants, etc. I know we all gotta do what we gotta do, and I have no problem with others needs when it comes to the use of certain drugs for specific conditions, but goodness, the benzo's have been around for so many years and have proven to be extremely safe when they aren't abused and are used correctly under a knowledgeable physicians care.
>
> I'm sorry that some have had bad experiences with benzo's, but for those of us who have success with them, why so much resistance from others. I've had bad experiences with all AD's that I've taken, and I know others have too, but I don't see the kind of emotions elicited from those experiences here that seem to be crop up when a discussion about benzo's evolves. Seems kind of like a double standard exists, but I honestly don't understand what the motivation is for some to bash benzo's to such an extent.
>
> Still, the discussion is entertaining and informative.
>
> Joshua
===========================================I haven't a clue either...except that this faction driven by benzo.org seems to have latched on to the very same herd mentality as the corporatisation that's trying to replace the bzd's in the first place - the promotion of AD's for anxiety. As if we're to believe that AD's are superior to bzd's simply because they aren't "addictive" (which of course they are moreso apt to make one medically dependent than the bzd's - just look at the boards around the internet and the latest W.H.O. report). Ironic isn't it?
The politics of medicine.
Alan
Posted by Joshua on December 7, 2002, at 18:41:11
In reply to Re: Social Anxiety in OZ (Damn Benzophobes) » Joshua, posted by Alan on December 7, 2002, at 14:26:24
> > I really don't see the problem with the judicious use of benzo's with appropriate dx.
> >
> > In all honesty, I find the post's concerning the use of many of the other drugs on this board to be much more problematic.
> >
> > All psychiatric drugs are serious business, including the benzo's. I'm just having trouble processing all this discussion on benzo's in comparison to the use of anti-psychotics, stimulants, etc. I know we all gotta do what we gotta do, and I have no problem with others needs when it comes to the use of certain drugs for specific conditions, but goodness, the benzo's have been around for so many years and have proven to be extremely safe when they aren't abused and are used correctly under a knowledgeable physicians care.
> >
> > I'm sorry that some have had bad experiences with benzo's, but for those of us who have success with them, why so much resistance from others. I've had bad experiences with all AD's that I've taken, and I know others have too, but I don't see the kind of emotions elicited from those experiences here that seem to be crop up when a discussion about benzo's evolves. Seems kind of like a double standard exists, but I honestly don't understand what the motivation is for some to bash benzo's to such an extent.
> >
> > Still, the discussion is entertaining and informative.
> >
> > Joshua
> ===========================================
>
> I haven't a clue either...except that this faction driven by benzo.org seems to have latched on to the very same herd mentality as the corporatisation that's trying to replace the bzd's in the first place - the promotion of AD's for anxiety. As if we're to believe that AD's are superior to bzd's simply because they aren't "addictive" (which of course they are moreso apt to make one medically dependent than the bzd's - just look at the boards around the internet and the latest W.H.O. report). Ironic isn't it?
>
> The politics of medicine.
>
> Alan
>=====================================
What I find peculiar to this board is it covers such a broad range of disorders that requires discussion of so many different classes of drugs that are so much more powerful than the benzo's. So many of these other drugs have known short term side effects, but long term side effects, especially with the newer ones, are virtually unexplored.
Yet when someone finds success with these other drugs there seems to be a lot of high fives, virtually devoid of any real cautious optimism or outright skeptism in posts.
This does not seem to apply to the benzo's when one has success with them. Yes, there are some high fives, but in proportion to the other drugs, success with benzo's here seems to elicite a lot of skeptical optimism and even outright emotional cries of forboding of the terrible things to come, which does not follow logically given that the benzo's are a known quantity after so many years of use.
What I haven't figured out is if the majority of people on this board have a different mindset about the debilitating aspects of some of the the supposed more difficult conditions such as bipolar, intractible depression, schizophrenia, etc., than they do with the benzo's which, as minor tranquilizers or anxiolitics, are used for anxiety disorders, not exclusively of course, but also for the treatment of symptoms of accompanying anxiety associated with the more difficult conditions. In other words, it's not such a big deal to have success over anxiety disorders because most people know the benzo's are extremely effective for these conditions but perhaps are not aware how debilitating anxiety disorders are if left untreated or treated with all these other meds that are rx'd off label, and as such don't have nearly the success rate as benzo's. And because so many doctors are reluctant to rx the benzo's, it's a huge triumph to run the gammit of all the other drugs, put up with all the horrible side effects, and finally find one that works, even if only partially. (I hope that makes sense. I did not word it quite as well as I should have.)
I would think that if anxiety disorders were viewed as potentially being just as disabling as all the other disorders here, there would be a porportional amount of high fives with the success of benzo's as there are for all the other pharmacological successes.
I'm just speculating here and am not in any way trying to offend anyone.
There is little doubt that the anti-benzo crowd is here, as they seem to infiltrate so many of the web sites. But I wonder how many are here. Could it be that there are just a few but those few cry fowl so loudly and with such emotion that they either drown out or scare off what is actually a majority of pro-benzoites. Or perhaps the pro-benzoites are just sick of dealing with them and prefere not to voice an opinion to avoid conflict.
I don't really know, again, I'm just speculating, and tossing out some thoughts.
I do agree with your assesment Alan of the pharmiceutical co. trying to displace the off patent benzo's and their herd mentality. As far as benzo.org crowd, they do seem to be all over the place, but I wonder, as I stated above, specific to this web site, are their numbers overwhelming here or is it just a matter of who is the most emotional and has the loudest voice in the crowd.
Again, these thoughts are just speculative and specific to this site because of the broad range of disorders grouped together rather than having specific boards for specific conditions as is the case in the majority of the other sites I have visited.
Joshua
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 7, 2002, at 20:19:29
In reply to Re: Social Anxiety in OZ (Damn Benzophobes) » Squiggles, posted by Alan on December 5, 2002, at 9:48:21
> Actually the bboard is not illegal
It's controversial, but IMO they may be practicing medicine without a license (in the state of the patient), so I've deleted the link.
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. And those regarding online medicine should be redirected to Tele-Psycho-Babble.
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