![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by cybercafe on September 14, 2003, at 16:28:44
if you take a stimulant during the day (for ADD)
then when it wears off are you going to feel a need to sleep more than the regular 8 hours?(i ask because i'm trying to figure out why i sleep 12+ hours a day, arrg)
Posted by wsj on September 14, 2003, at 17:31:14
In reply to do stimulants make you need more sleep?, posted by cybercafe on September 14, 2003, at 16:28:44
when i took dexedrine 20-40mg/day i slept an avg of 5.5 hrs per night. off it i sleep an avg of 7.5 hrs.
wsj
Posted by utopizen on September 14, 2003, at 17:57:16
In reply to Re: do stimulants make you need more sleep?, posted by wsj on September 14, 2003, at 17:31:14
> when i took dexedrine 20-40mg/day i slept an avg of 5.5 hrs per night. off it i sleep an avg of 7.5 hrs.
>
> wsjI don't think anyone could prove that. I think some docs might have a hypothesis/assumption, but lots take them for excessive daytime sleepiness due to a sleeping disorder-- I take Desoxyn. If I don't take Desoxyn, I'll be miserably tired. I I do, I won't as much. After it wears off, I will again. But if I didn't take any, I'd be just as tired as when it wears off.
It can also cause insomnia if it is taken too late in the day, which can lead you to need more sleep the next day... but in general, no, it's not going to make you need less sleep, you just need to make sure you're not getting any less sleep, because if you are your body is being tricked and that's not healthy, insulin regulation, blood anti-inflammation, all sorts of things you don't know about go on during sleep. The difference from 7 hours to 8 hours in a study showed the 8 hour group had more signs inflammation in their veins from everyday bloodflow.
5.5 hours, that will give you an early death sentence if you don't intervene-- there's sleeping pills you can take, it's not something to tolerate and not bring up w/ your doc. You're cutting off years of your life. One may as well spend the extra 2 hours they're losing in sleep to researching what coffin to sleep in.
Posted by cybercafe on September 14, 2003, at 18:42:54
In reply to Re: do stimulants make you need more sleep?, posted by utopizen on September 14, 2003, at 17:57:16
> > when i took dexedrine 20-40mg/day i slept an avg of 5.5 hrs per night. off it i sleep an avg of 7.5 hrs.
> >
> > wsj
>
> I don't think anyone could prove that. I think some docs might have a hypothesis/assumption, but lots take them for excessive daytime sleepiness due to a sleeping disorder-- I take Desoxyn. If I don't take Desoxyn, I'll be miserably tired. I I do, I won't as much. After it wears off, I will again. But if I didn't take any, I'd be just as tired as when it wears off.
>
> It can also cause insomnia if it is taken too late in the day, which can lead you to need more sleep the next day... but in general, no, it's not going to make you need less sleep, you just need to make sure you're not getting any less sleep, because if you are your body is being tricked and that's not healthy, insulin regulation, blood anti-inflammation, all sorts of things you don't know about go on during sleep. The difference from 7 hours to 8 hours in a study showed the 8 hour group had more signs inflammation in their veins from everyday bloodflow.
>
> 5.5 hours, that will give you an early death sentence if you don't intervene-- there's sleeping pills you can take, it's not something to tolerate and not bring up w/ your doc. You're cutting off years of your life. One may as well spend the extra 2 hours they're losing in sleep to researching what coffin to sleep in.
on no meds i'd sleep 12 - 14 hours a day (depression)
on celexa + ritalin i'm sleeping 12 - 14 hours a dayi'm not sure which med is causing this
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on September 15, 2003, at 0:25:40
In reply to Re: do stimulants make you need more sleep?, posted by cybercafe on September 14, 2003, at 18:42:54
In "Mosby's Drug Guide for Nurses", the following instruction is included in the sections for amphetamine, dextroamphetamine, and methylphenidate:
"Tell patient to get needed rest; patients feel more tired at end of day...."
That, to me, would indicate that more sleep could be necessary for some. I mean, it's just logical -- with your body working in overdrive all day on speed, it's going to want longer periods of sleep to recuperate.
Posted by utopizen on September 15, 2003, at 0:46:14
In reply to Re: do stimulants make you need more sleep?, posted by cybercafe on September 14, 2003, at 18:42:54
>
> on no meds i'd sleep 12 - 14 hours a day (depression)
> on celexa + ritalin i'm sleeping 12 - 14 hours a day
>
> i'm not sure which med is causing thisTell your doctor this. GP, P-Doc, tell all of them. Ask for a good referral. Go to a sleep disorders clinic.
See a neurologist, who will rule some possibilities out. She'll refer you to a pulmonary specialist, who will order a sleep study. Then another one if you got diagnosed with apnea in the first study. Then you start a CPAP machine-- and if you find the right one, they're comfortable, sleek, quiet.
I got "Idiopathic Hypersomnolence" without any other diagnosis-- my sleep apnea index was 4 (borderline) (some are in their 70's, about 20 is extreme). IH just means excessive daytime sleepiness without a known origin.
My MSLT (Nap test during daytime) was 4.2 minutes. Anything below 5 minutes is severe narcolepsy or idiopathic hypersomnolence. I have the latter.
Be patient, some take years before finding the right doctor, treatment, etc. Simply waiting to meet with a good doctor, especially at a teaching hospital, can take months.
So do it ASAP! Call your GP to schedule an appt. to see her. Don't say apnea, I told her that and she goes "but your young and thin!" Say you're very tired and would like to get diagositic work done to identify the problem. Emphasize how it affects your life, future, etc.
And call ASAP- these docs can take months to get an appt., my neurologist took 6 months.
all she did was rule thnigs out so my pulmonary specialist could see me a couple of months later, who then ordered two sleep tests. He's about to put me on CPAP, my study to acclimate the pressure is for this sat night. I should get it within 6-8 weeks after that, and I see my pulmonary specialist in 6 mos. to see how it went.
In the meantime, my pulmonary specialist told me to keep my psychopharma to deal w/ the meds.
Which is fine, he gives me Desoxyn and Klonopin, and wanted me to augument Straterra last time I saw him.
But I missed my appt. Friday at 7AM, alarm didn't go off. Called him ASAP, asking that he call me back. Never did. I am out of Desoxyn. I'm calling him today, most likely will get his voicemail, but will emphasize how I'd like to drop by to pay the missed appt. fee (probably $80 or so, my last dr.'s was $75).
I figure he'll have to talk to me if it means letting me know how much to write the check out for, and in the process try to either get the Desoxyn refills at his office or see him within the next day or two, which is unrealistic. It took a week and 1/2 just to see him at 7AM last friday, which I missed...
I have papers due soon, readings piling up, I can't function without Desoxyn, I'm too tired. I am looking forward to CPAP, even the possibility of adding Straterra to Desoxyn and Klonopin down the road **very* slowly. My doc gives me the scripts last spring when I needed them, but he hasn't seen me over the summer, where I was out of state.
I don't think he's even gotten my sleep studies that diagnosis me with Idiopathic Hypersomnolence. He must be like "ah, another ADD patient, I can see you in a week or two." I'm not accepting that statement, not if I get him on the line. I cannot function with stims, and it's not a grand world with them, but it's better than being without them.
I'm scared. I will have no way to explain why I can't keep up in my classes, my papers will turn to garbage, I'm scared.
See, it would have all been fine if I made the appt. Now I'm scared of not doing work for the rest of the week, I'm truly scared he won't respond to my calls at all. I'm going to leave another message Mon morning, and also drop by the office to pay him the fee. I hope in him calling me back with the fee I can talk about my problem of not having Desoxyn.
I can't wait for CPAP, and maybe even Straterra, to lessen things hopefully so that down the road, I won't be as non-functional if I happen to not have Desoxyn on hand... life won't be so miserable.
Posted by cybercafe on September 15, 2003, at 1:14:29
In reply to Missed doc appt., need Desoxyn refill, what to do?, posted by utopizen on September 15, 2003, at 0:46:14
don't worry dude, you can always just tell your prof of your diagnosis, and watch them squirm as they try to figure out how to appropriately address something they don't understand :)
Posted by Viridis on September 15, 2003, at 4:57:43
In reply to Re: Missed doc appt., need Desoxyn refill, what to » utopizen, posted by cybercafe on September 15, 2003, at 1:14:29
You'd be surprised at the number of academics who have these problems and really do understand...academia seems to attract ADD types.
Posted by Peter N on September 15, 2003, at 13:00:28
In reply to Missed doc appt., need Desoxyn refill, what to do?, posted by utopizen on September 15, 2003, at 0:46:14
The sleep problem sounds like Desoxyn withdrawal. The more awake you are during the day, the harder you need to make up for it with sleep. I didn't think they even prescribed that anymore, since it's the same active ingredient as crystal meth, with a high potential for abuse. My experience with illegal crystal was the MOST AWAKE I'd ever felt, where my eyes just wouldn't shut.
While I don't have any suggestions for your problem at hand, I think asking the doctor about increasing strattera while slowly decreasing the Desoxyn. I went into drug rehab for cocaine/dexedrine/meth hoping to get a legit prescription for ritalin or something, but then I gave strattera a chance and I have never had thoughts of going back to those drugs for relief of my ADD symptoms. (Being addicted, though, I have cravings in stressful situations anyway.)
Posted by blondegirl47 on September 15, 2003, at 17:20:13
In reply to Missed doc appt., need Desoxyn refill, what to do?, posted by utopizen on September 15, 2003, at 0:46:14
I would go to his office, tell them about missed appointment and that you would like to wait just incase the doc has a moment to see you.
Blondegirl
Posted by utopizen on September 16, 2003, at 3:51:33
In reply to Re: Missed doc appt., need Desoxyn refill, what to do?, posted by Peter N on September 15, 2003, at 13:00:28
> The sleep problem sounds like Desoxyn withdrawal.
Thanks, I'm about to consider withdrawing from one of the greatest Universities in the nation, not getting a chance to graduate with my class, doing work I really want to study at this semester, because it will take me roughly a semester just to make an appt. with a sleep specialist, who will place me on Desoxyn again. Relating your experiences of getting high, and trying to draw parallels between your withdrawl and the Idiopathic Hypersomnolence I've suffered since I was 13 (I started Desoxyn in April)...
it really makes me feel great you're offering me your experienced wisdom at this time.
I'd say more, but what is there to say? Because so many great people such as yourself have been tempted into abusing crystal meth, I can't take it for a therapeutic indication because so few doctors are now trained to prescribe it outside of sleep doctors. Not to mention the hundreds of millions that society feels compelled to spend researching meth abuse, and the $0 spent to research Desoxyn for therapeutic purposes.
Did I mention I have been off this before for a month? That I forgot to take it on the weekends? That I take 10mg a day when I remember to?
People who abuse methamphetamine have led the DEA to intimidate doctors against prescribing it. This has led to my need to find a sleep doctor, who is more experienced in using it to treat sleeping disorders. Which take months to make appts. with.
But I hope you had a good high. Meanwhile, because others get high on it, I must withdraw from college.
Posted by Peter N on September 21, 2003, at 13:41:17
In reply to Re: Missed doc appt., need Desoxyn refill, what to, posted by utopizen on September 16, 2003, at 3:51:33
I'm sorry Utopizen. When I've asked doctors out of curiosity if it's ever prescribed, they always told me no, Desoxyn is off the market. They prolly thought that would be a safer answer for me. ;)
I gotta stop drawing up conclusions about medicine which I've never been prescribed.
Posted by utopizen on September 21, 2003, at 15:02:32
In reply to Re: Missed doc appt., need Desoxyn refill, what to, posted by Peter N on September 21, 2003, at 13:41:17
Well, things are okay now, I met my doc, apparently he dialed my cell number, which was dead at the time.
No, go to google.com, type in "ovation pharmaceuticals" and go to their website. They spent $40 million last August to acquire the rights to Desoxyn and Tranxene.
My doc hadn't heard of it, said "I've never heard of it" in the most peculiar way, like I asked him for crack. But the next appt., he prescribed it anyway. It's in the PDR.
The time-release version went off-market in Aug 2000. Manufacturing problems, nothing else, with Abbott. The immediate release, 5 mg dose is still available. Tell your doctor to look it up in the PDR if he doesn't believe you, mind did.
You're not likely to get a Schedule II drug if you have a history of substance abuse, this includes alcohol, pot, etc. All amphetamines are C-II, including Adderall.
Also, you're not likely to be switched to a different drug because you say you want to or feel like it or whatever. I switched because I have rather bad anxiety problems, which are worsened a ton by Adderall and Dexedrine, I couldn't bear it.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.