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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by reese7194 on January 31, 2006, at 17:48:19
it's been...i don't know maybe 15 years. i have taken everything there is. even things that are so off-label you have to find very special and doctors that are in an incredibly powerful position to prescribe them. but still i am only so much better than i was. and that is a huge maybe.
i feel very much like there is no more hope in this direction. in fact i feel no hope at all. my hope has been slowly wiped away in the past five years. there was a time when i looked to the future with all the possible off label hope there was.
like some you will see on the board here with buprenorphine or anything else. but what happens when you feel there is nothing else to look forward to?
that you might face a life with nothing but waking up and remembering what you were once?
if i am whining and passive i understand your point of view. i just want to know what peoples views on this are.
i am so tired of trying and trying to find something that ends up less than nothing. i don't see anything at the moment. in fact i wish something apocolyptic at times would happen. not to everyone....just something....
thanks you.
reese
Posted by Phillipa on January 31, 2006, at 20:18:28
In reply to is there a time to give up?, posted by reese7194 on January 31, 2006, at 17:48:19
Don't give up hope there is always something being released or a new useage of a med. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by greywolf on February 1, 2006, at 8:59:24
In reply to is there a time to give up?, posted by reese7194 on January 31, 2006, at 17:48:19
There's no giving up. Respect the sacrifices you've made to get better, and continue on.
Posted by vainamoinen on February 1, 2006, at 12:25:42
In reply to is there a time to give up?, posted by reese7194 on January 31, 2006, at 17:48:19
Your post reminds me very much of alcoholics who have hit bottom and are at the point of surrender.
I'm not saying you have a substance abuse problem, just that your state of mind is similar.
In the case of the alcoholic the answer is a spiritual, not religious, awakening.
Medicine has failed you. Perhaps it's time you looked elsewhere.
I remember in my intro psychology text books there were photos of people who had stigmata. I'm not a Jesus freak nor am I advocating you become one. My point is that the mind is a powerful thing. If the mind is powerful enough to manifest stigmata, then perhaps it could also heal you.
I have a picture at my desk here at work of the Buddhist monk Thich Quang Duc, who burned himself alive to protest the governments oppression of Buddhists. He sat quietly while his body burned to ash. Now regardless of what you think about his actions, you have to admit that it takes a powerful mind to sit quietly while you burn to death.
And I'm not saying throw away your meds. I'm just saying something is missing which medicine can't provide.
Posted by fenix on February 1, 2006, at 12:47:20
In reply to is there a time to give up?, posted by reese7194 on January 31, 2006, at 17:48:19
Please apologize me if this post offends anyone but I mean no ill.
Have you ever tried a form of opiate (legally) from a doctor? It works wonders for depression (in fact it kind of eliminates it entirely for as long as you are taking it, but then again SSRIs work in the same way in that you must keep taking them for the benefits).
Opiates get a bad rap from ignorance and people that have abused them, but they are some of the most important drugs ever discovered. It never makes sense to me why they aren't prescribed for depression, they work so well and the side-effects are so nominal.
Hmmm, of course, they now replace the centuries old poppy for much more dangerous medicines out there. But such is the law I guess, as irrational as it may be.
Oh yeah, and about that whole addiction thing with opiates, or any other substance. If you have to be taking those kinds of drugs (legally) that are addicting for a very long time (to treat a certain thing), then addiction is irrelevant because you have to keep taking them anyway. You don't have to worry about running out.
People that use these drugs for abuse hurt those people that really need them.
Oh, nevermind, I don't apologize about this post, I believe I stated it for the well being of a fellow man that has tried much but has not found sanctuary from his demons. I really mean this all in the best of Providence. Good luck.
Posted by Racer on February 1, 2006, at 13:53:47
In reply to is there a time to give up?, posted by reese7194 on January 31, 2006, at 17:48:19
I don't know, but I can tell you I'm feeling the same way about now. At least you've got company.
To make matters worse, the doctor I just fired started out telling me about how there were all sorts of options open to me, all sorts of thing that I'd never tried that might help, etc. First he prescribed Cymbalta. Then added Wellbutrin. Then Lamictal. Then he said there was nothing left. Way to go, Doc! Way to instill hope!
I know that he wasn't exactly right, that there are one or two other things out there that might help, that maybe I haven't tried yet, but I thought I'd share that story with you anyway.
So, when do you give up? That depends -- what do you mean by giving up? For me, giving up means suicide, so I guess that's a personal choice. If you choose not to commit suicide, then by definition, you haven't given up. If you mean giving up drugs, though, then that's another personal choice: what would you do instead? If you mean not doing anything at all to combat your depression, then I don't know what to say. I can't survive without doing something, so I keep slogging along with meds that don't work, and going to therapy.
If you're just feeling discouraged, though, I guess I'd suggest starting over with new combinations of drugs. Sometimes, something that doesn't work on its own, or with one drug, might work with a different drug to augment it.
I'm sorry you're so discouraged. I am too, so I know how bad it feels. I wish I had some wisdom, but I don't. My own choice, though, is that I'm taking one antidepressant -- which obviously ain't fixin' what ails me -- and going to therapy, and thinking about stopping the drug since it isn't working for me. I'm afraid to do that, though, in case I'd be worse without it. Right now, though, I doubt that's possible, so the thought is still on my mind.
Oh, another thought for you: right now, I'm thinking about stopping meds because I don't have a pdoc I trust. If you're in that situation, maybe firing this pdoc and finding another would help you get past your slump? Maybe new eyes would see something your current doc hasn't noticed?
Good luck.
Posted by Racer on February 1, 2006, at 14:12:56
In reply to Re: is there a time to give up?, posted by fenix on February 1, 2006, at 12:47:20
> Please apologize me if this post offends anyone but I mean no ill.
No apologies needed -- this was a great, thought-provoking post. Thank you for your contribution.
> People that use these drugs for abuse hurt those people that really need them.
>Yep, wholehearted agreement here.
Posted by reese7194 on February 1, 2006, at 21:08:56
In reply to Re: is there a time to give up?, posted by vainamoinen on February 1, 2006, at 12:25:42
if i could find the answer there i would. i have nothing but respect for people that have found a helping hand or a helping anything in these or any other places.
i just can't accept certain things. certain limitations that have been applied to me. or applied to myself. i don't know what the correct wording is.
all i know i am very very tired of being jekyl and hyde. maybe one but not the other.
i think just like some people are able to do certain things others aren't. the same goes with dexterity in searching - hoping - trying. then after a point there just isn't enough left inside to continue to try.
when hope dries up. it is very hard to move forward in a position where it feels like you are moving anywhere.
time doens't really change. only what is outside the window.
Posted by 4WD on February 1, 2006, at 22:45:41
In reply to Re: is there a time to give up?, posted by fenix on February 1, 2006, at 12:47:20
> Please apologize me if this post offends anyone but I mean no ill.
>
> Have you ever tried a form of opiate (legally) from a doctor? It works wonders for depression (in fact it kind of eliminates it entirely for as long as you are taking it, but then again SSRIs work in the same way in that you must keep taking them for the benefits).
>
> Opiates get a bad rap from ignorance and people that have abused them, but they are some of the most important drugs ever discovered. It never makes sense to me why they aren't prescribed for depression, they work so well and the side-effects are so nominal.
>
> Hmmm, of course, they now replace the centuries old poppy for much more dangerous medicines out there. But such is the law I guess, as irrational as it may be.
>
> Oh yeah, and about that whole addiction thing with opiates, or any other substance. If you have to be taking those kinds of drugs (legally) that are addicting for a very long time (to treat a certain thing), then addiction is irrelevant because you have to keep taking them anyway. You don't have to worry about running out.
>
> People that use these drugs for abuse hurt those people that really need them.
>
> Oh, nevermind, I don't apologize about this post, I believe I stated it for the well being of a fellow man that has tried much but has not found sanctuary from his demons. I really mean this all in the best of Providence. Good luck.
>I don't think anyone will be offended by your post; there are several people here who use or have used opiates for their depression with good results.
However, with most opiates, the problem is that tolerance builds so quickly. And for me, the letdown that comes going off opiates or when they start to wear off is pretty awful. OTOH I never used them therapeutically. I used them to self medicate and I abused them.
I guess it's possible to take say, 5mg of hydocodone 3 times a day indefinitely and never need to increase the dose but I can't imagine it for me. Buprenorphine, I think, may not cause tolerance so rapidly.
But I tell you what, if I were deeply depressed and nothing else wwere working and I had not been an opiate abuser and my doctor offered to try me on a trial of opiate therapy, I'd jump at it.
Marsha
Posted by 4WD on February 1, 2006, at 22:57:16
In reply to is there a time to give up?, posted by reese7194 on January 31, 2006, at 17:48:19
Hi Reese,
By giving up, do you mean quit trying to fight the depression or do you mean suicide?
I have given serious thought to both options. I have been counseled to allow myself just to feel how I feel, even though to me, sometimes how I've felt has been unbearable. People have told me that fighting the depression (and in my case outright fear) just makes it worse. I don't know. I'm like Racer. I can't just sit there and let it be. It's too awful. But it does help me to accept that where I am is where I am supposed to be right now. And to trust that it will be better in the future.
If you mean suicide, well, I think anyone has the right to give up if the pain is unbearable and there is no hope of relief. The only thing that kept me from it at times, was the hope that the future might be better and not wanting to miss the rest of my life. Some days would be so horrible that I had to spend all my energy fighting not to kill myself. But then would come a day or a few days where I felt better and I'd be so glad I hadn't done it.
There are always new things to try. EMSAM is coming out soon. Have you tried an MAOI? Nardil or Parnate? There is rTMS and VNS therapy. Or even ECT.
I've been on meds since 1986. I've been fighting this horrible disease longer than that. I still have hope. I know that when you are in the middle of deep, deep depression, it is impossible to believe things can ever get better so you just have to trust people around you who tell you that they *can.* Can you hang on to that for at least a little while? Can you try a new pdoc?
I will keep you in my prayers.
Marsha
Posted by fenix on February 2, 2006, at 6:06:46
In reply to is there a time to give up?, posted by reese7194 on January 31, 2006, at 17:48:19
Hey reese
Let me tell you something, you know how they sometimes say "hang in there, things will get better", well I am sorry to say that this is obviously not always true. Things sometimes get better and they sometimes get worse.
I actually have a book near me called "Hagakure", it was written way back in the 18th century by a samurai retainer named Yamamoto Tsunetomo who used to belong to the Nabeshima Clan, Lords of Hizen province. He later became a buddhist monk and his book "Hagakure"(which means "In the Shadow of Leaves") was dictated to a young samurai. The book was later translated into the English.
Anyway, the book was basically a treatise on how samurai should be, and how to find the "WAY". But there was an interesting passage in the book. He wrote how many unseemingly situations happen in life, and if you don't have this resolved in your mind from the beginning then it will be hard to exist in a world such as this one.
I, myself go through pain everyday, but I keep existing in the hope that things will get better, even if they do get worse, the whole point is that I am rebelling against those unseemingly things which may try and test me, to bring me down and destroy what is left of me.
I was suicidal before many times, but never attempted anything. Why? Because I would rather live in pain against a world where there is still hope. I have survived many trials, and I am victorious because I choose existence.
Posted by SLS on February 2, 2006, at 8:44:53
In reply to is there a time to give up?, posted by reese7194 on January 31, 2006, at 17:48:19
Is there a time to give up?
That's a very personal question to have answered. I would not presume to try to do so on someone else's behalf.
Some illnesses are terminal and very painful. Some illnesses, while not terminal, are chronic and very painful such that existing drugs do not ameliorate it. I guess I could conjure a bunch of scenarios for which reaching a decision to "give up" is understandable and perhaps justified.
Sometimes, it helps to "give up" temporarily. It allows for the purging of some of the feelings of helplessness and hopelessness that pervade one's thoughts as they battle with depression unsuccessfully. The paradox, however, is that it is the nature of the chemistry of depression that one experience helplessness and hopelessness in the face of opportunities to glean empowerment and hopefullness.
I am always told that there are new drugs in development. Unfortunately, the people who say these things cannot tell me how soon I will be able to try them.
In the meantime, I am trying to use all of the tools I have acquired over the years to defend myself against the unrelenting demon of depression. With depression, how one feels changes the way one thinks. However, within limits, one can change the way one feels by changing the way they think. CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) can be a powerful tool to have at one's disposal to offset some of the negative "automatic thoughts" that have become part of one's psychology as a result of the damage done by depression. Afterall, depression is a liar.
Now the question becomes, "If depression can affect the way one thinks, can a depressed person truly be considered of sound mind such that they are able to make the decision to 'give up'?"
Catch-22? It sure is. I am an advocate of autoeuthanasia, but it is difficult to evaluate the copus mentus of a severely depressed person.
I guess what I would offer you is the acknowledgment that you have a right to give up, even if only for a little while. You have a right to your feelings, and I am sure they are well justified given your weariness of suffering and tireless searching for relief.
I would encourage you to stick around for the long-term, though. There are bound to be combinations of medications that you have yet to try. There are new drugs in development :-). In the meantime, perhaps CBT can offer you some techniques to influence your thoughts to become less negative. It might be constructive to think of a timeline that places treatment success a few years down the road rather than being only a few weeks away. Maybe not. What works for one person in terms of a mentality may not work for another - just like drugs.
I vote that you 'give up' temporarily and cry and purge yourself of pain and frustration. Be willing to experience the feelings of helplessness and hopelessness that are part of the condition and circumstance that you currently face. Renewed, you can then pick up and continue your journey.
Good luck.
- Scott
Posted by fenix on February 2, 2006, at 10:16:42
In reply to Re: is there a time to give up? » reese7194, posted by SLS on February 2, 2006, at 8:44:53
Depression it may be a liar (I think what you meant is that it twists truths around you), however, it is still real.
I read a lot on the samurai; they used to commit seppuku and tsuifuku(until it was outlawed by the Shogunal government of that time). It wasn't because they were hopeless and depressed though. It was usually ordered for them to do it for various reasons, and sometimes because of dishonor.
I guess what the point I am making is that times change, and cultures differ.
"That's a very personal question to have answered. I would not presume to try to do so on someone else's behalf."
Yes, that is a good thing to do.
I believe that people deserve the right to commit suicide. I am not sure whether it is a bad or a good thing, I guess that depends on one's beliefs.
Our friend concerned now, however, asked whether there is a time to give up. There is a time to give up, but there is also a time to stand strong against the face of adversity and hopelessness.
If you decide that you wish to continue living then you must find a reason to live.
My reason to live is simply to see what is out there in the universe. I suffer from a chronic pain, however, I sought relief. And relief came. If you believe in yourself enough you can overcome many things physical as well as mental, for I have and I am human just like everyone else here.
And it is also perspectives, which are not to be underestimated. Flowers, for instance, still seem as beautiful to me as they have always been. That right there is reason enough for me to live and endure these thorns.
Posted by vainamoinen on February 3, 2006, at 15:48:52
In reply to Re: is there a time to give up?, posted by reese7194 on February 1, 2006, at 21:08:56
Spirituality does not equal religion. I take comfort in many religious myths. To me the fact that they are myth makes them even more powerful. It means they contain some fundamental truth that stands the test of time throughout the ages in spite of being complete fiction.
I'm not a Christian, more of a Buddhist if I had to label myself. Nevertheless I take great interest in all spiritual traditions becuase I personally feel that they all point in the same direction.
And I hate to even mention Jesus since that instantly turns some people off. Nevertheless...
The story of the crucification of Jesus, whether it be true or not, is a great analogy for life. Because even the supposed Son of God cried out on the cross "Why hast thou forsaken me".
And so must we all be in complete despair, be totally forsaken, so that we may die to our old selves and become resurrected into higher consciousness.
Your cross is depression. And traditional western medicine has forsaken you. Just to be clear the death I speak of is a figurative death, the death of ego, or the surrender of ego.
The Buddhists would say that suffering, disease, and death are unavoidable in life. Paradoxically though once you come to complete acceptance of this fact, you transcend suffering.
Cold comfort I'm sure to someone in your position. But I have been where you are, and it does get better, and it gets different.
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 3, 2006, at 20:47:46
In reply to Re: is there a time to give up?, posted by vainamoinen on February 3, 2006, at 15:48:52
> Spirituality does not equal religion...
Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding spirituality to Psycho-Babble Social. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20060203/msgs/606086.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by vainamoinen on February 3, 2006, at 23:39:43
In reply to is there a time to give up?, posted by reese7194 on January 31, 2006, at 17:48:19
Actually I apologize, I came off preachy and unhelpful. Sometimes I need to put down the mouse and step away from the keyboard.
What I meant to say is I too have felt despair and hopelessness. But I recovered with medication, therapy, and the help of others. And you can too. There is hope. I wish you the best.
This is the end of the thread.
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