![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Myrk on July 26, 2006, at 14:25:37
I kinda stumbled on this page when searching for another page about Effexor. I was very interested in how it functioned and if others experienced the same "side-effects" as myself. While browsing, I saw a buncha questions here, so I decided to share my experiences ;) Before I continue, however, there are a couple things I gotta clear up. First, this is a /personal/ experience. Meaning, this crap might not (and probably won't) happen to you. It took me a while to decide to write this - the ethics of the situation made me stop to consider that simply suggesting side-effects might make them come true for some taking the medication. The best thing I can say actually came from a doc I visited - I had suicidal thoughts before I took Effexor. Therefore, it is safe to say that the medication did_not_put_anything into my head that wasn't already there.
Okay, brief history: Around Febuary, went to hospital for self-injury (cutting and burning self). Diagnosis, major depression + social anxiety disorder. Meds perscribed when I got out of hospital were Effexor (left hospital at 225mg, plan was to go to 300mg, but eventually got to 375mg) and Ambien (for any "vivid" dreams caused by the Effexor).
"Vivid dreams" was just another way of saying nightmares, but that crap I could handle. As long as I got fixxed, I would be happy. Didn't notice much in the hospital because I was adapting to the meds which came with the usual side-affects of (yay!) drowsiness. When I got out, though, I was adjusted to the Effexor and on about 225mg. It's hard to explain just how it affected me. It wasn't like "ohshi... I'M HAPPY NOW!". It was more like higher highs and lower lows.
I stepped up to 300 and eventually to 375 because of my Social Anxiety Disorder(SAD). Doc said the higher the dosage I can tolerate, the better it would be for me in the long run for my SAD. At this time, I started to notice wierd thoughts I'd have. Probably the best analogy that I came up with was this:
Let's say you're watching TV. You got the clicker in one hand, and your chips in the other. You flick through the channels, there is happy stuff, sad stuff, angry stuff, whatever on TV, and you can pretty much watch what you want to. But, of course, there are channels that are fuzzy, or the pictures bad. Usually, these are the "bad" channels, ones that aren't viewed as acceptable to society. Well, with Effexor on me, it was like the cable guy came and upgraded me with a HUGE antenna and much better cable box - But he took away the clicker. When I'm on a particularly violant channel, I can't get off of it. I have to explore it, and all of it's avenues. It comes in clearer, I can feel the pain or anger that it invokes. Same with a particularly happy one.
Okay, so out of analogy land, what does that mean in real life? I was having particularly violant daydreams. Ones that I would continue to explore and entertain, mentally, before moving on to the next "thought". And I'm talking sick...sh*t... (pardon my vocabulary, or lack of). I eventually had to start drawing what I would "see" on the higher dosages, simply because I didn't think people would believe all the horrible images that would rush into my head. It was like hell was sending infomercials for a timeshare directly to my brain.
I hit my doc with it, and he said that I simply "needed to stop thinking about it" and to "stop visiting those places in your mind". Yea, real easy thing to handle there, chief. While I do admit to self-injury, the stuff this Effexor was digging up was just... Wrong. To give you an idea of severity - (PLEASE jump to the next paragraph if you are squimish) Probably one of the more frequent images ***Removed for better judgement - I'm new to the boards, and don't know what flies around here. Don't wanna get kicked off my first day =P***
Anyway, after an episode that involved an overdose of Ambien, due to feelings of extreme guilt, we went to a new doctor. Something just wasn't working out with the Effexor, and loading up on a higher dosage was not the answer, even if the first doc swore by it. This is the important part of my story - If you're on Effexor, don't wait for the ____ to hit the fan - Communicate with your doc. "Dude, this is messing with my head. I feel higher highs and lower lows and if this continues, there's probably gonna be a trigger event that may cause me to do something I don't wanna do."
Second doc was apprehensive, and understandably so. I could have been hopping to a new doc, simply to get scrips filled with what I wanted, rather than needed. But after telling her more and more of my shizzle, she began to open up. She smirked as I mentioned my diagnosisof SAD+MD, and said simply, "No... No, that is too easy of an excuse.". She asked a couple qualifying questioned, and determined that something in my head (particularly, frontal lobe) had to be misfiring. I wasn't making proper long-term discisions and my previous Alcohol Abuse just didn't make any sense - It was more impulsive than anything else. She wanted to get me tested for AD/HD, and suprise! She pinned the tail on the donkey.
I read up a bit more on AD/HD in adults, and could see how that could happen to me. So we started to taper off the Effexor, and viola! The images have died down since then. I mean, I can still recall them, I can still construct an equally sadistic scene in my mind. The only difference is that it's not so sharp, you know? I won't /hear/ the screams or /feel/ whatever it was that the image was trying to convey (be it pain, guilt, anger, etc).
The second doc also said that it might have been a combo of my AD/HD reacting with the Effexor. The Effexor stimulated my brain, and the AD/HD simply took off running from there with stuff I've had my mind set on recently.
*sighs* Well, I started out posting this to warn people away from the drug, but really it just turned into me venting (which was really good for me, no one in my family likes to hear about the time I was on Effexor =P Too dark for them). Honestly, though, if I could give anyone advice that is currently taking this drug, it would be: COMMUNICATE with your doctor. I got myself into some trouble here because, while I was communicating the wierd thoughts, I wasn't communicating the severity. Even now, when I write this, I don't feel right talking about them because they are really morbid stuff.
Another thing I wanted to ask is to those whom have been or are currently on Effexor. Reactions to my experiences? I'd really like to hear, it's hard communicating with people like friends or family, cause most of them have never taken stuff like this before.
Posted by linkadge on July 26, 2006, at 15:58:40
In reply to Effexor - A personal experience (long read), posted by Myrk on July 26, 2006, at 14:25:37
I have had some similar reactions to medictions.
We are all capable of some nasty thoughts, feelings and actions. I don't know why those parts of the brain exist, I'd like to burn them out with a blowtorch.
Some medications seemed to turn on a "survival" mode with me, where I would start to consider doing all sorts of things that I would never consider doing normally.
There are situations in life (I can only imagine which ones), in which people would do some crazy things to survive, it just takes the right cirucmstances to turn those nasty parts of the brain on.
Sometimes the TCA's would make me that way. I think its cause they deprived me of certain sleep cycles, and triggered this "survival mode". Phil Hartman's wife killed him while on Zoloft. She blamed the drug, and I believe her.
Linkadge
Posted by silvercoin on July 26, 2006, at 16:58:14
In reply to Effexor - A personal experience (long read), posted by Myrk on July 26, 2006, at 14:25:37
Sometimes Effexor and other drugs that increase serotonin transmission can actually worsen OCD issues even though they a first line treatment for this disorder. My guess is that perhaps non-therapeutic serotonin receptors are being stimulated, such as the 5-HT2a receptor, and this may cause or worsen a problem in susceptible individuals. Theoretically, adding an atypical antipsychotic might help alleviate the problem if this line of reasoning actually has any merit, as these drugs blockade the 2a receptor. Probably better to just discontinue the offending agent as you did if the therapeutic benefits are limited or nonexistent anyway.
Todd
Posted by linkadge on July 26, 2006, at 17:43:33
In reply to Re: Effexor - A personal experience (long read), posted by silvercoin on July 26, 2006, at 16:58:14
Some people too are really sensitive to norepinephrine reuptake.
For some people, it can cause personality changes inc irritability, anger etc.
Linkadge
Posted by stargazer on July 26, 2006, at 21:07:51
In reply to Re: Effexor - A personal experience (long read), posted by linkadge on July 26, 2006, at 17:43:33
My response to Effexor was suicidal thoughts that got progressively worse as the dose was increased. My doc said the suicidal thoughts were not the medication but the result of depression. Makes sense, but still I didn't believe him. He wanted me to increase the dosage and was convinced I would get better if I could "stick it out."
One day I remember walking to an area where I lived and contemplated walking into the ocean. It was raining and I stood there for awhile looking at the water and crying. At some point I went home, called my doc and told him what had happened. I told him it wasn't the depression but the medication making me worse. He finally listened to me and we stopped the Effexor and my mood improved almost immediately.
My motto for taking meds is this...if a med makes you feel worse than you did without it, it probably isn't the right one. Trust yourself and tell your doc that you are afraid of how you are feeling. Don't accept that it is due to the depression. It may be, but you have to communicate how badly you feel in order to have the doc "hear" your distress and trust your judgement.
Just another memory triggered here...SG
Posted by wacky on July 27, 2006, at 9:15:28
In reply to Re: Effexor - A personal experience (long read), posted by stargazer on July 26, 2006, at 21:07:51
The more I read about Effexor, the more convinced I am that I want off it. I've been taking 450 mg for a year now and still have thoughts of SI. It's more than thoughts. In facct, when my depression was at its worst, I had not thought about SI. It wasn't until much later - AFTER I started the Effexor. My pdoc kept upping the dose. Yes I was depressed - and I'm less so now. I've also had nightmares (but I had them before without any drugs). I'm wondering if the SI is from the Effexor. So I totally understand the twisting, morbid thinking thing. I've had the thoughts - ones that are hard to share - since I too would be concerned about the trigger it might be for someone else - or I don't want to give anyone else my "ideas" - cause my ideas are so sick.
And they think marijuana is dangerous?
Nancy
Posted by Myrk on July 27, 2006, at 10:39:25
In reply to Re: Effexor - A personal experience (long read), posted by wacky on July 27, 2006, at 9:15:28
Thanks guys. After your responses, I feel much better - I'm no longer experiencing these things alone (ie, I'm not freakin crazy =P). It also means you stuck it out through that loooooong post I did =P Good job!
@linkage - You'd be suprised about how badly fight or flight kicked in for me when I was on Effexor. I remember having a disscussion with my brother the morning after we went to a bar. Apparently, there was almost a fight between him any someone else, and I wasn't aware (no, I had not been drinking =P). He went off on his "I'm in the Navy! I am armed with deadly knowledge!" bull (He's a good 40-50 lbs overweight, and works Damage Control; he's not a 'leathel weapon' by any means).
I simply agreed with him, and argued that it really didn't matter how much training someone had, or how toned / fit someone was. What mattered was a simple question - How far are you willing to go?" He gave me an odd look. Basically, I tried to sound bad by repeating one of my daydreams - I think I went overboard because even he didn't agree, thinking I was making a sick joke or something. Anyway, after that, I mulled over the idea in my head, and asked myself, given the situation, would I go that far? If not/so, then how far would I escalate a situation? It was hard for me to think on the idea.
The thing I don't get is that, sometimes, these weren't survival techniques or ways of prolonging my life. Some of them were just sadistic.
@stargazer - Thank you for sharing with me =) It makes me feel better that I am not alone. The infliction of pain or death upon myself if something I can handle. Been struggling with it for a while. I dunno why, but suddenly this was no longer focused on myself. Faceless human beings were the center of my day dreams and what scared me most was the day that I'd give them faces.
I'm extremely happy you got off that med when you did. I can't tell you how many people in the hospital told me how "fantastic" Effexor was - Which only encouraged me to go on. But bleh.
You live near the ocean? So jealous =P Gotta be pretty there!
@Nancy / wacky - 450mg? Jeeze. Did you progressively get that high? Or was that sorta the target? I thought 375 was high, which is why I demanded I go back down to 300 =P I will admit this about the Effexor, though, I stopped my SI after taking it (just giving another point of veiw - Hell I can see how someone would feel extreme guilt for thoughts like the ones I had). I was SI'ing about once a week or sooner beforehand, and after it I had no real will too. I have SI'd once, cutting on my back, since I discontinued the use, but I'm not too worried about it, as I'm somewhat "tapering off" =P
As for my experiences, I actually talked to a friend that I fell out of contact with for a long time. She has been bipolar for roughly 20-25 years, and had plenty of meds. I told her a good portion of my story, and then she asked "Have you ever heard of (and I dunno if I'm using her termonology here) counter-effects in drugs? Basically, it's where the drug is /supposed/ to work one way, but since every person is different, it actually works in the complete opposite way."
"No..." I responded, ".. But go on =P"
"You could have had a counter-effect towards the Effexor. Know what the counter-effect to rohypnol is? It makes a person delusionally psychotic (again, she used proper medical terminology that I don't know =P). Basically, any frat guy that slips a ruffie in a victem that is susceptable to the counter-effect is going to have a rough night."
I kinda chuckled at that, but took it with a grain of salt. If it /is/ actually helping people, then I want them to get better. HOWEVER, I do NOT want a doctor to push a pill that has widely varied effects, such as this.
No comment on Marijuana :D I don't use it, but I have plenty of friends that do. And they get funnier/less stressful when they are on it =P
PS: pdoc? I've seen this term a bit and don't fully understand it. Pill doc? If you mean your psyciatrist (grumbles), then I gotcha ;) Still hate how short my sessions are with them. Love my pdoc (the 2nd, not 1st), as she seems to know her stuff, but she is always got this sorta... Angry/professional look on her face when she walks in. I talk to her for 10 mins, and she FINALLY lets her guard down and talks to me as a human being, rather than a doctor. Then she can explain a bit more of what's going on CHEMICALALLY in my head (which is really all I want - I'll go to a psycologist or theoripist if I got other issues).
@silvercoinage - Hehe ;) I'm still a novice at understanding stuff. It's gonna take me a while to decode what you said =P
-Myrk (<3's his new board!)
PS: Just looked over my post - Can you tell my Addorall hit it's peak? =P
Posted by wacky on July 27, 2006, at 12:43:38
In reply to Re: Effexor - A personal experience (long read), posted by Myrk on July 27, 2006, at 10:39:25
Hmmm. Pdoc is psychiatrist - at least that's how I use it. I have a therapist too - which most psychiatrists encourage since they don't do therapy - they administer drugs. My pdoc is a very nice human being - and I've told him about SI. He's never been judgmental - but he encourages me to talk to my therapist about it - which I am.
Now talk about sicko thoughts - here's what I came up with - during my therapy work dealing with severe childhood trauma - I am turning my SI onto my father and imagining doing to him what I've done to myself. Since he's dead - that obviously won't happen (nor would I anyway) BUT - my therapist said it's healthier than turning it on myself. So I made a dad-doll - my version of a voodoo doll so when I want to SI, I can do it to HIM!
It's either totally twisted or pretty funny - I haven't decided yet.
Nancy
Posted by Tracer98 on July 27, 2006, at 14:33:01
In reply to Effexor - A personal experience (long read), posted by Myrk on July 26, 2006, at 14:25:37
Your story was interesting to me in the sense that I take effexor and have been DX with ADHD, GAD and panic disorder. I am glad you feel better, I have the opposite experience. I don't believe I have adhd and my doc lowered my effexor and up'd my Concerta. (certain to cause constant panic attacks. all day) It took me going to a family practioner to get what I knew I needed. Anxiety meds, not adhd meds. Actuaaly your story makes me feel even more confident that I don't have ADHD. It is only now that we are raising my effexor that I don't worry about dying every minute of every day. Just every other minute.
Posted by stargazer on July 27, 2006, at 23:26:13
In reply to Re: Effexor - A personal experience adhd v. anxiet, posted by Tracer98 on July 27, 2006, at 14:33:01
Paradoxical...a medication effect that is not the intended one. So many things to confuse and bewilder us when we have trouble processing anyway. That post about seritonin and all those numbers followed by letters (i.e. 5-HT) are the neurochemical processes by which AD's and other meds work. Most of the chemical terms I find confusing, so don't feel alone. We all bring good knowledge to this forum.
Speaking of paradoxical effects...how many kids died before they discovered that SI was a SE (side effect) of AD's? Adults were basically ignored, assumption being that adults should be able to handle this better than children (not always true), esp with sick, depressed zombies. But we do have a better chance of being heard or educating ourselves, i.e PsychoBabble, except my med trial days predated PsychoBabble. I do have a clinical background so I was able to read package inserts, communicate on level with my pdoc, unlike so many trying these meds for the first time (sitting ducks).
Drug companies hate to include side effects unless they are pushed to do it...God forbid their profits might fall a percent. It must be tough to keep ahead of your competition with the drug smorgasbord available to choose from.
Well time to take my highball...a little late but equally effective and satisfying (Marplan, Lamicatal and Risperdal).
SG
Posted by linkadge on July 28, 2006, at 21:44:51
In reply to Re: Effexor - A personal experience (long read), posted by stargazer on July 26, 2006, at 21:07:51
Yeah, effexor started a strange deep lingering fear in some part of my brain.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 28, 2006, at 21:46:25
In reply to Re: Effexor - A personal experience (long read), posted by wacky on July 27, 2006, at 9:15:28
"And they think marijuana is dangerous"
Crazy isn't it?
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 28, 2006, at 21:49:14
In reply to Re: Effexor - A personal experience (long read), posted by Myrk on July 27, 2006, at 10:39:25
"The thing I don't get is that, sometimes, these weren't survival techniques or ways of prolonging my life. Some of them were just sadistic"
I know what you are saying. Drugs can do funny things. They can make you consider things you may not have before. For some people, these drugs can cause a degree of disinhibition.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 28, 2006, at 21:51:13
In reply to Re: Effexor - A personal experience adhd v. anxiet, posted by Tracer98 on July 27, 2006, at 14:33:01
SSRI's can often make ADHD worse.
Linkdge
Posted by SLS on July 29, 2006, at 5:40:58
In reply to Re: Effexor - A personal experience (long read), posted by linkadge on July 28, 2006, at 21:46:25
> "And they think marijuana is dangerous"
>
> Crazy isn't it?Well, I have read in medical literature that smoking marijuana can produce psychotic events and precipitate or accelerate the course of schizophrenia. It might also produce a dimunition in memory function. All in all, smoking marijuana might not be completely innocuous. However, this does not rule-out the potential therapeutic value of specific cannabinoids.
- Scott.
Posted by linkadge on July 29, 2006, at 21:29:08
In reply to Re: Effexor - A personal experience (long read), posted by SLS on July 29, 2006, at 5:40:58
>Well, I have read in medical literature that >smoking marijuana can produce psychotic events
This is a potential side effect of smoking marajuanna. Most people who do smoke it however, do not report this as a long term effect. For most people it is transient. I have had *much* more destinct psychotic like events from use of tricyclic antidepressants. I am under the impression that the anticholinergic effect of both agents is what can precipitate this effect in certan individuals.
>and precipitate or accelerate the course of >schizophrenia.
It is very hard to say too, that a drug that produces psychotic like symptoms actually produces schizophrenia. A drug may cause the symptoms without producing any of the structural abnormalities seen in true schizohprenia.
This proposition too is highly debatable. A very high percentage of people with schizoprenia smoke marajuanna, so the natural assumption is that one causes the other. People with schizophrenia are also highly likely to smoke cigarettes and drink coffee, which has lead to an altranate explaination: the idea that all of these agents are an attempt to combat the negative symptoms of the disease like anhedonia, prefrontal hypofunction etc.
Another thing that is inherently very difficult to tease sense from, is that while a person with a predisposition to schizophrenia may worsen his or her case by smoking marajuanna, it may not be a direct effect from the drug. It could be, for instance, the fact that the drug might make one more antisocial, or the drug lifestyle itself.
There is a growing belief too that compounds in marajuanna might acually have antipsychotic qualities, and therefore theraptutic to this subgroup in a different way. Certain cannabanoids block the production of dopamine in certain areas of the brain.
http://www.ndsn.org/summer99/marij3.html
In many ways the cannabis/schizoprenia link was used to a high degree as part of anti drug propeganda.
I havn't come across any convincing evidence that suggests marajuanna actually causes schizophrenia.
>It might also produce a dimunition in memory >function. All in all, smoking marijuana might >not be completely innocuous.There is litte evidence that the substance actually damamges the brain. Most of these side effects are due to the fact that the drug has strong anticholinergic effects, which can create memory problems. There is research to show that these effects go away after a period of abstainaince. The long half-life of the drug will also create problems in the asessment of memory complaints. Another issue to, is that the drug withdrawl (like withdrawl from caffine) may present with cognitive problems, untill the brain resets itself.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on July 29, 2006, at 23:13:16
In reply to Re: Effexor - A personal experience (long read), posted by linkadge on July 29, 2006, at 21:29:08
Hi Link.
> > Well, I have read in medical literature that smoking marijuana can produce psychotic events
> This is a potential side effect of smoking marajuanna. Most people who do smoke it however, do not report this as a long term effect. For most people it is transient.It might be significant that it occurs at all, though.
> > and precipitate or accelerate the course of >schizophrenia.
> It is very hard to say too, that a drug that produces psychotic like symptoms actually produces schizophrenia. A drug may cause the symptoms without producing any of the structural abnormalities seen in true schizohprenia.
I think it becomes important to view schizophrenia as a disease with a multifactorial etiology. Much of the disease process is programmed genetically and lies waiting for biological cues. Twin studies provide evidence that genetics alone do not determine its evolution. Epigenetic factors are at work, which include psychosocial and physiological aspects. Marijuana use can produce alterations in both of these components of psychobiological function, and perhaps acts to trigger the advancement of the disease process. Marijuana itself might not act directly on cellular structure to change the morphology of the brain and enlarge the ventricals, but its placing stress on the system as a whole might produce a cascade of events that leads to this.> This proposition too is highly debatable. A very high percentage of people with schizoprenia smoke marajuanna, so the natural assumption is that one causes the other.
The number of studies demonstrating a positive association between the two is scary. I would begin to contemplate the possibility of an inconveniently untoward scenario.
> People with schizophrenia are also highly likely to smoke cigarettes and drink coffee, which has lead to an altranate explaination: the idea that all of these agents are an attempt to combat the negative symptoms of the disease like anhedonia, prefrontal hypofunction etc.
I think this is a very likely motivation for people with schizophrenia to smoke marijuana once they become sick. However, this does not preclude the possibility that smoking pot helped them get them sick in the first place.
> Another thing that is inherently very difficult to tease sense from, is that while a person with a predisposition to schizophrenia may worsen his or her case by smoking marajuanna, it may not be a direct effect from the drug. It could be, for instance, the fact that the drug might make one more antisocial, or the drug lifestyle itself.
That's one part of the psychosocial stuff I mentioned. The other part is represented by the psychotropic effects of the drug. The scope of the psychobiological alterations produced by smoking marijuana goes beyond stimulating a few more CB1 receptors.
> There is a growing belief too that compounds in marajuanna might acually have antipsychotic qualities,
I would like to see more material on this subject. This is fascinating stuff.
> and therefore theraptutic to this subgroup in a different way. Certain cannabanoids block the production of dopamine in certain areas of the brain.
Even if there were some compounds in there with these properties, what is the net effect of all the compounds taken together?
I'll need to investigate this stuff a lot further to be of any use to anyone, but I thought most of what THC did to dopaminergic pathways was stimulatory, not inhibitory. I guess it must depend on what circuits are involved.
> In many ways the cannabis/schizoprenia link was used to a high degree as part of anti drug propeganda.
Perhaps. On the other hand, perhaps it is simply being used as a fact. I am not convinced one way or the other. I am really very new to all of this. Keep in mind that there are substances out there that can produce a lifetime of psychedelic flashbacks that are unwanted and refractory to remediation.
> >It might also produce a dimunition in memory >function. All in all, smoking marijuana might >not be completely innocuous.
> There is litte evidence that the substance actually damamges the brain.Unfortunately, I think the case for marijuana exacerbating schizophrenia looks stronger than does the case for its impairing memory function.
> There is research to show that these effects go away after a period of abstainaince.
Yes. I've seen them.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on July 30, 2006, at 0:46:41
In reply to Re: Effexor - A personal experience (long read), posted by SLS on July 29, 2006, at 23:13:16
>It might be significant that it occurs at all, >though.To say that a psychotic reaction exists is not necessarily sufficiant (IMHO) to ban the substance from those who do attain benifit. Its the same with the TCA's. They can cause psychosis, but this does not negate there theraputic potential.
>I think it becomes important to view >schizophrenia as a disease with a >multifactorial etiology. Much of the disease >process is programmed genetically and lies >waiting for biological cues. Twin studies >provide evidence that genetics alone do not >determine its evolution. Epigenetic factors are >at work, which include psychosocial and >physiological aspects. Marijuana use can >produce alterations in both of these components >of psychobiological function, and perhaps acts >to trigger the advancement of the disease >process. Marijuana itself might not act >directly on cellular structure to change the >morphology of the brain and enlarge the >ventricals, but its placing stress on the >system as a whole might produce a cascade of >events that leads to this.
It is my opinion that those with schizophrenia who try the substance may find that it may lead to more dramatic changes than a regular person. Marajuanna can lead to a very rapid amelioration of overactive HPA axis function for instance.
>The number of studies demonstrating a positive >association between the two is scary. I would >begin to contemplate the possibility of an >inconveniently untoward scenario.
I think the association is just as strong between caffiene and schizophrenia, but I would not suggest that caffiene causes schizophrenia. Show me one article that conclusivly links one to the other.
>I think this is a very likely motivation for >people with schizophrenia to smoke marijuana >once they become sick. However, this does not >preclude the possibility that smoking pot >helped them get them sick in the first place.
Unless you can prove a direct association (which has not been done), its not really fair to implicate the substance, otherwise you work to promote a negative opinion which might impede progress in the area. For instaance, how long has the notion that marajuanna kills brain cells been around? There is little evidence to suggest this, and infact there is evidence to suggest the opposite.
http://biopsychiatry.com/cannabinoids-neogenesis.htm
Because of my cluster of symptoms, I was imediately drawn to the effect that the substance had. If I had been dignosed with a mental illness after using it, the false assumption would be that one caused the other.
>That's one part of the psychosocial stuff I >mentioned. The other part is represented by the >psychotropic effects of the drug. The scope of >the psychobiological alterations produced by >smoking marijuana goes beyond stimulating a few >more CB1 receptors.
Yeah, less CRH, increased neurogenesis, pain relief, appetite increase, improved sleep etc, neuroprotection, potential mood stabilization. To me it comes as no suprise. It seems there may
be strong genetic links between bipolar and schizophrenia. To me, it comes as no suprise that a (growing) group of bipolar individuals claim the substance has mood stabalizing properties. People don't make that claim for other abusable substances. (Nobody ever claimed that cocaine helped their bipolar.)http://cannabis.net/bipolar-disorder/index.html
>Even if there were some compounds in there with >these properties, what is the net effect of all >the compounds taken together?
You're right, more research needs to be done. At this stage, I'm not condoning the *promotion* of the substance for these disorders, I am simply suggesting that those who do find it of theraputic potential be allowed to use it legally.
>I'll need to investigate this stuff a lot >further to be of any use to anyone, but I >thought most of what THC did to dopaminergic >pathways was stimulatory, not inhibitory. I >guess it must depend on what circuits are >involved.
You are right, the substance does activate the pleasure circutry, and for that reason it has been viewed as evil. This effect does not make it a stimulant though. Opiates will also increase dopamine in the NAA, but that does not mean they will make you go on a wild spening spree. It just might mean the substance is rewarding to some degree.
Even this needs to be taken in context. With crack for instance, a mouse will self inject without regard for food or water till they die. This simply does not happen with marajuana. The mouse will get stoned, then it will stop self administering. It will still find time to eat and sleep. Marajuanna displays very different reinforcement patterns than other drugs of abuse.
It has a very long biological half life meaning that withdrawl for most people is no reason to jump off a bridge.
> In many ways the cannabis/schizoprenia link was used to a high degree as part of anti drug propeganda.>Perhaps. On the other hand, perhaps it is >simply being used as a fact. I am not convinced >one way or the other. I am really very new to >all of this. Keep in mind that there are >substances out there that can produce a >lifetime of psychedelic flashbacks that are >unwanted and refractory to remediation.
It is not a fact. It has been previously assumed, but without much formal proof.
It is a very difficult thing to proove, and all we really have still is an association.I am not saying that people can't have bad experiences with the substance. I personally have really bad flashbacks to the time I was given a combination of ritalin, remeron, and zoloft, or even lithium and celexa has given me a form of HPPD.
I'm not trying to dismiss such cases, I guess I am just suggesting that people rethink some of the misconceptions. I've certainly had to rethink some of the misconceptions I had about prescription antidepressants. I mean, can you believe that I was under the misconception that they weren't addictive? (excuse the sacasm :))
>Unfortunately, I think the case for marijuana >exacerbating schizophrenia looks stronger than >does the case for its impairing memory function.
Well, it has been touted (without much formal investigation), that marajuanna users are at higher risk for depression. Unfounded?
----------
Largest-Ever Study of Marijuana, Depression Finds Fewer Depressive Symptoms, Better Mood
ALBANY, NEW YORK—In the largest-ever study of marijuana and depression, to be published in the journal Addictive Behaviors, daily or weekly marijuana users had fewer symptoms of depression than non-users. Marijuana users were also more likely to report positive moods and fewer somatic complaints such as sleeplessness. Noteworthy differences were also found between those using marijuana for medical purposes and non-medical or "recreational" users.
..
"Not only does marijuana not cause depression, it looks like it may actually alleviate it," said Mitch Earleywine, co-author of the new study and associate professor of psychology at the University at Albany, State University of New York.
------------This would fit nicely with the recent evidence that marajuanna (unlike other drugs of abuse), may promotes neurogenesis.
I think the following article is a fair assessment, it says a lot of what has been said here. They said they found a small link between onset in cannabis users with a low acting version of COMT only. Those without the varient showed no increase onset.
http://cannabisnews.com/news/21/thread21523.shtml
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on July 30, 2006, at 7:49:07
In reply to Re: Effexor - A personal experience (long read), posted by linkadge on July 30, 2006, at 0:46:41
Hi.
> To say that a psychotic reaction exists is not necessarily sufficiant (IMHO) to ban the substance from those who do attain benifit.
I think each drug must be evaluated on its own on a risk versus benefit basis.
> Its the same with the TCA's. They can cause psychosis,
I have never heard of a single case of this happening. This is not to say that it has not, but certainly, the rate of this adverse event occuring is miniscule by comparison to marijuana.
> but this does not negate there theraputic potential.
Risk versus benefit based upon psychosis as the axis of risk and the amelioration of depression as the benefit might not allow marijuana to have a place on a national formulation for MDD as do the TCAs.
> Show me one article that conclusivly links one to the other
Now, what exactly should such an article look like? What do you imagine proof could be without actually subjecting people with risk factors of developing schizophrenia to marijuana? Perhaps even twin studies?
Chosen from here:
I guess one can find whatever one is looking for. Like I said, I am not convinced one way or the other. However, there is enough there to make me think twice before using marijuana were I at risk for developing schizophrenia.
> Unless you can prove a direct association (which has not been done), its not really fair to implicate the substance
Fair? Are we supposed to be fair to a substance or to the pusuit of knowledge? What exactly is a "direct" association. An association is nothing more than a statistical co-occurrence. It is not an explanation of cause and effect. Is it being "unfair" to present statistics?
- Scott
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