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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by linkadge on November 27, 2006, at 18:47:43
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by aeon on November 27, 2006, at 18:15:30
Hey, thanks for that, it was important.
>playing a role of the happy functioning guy who >has finally recovered.Bingo. You need to fake it all the time. For inststance, I wanted out of the hospital so I faked being well just so they'd let me out. Was I still suicidal, of course. Was I any better than when I went in? No.
But I guess the point I am trying to make is that this society is like "The Emperors New CLoths". YOu know the kids story, where everybody pretends that the emperor is wearing cloths just because they don't want to get into trouble.
Then one kid says, hey, the emperor is not wearing anything.
Its the same with happiness. You can't just say, "Hey, recovery is possable cause look at all the happy people around you"This society would fall flat on its face if everyone went around acting like how they felt.
Antidepressants have just made the situation worse. They've made it even harder for people to express how they really feel. Cause now, its not normal to be depressed. If you feel like crap, you've got to see a therapist to get that fixed up.
Maybe we all feel like crap for all I know.Like I originally said, I cannot trust my own presentations to the world, therefore I cannot trust other's presentations.
Linkadge
Posted by Jost on November 27, 2006, at 19:01:18
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 27, 2006, at 18:47:43
I'm not sure what people in this discussion mean by "happiness."
If by happiness you mean a monolithic, uninterrupted upbeat sense that life is a bowl of cherries-- or interlude in Eden-- or devoid of pain, disappointment, loss etc-- no, I'd say no one is happy.
I don't think of myself as a happy person-- and probably would say I'm somewhere between a very and pretty unhappy person-- and have been very depressed most of my life-- but I;ve experienced moments of happiness,excitement, warmth, closeness, signifcance, accomplishment-- which I also don't want to deny or annul.
I wish I'd experienced more of them-- and less of the dark emotions-- but my thought is that belief in happiness or the possiblity of meaning (even transient, partial happiness or meaning) is something like Pascal's wager-- if it does exist, I don't want to adhere to beliefs that would make it less likely (or even impossible) for me to experience as much of it as I can-- that would in effect destroy even my present hope for the future-- as well as the likelihood that that future can evolve out of this present.
Not that your current disbelief does negate it-- but it does darken the prospect of the future-- and also perhaps hinder you from working effectively toward whatever part of happiness you really could enjoy. Which is itself a sad thing-- and maybe doesn't have to be that way-- at least, sometime.
Jost
Posted by aeon on November 27, 2006, at 19:10:38
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 27, 2006, at 18:47:43
**Maybe we all feel like crap for all I know.**
I wondered this for a long time and the evidence for me stacks up that no they don't. We tend to extrapolate our emotional state to others its human nature... many do but it is not normal.
The whole situation becomes even more stupid if you ever happen to get shackled with the life sentence bipolar. You then have to be double vigilant... actually for me happiness is not even allowed, I have to be real careful in the times when I do feel "better" not get elated from the sheer relief of it and mistakenly tell someone like the (doctor)how great it feels.
I'll be whipped off back to the hospital in a second or worse have the meds removed that were giving me the brief relief.
I am in a catch 22 I can't show my depression and I can't show my happiness. I have to be on an even keel at all times. I just don't talk anymore. "How are you?" "Fine". I am in an emotional prison both within and without.
Hope, that's all we really have, that is the only thing that keeps us going. I observe other people because they give me hope that this is NOT human nature, it is just a disease. That's why I spend hours and hours looking for some slight hope that this or that herb, supp, med, or SOMETHING will be my magic.
I know my hope is misfounded. I am not stupid. I truly do not REALLY believe I will ever feel like they do. But what else is there? Depression + Despair = Death. I've been there and had to come back. So I cling to stupid, mindless brainless hope in the face of hopelessness.
One last thing: Those cognitive beahviourists can stick their happy thoughts you know where! :-) Cause I've tried it, over and over and over again, and thoughts do NOT affect your emotions when you are depressed because DEPRESSION IS NOT AN EMOTION and it overrides all other feelings.
Posted by Phillipa on November 27, 2006, at 19:18:18
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by Jost on November 27, 2006, at 19:01:18
Wow I guess this is something like what Scott has been saying as right now I feel like one lucky cookie. As I was truly happy til I was 50 years old. Yes happy the wow I want to wash the sheets and want to hang them outside to dry. Oh I had bad times like my Son's blindness and divorces but I was happy working in nursing. I loved it. Looked forward to it everyday. Now I know most of you are more educated than I am but for me this was more than I'd ever hoped for. To be a nurse and graduate magna cum laude and win scholarships without any effort was fun and a high. And running was the ultimate high. Any problem I had was gone or solved in my mind about l hour after a run. Right now I feel very lucky to have had this time. So even my Mother dying when I was l7 derailed me but I went on to get married to my high school sweetheart and have three kids all well off and educated today. I traveled the World literally and the Caribbean, and Hawaii twice. And had the privlege of being married to more than one man all who taught me something. And we all parted as friends. So Scott thanks for setting me straight. And I could care less about the lottery. Seriously only enough money to allow yourself freedom is what you need not millions I don't even want that. Oh and my Mother said that if you lose your health you lose everything. Well she was right about that. Thanks guys Love Phillipa/Jan
Posted by Jost on November 27, 2006, at 20:56:01
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by Phillipa on November 27, 2006, at 19:18:18
I wanted to clarify that it's not a choice in lots of ways, but something that you can work on.
I don't think that in my most depressed times, I could possibly have chosen to feel differently-- but that I've been lucky enough to get some help, and to get to a place where I can sometimes make choices that have consequences.
So the choice really is a small nudge at moments when there's some opening-- which there isn't often. But sometimes there is, and then it can make much more of a difference than it's easy to explain.
Hope isn't something you can force.. I know when anyone's feeling really bad, there isn't much to do but try to make it to the next day, or the next hour.Jost
Posted by SLS on November 28, 2006, at 6:57:16
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by linkadge on November 27, 2006, at 18:36:22
> I don't believe it, give me a million dollers I will proove you're wrong.
No. You give me a million dollars first so that I can prove me right.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by SLS on November 28, 2006, at 7:21:12
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by aeon on November 27, 2006, at 19:10:38
> I know my hope is misfounded. I am not stupid. I truly do not REALLY believe I will ever feel like they do. But what else is there? Depression + Despair = Death. I've been there and had to come back. So I cling to stupid, mindless brainless hope in the face of hopelessness.
I know. That's what it comes down to for me sometimes, too. It is a survival mechanism. It is pretty stupid if you think about it.
I guess I still have hope that one of the drugs of the future might work. I just don't like the fact that they are still a few years away.
http://neurotransmitter.net/newdrugs.html
I am also beginning to think seriously about VNS. I think the fact that dysautonomia is a feature of my illness might indicate its usefulness. I need to research it some more, though.
For bipolar depression, I'm currently taking:
Nardil 60mg
nortriptyline 100mg
Lamictal 150mg
Topamax 100mg
Abilify 10mgHave you tried anything like this yet?
I added the Nardil a few weeks ago.
I have some concerns that I will develop serotonin syndrome from the interaction between Nardil and nortriptyline.
- Scott
Posted by aeon on November 28, 2006, at 7:53:14
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » aeon, posted by SLS on November 28, 2006, at 7:21:12
>>Have you tried anything like this yet?>>
No, I hope to get Nardil soon, and an ADHD stimulant but noone will prescribe them over here for adults.
So to compensate I'm currently on
Parnate 40mg (60 if I feel real low but then I run out early and have to go to the doc with my tail between my legs and say that I "lost" some again, he won't go higher)
Deprenyl 5-10mg (Don't tell the doc!)
Moclobemide - 150mg if I need an extra boost (which is most days)(again not a word!)
Coffee - 6 cups strong, black no sugar
Cigarettes - Many
Plus a wide and varied assortment of natural supps which changes daily.
These are not making me happy. They allow me to go on, to put food on the table, to appear reasonably OK. Still, I am dead inside most of the time.
Yes, yes I know combining all these MAOI's is DANGEROUS. Do I care? Long past caring... I do what it takes to get me through the day.
I don't have any trouble with sleep... I'm a sleepy depressive so no need for sleeping aids, even though all the above are supposedly stimulating. In fact I have my last coffee before retiring.
aeon
Posted by SLS on November 28, 2006, at 8:25:56
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by aeon on November 28, 2006, at 7:53:14
> >>Have you tried anything like this yet?>>
>
> No, I hope to get Nardil soon, and an ADHD stimulant but noone will prescribe them over here for adults.Maybe Provigil or Adrafinil then?
> So to compensate I'm currently on...
Wow.
> Parnate 40mg (60 if I feel real low but then I run out early and have to go to the doc with my tail between my legs and say that I "lost" some again, he won't go higher)
Damn. 60-80mg is ideal.
> Deprenyl 5-10mg (Don't tell the doc!)
> Moclobemide - 150mg if I need an extra boost (which is most days)(again not a word!)
> Coffee - 6 cups strong, black no sugar
> Cigarettes - Many
> Plus a wide and varied assortment of natural supps which changes daily.
> These are not making me happy.> They allow me to go on, to put food on the table, to appear reasonably OK. Still, I am dead inside most of the time.
I totally understand. Without all of the crap I take, I doubt I could function well enough to maintain my independence.
> Yes, yes I know combining all these MAOI's is DANGEROUS. Do I care? Long past caring... I do what it takes to get me through the day.
Yup.
> I don't have any trouble with sleep...
I hope Nardil treats you differently. Insomnia with an MAOI is a good sign for me. When Nardil worked for me, it made me feel more alive inside than did Parnate. However, it was a combination of Parnate + desipramine that gave me my longest period of remission. Whatever you do, don't mix Parnate with a potent serotonin reuptake inhibitor like an SSRI, Effexor, Cymbalta, or Anafranil. A severe serotonin syndrome reaction is almost guaranteed, and can be dangerous. I once tried to test the waters with Parnate by taking a single 12.5mg dose of Effexor. I experienced delirium and muscle rigidity. Fortunately, it resolved quickly.
- Scott
Posted by Caedmon on November 28, 2006, at 8:36:52
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by SLS on November 28, 2006, at 6:57:16
I do not think that unhappiness and pathological depression are the same thing. Jost has it right IMHO. Unhappiness - even periods of very deep grief, loneliness, isolation - occur in *everyone*. So do periods of "faking it" wrt being in a good mood. That's normal.
This does not mean that they are unhappy with their lives as a whole.
Happiness as an emotion can never be permanently sustained, but a life worth living - and that is *ultimately* satisfying - most certainly can.
- Chris
Posted by linkadge on November 28, 2006, at 8:42:23
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by SLS on November 28, 2006, at 6:57:16
Well, then when the million dollars has lost all meaning for you, you can donate it to me.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 28, 2006, at 8:44:54
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by aeon on November 28, 2006, at 7:53:14
Wow, between,
the parnate (MAOa inibition)
the Coffee (MAOa inhibition (beta carbolines))
the cigarettes (MAOa inhibition (beta carbolines))
the moclobemide(MAOa inhibition)
the quercetin (MAOa inhibtion)you ought to have no MAO-A left.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on November 28, 2006, at 18:19:09
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » aeon, posted by SLS on November 28, 2006, at 7:21:12
Scott what is dysautonomia? Never heard that before. You research so much. And could Serotonin sydrome occurr now after you've been on the combo for a few weeks. Does it build up in your system and then cause it? Love Jan
Posted by Phillipa on November 28, 2006, at 18:21:12
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by aeon on November 28, 2006, at 7:53:14
Please care about you. I don't know you but I care about you. Love Phillipa
Posted by SLS on November 28, 2006, at 19:51:45
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » SLS, posted by Phillipa on November 28, 2006, at 18:19:09
> Scott what is dysautonomia? Never heard that before. You research so much. And could Serotonin sydrome occurr now after you've been on the combo for a few weeks. Does it build up in your system and then cause it? Love Jan
You ask all the right questions, Jan.
Dysautonomia is an imbalance of the autonomic nervous system. In my case, it is skewed towards the sympathetic: increased heart rate, dry mouth, constipation, blurred vision, mydriasis, dizziness, muscle weakness, breathlessness upon exertion, etc.
It takes at least a week at a particular dosage of an MAOI for MAO inhibition to build up. I have been on 60mg for 6 days. I began feeling weird yesterday with some mental confusion, ataxia, dizziness, muscle stiffness around my torso, and slightly slurred speech. Today has been better, although these things have not completely disappeared. I was concerned that this was the onset of serotonin syndrome. Maybe it wasn't. I remain hopeful.
- Scott
Posted by clint878 on November 28, 2006, at 19:55:16
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » clint878, posted by linkadge on November 27, 2006, at 18:37:06
I took it for five days, only 200mg/day, beginning on August 5. I discontinued it because I was suffering from memory loss and confusion. On the sixth day, I became completely unable to do anything - with severe panic attacks and depression with so much energy I thought my head would explode. A few days later, I became unable to sleep, for four days straight at a time. One time I was so sleep-deprived I fainted. I would pace for hours and hours. I had no emotions; in fact, I couldn't think clearly enough to even understand the concept of emotions. I nearly committed suicide several times because I couldn't think.
It took eight weeks before a doctor was able to provide me any help with the condition. He said that I have a "minor variant of bipolar disorder" and prescribed Lamictal. Yet, even though all the symptoms above have subsided except for the memory problems, nobody can tell me why I still can't keep any thought in my head for more for three seconds. I have difficulty coming up with the right words, which has caused several incidents where I have appeared extremely stupid. And driving is another story, because I can't process everything that's going on around me in real-time, with the world being out-of-focus. I remember very little of what happened the past three months.
As a result of this, I lost a promotion, and will probably be out of a job within a few months unless someone can help me. Probably, I'll have to throw away my master's degree in computer science and engineering and do some low-paying labor or secretarial work.
This post took me almost an hour to write because I lose my train of thought so frequently and can't come up with the right words.
It's amazing how one day I could be a little depressed, just looking for a minor boost with a low dose of Sam-E, and a week later, become so completely unable to think that it's almost not worth living. I'm not suicidal, so don't call the police, but I still see little good I can do by continuing to exist without a mind.
Posted by Phillipa on November 28, 2006, at 21:07:03
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » linkadge, posted by clint878 on November 28, 2006, at 19:55:16
Clint this was from Samee something available in a health food store. How horrible. I'm so sorry. Love Phillipa
Posted by SLS on November 28, 2006, at 21:38:23
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » linkadge, posted by clint878 on November 28, 2006, at 19:55:16
How much Lamictal are you taking?
300mg makes me stupid.
Lamictal is well-known to produce memory problems. However, at higher dosages, I find that it produces more general cognitive impairments as well.
- Scott
Posted by cecilia on November 28, 2006, at 22:22:21
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » clint878, posted by SLS on November 28, 2006, at 21:38:23
Well, unhappiness and depression may not be the same thing, but I'm not sure what the difference is in the long run, either way you have a miserable life. I suppose I must have unhappiness, not depression, since I've never responded to an AD, but I certainly meet the DSM criteria for depression. I suppose unhappiness can cause depression and depression can cause unhappiness. As for money making you happy, there's certainly nothing I can think of buying that would make me happy. I wasted a lot of money on therapy; I don't know, maybe that made my therapist happy but it certainly did nothing for me. Cecilia
Posted by Phillipa on November 28, 2006, at 22:52:14
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by cecilia on November 28, 2006, at 22:22:21
Well said. Cause now that's the way it is. I'll never feel the way I did years ago. And your right the therapists and pdocs are happy. Wonder if they take meds? Love Phillipa
Posted by stargazer on November 28, 2006, at 23:58:30
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » clint878, posted by SLS on November 28, 2006, at 21:38:23
Lamictal messed me up too cognitively, I was not able to remember anything for more than a brief moment. I would deny someone saying something to me. They would look at me like I was out of it, which I guess, in retrospect, I was.
I swear it was from the Lamictal, but for some reason my pdoc wanted me to stay on it along with some other meds, can't remember now what they were (memory was deleted). I decided to wean off it and it was the right thing to do.
That's an example of me saying to my pdoc, "it's making me worse" and eventually feeling better and proving I was right.
Currently I'm on Seroquel, which my pdoc also wanted me to stay on at higher doses than I am currently on and I insisted it was making me lightheaded and dizzy and with a past year of falling on my face, I have weaned myself down to 25-50 mg from 200 mg. One day I took only 50 mg during the day instead of at night and I felt almost immediately off balance. These drugs can really mess you up if you don't watch out for yourself, since sometimes you are all alone with your bad self. Sorry for bad joke.
Why do I have to tell my pdoc what is the right thing to do. Sometimes it does get really frustrating but in the long run, he's still better than most docs I hear of.
SG
Posted by Declan on November 29, 2006, at 0:53:35
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not., posted by cecilia on November 28, 2006, at 22:22:21
For me unhappiness and depression are indistinguishable, except that unhappiness is a real word and depression is not.
Also unhappiness is a word with historical resonance, whereas someone thought depression up far too recently.If it's happiness/unhappiness, then we should be able to do it for each other. If it's depression, something should work, therapy or drugs.
Bit of a f*ck up.
Posted by cecilia on November 29, 2006, at 1:45:06
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » cecilia, posted by Phillipa on November 28, 2006, at 22:52:14
Well, I think a lot of the therapists and pdocs are faking it too. Pdocs, in particular, who have easy access to med samples, have a very high suicide rate. Cecilia
Posted by cecilia on November 29, 2006, at 1:58:32
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » Phillipa, posted by cecilia on November 29, 2006, at 1:45:06
And I'm willing to bet that most of the pdocs who kill themselves have plenty of money. Cecilia
Posted by Declan on November 29, 2006, at 12:33:06
In reply to Re: It's Treatable. No, it's not. » Phillipa, posted by cecilia on November 29, 2006, at 1:45:06
So do anaesthetists, but they have better drugs.
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