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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by myco on March 8, 2009, at 13:41:21
Couple interesting studies on the role of dopamine on seratonin and seratonin on dopamine:
1)
"Long-Term L-DOPA Treatment Causes
Indiscriminate Increase in Dopamine Levels
at the Cost of Serotonin Synthesis in
Discrete Brain Regions of Rats"(http://www.neuroassist.com/L-dopa%20depletes%20serotonin%20articlex.pdf)
2)
"THE EFFECTS OF 5-HYDROXYTRYPTOPHAN AND
5-HYDROXYTRYPTAMINE ON DOPAMINE
SYNTHESIS AND RELEASE IN RAT BRAIN
STRIATAL SYNAPTOSOMES"
Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on March 8, 2009, at 14:16:07
In reply to Couple studies on inverse relationship of DA + SE, posted by myco on March 8, 2009, at 13:41:21
Yeah that's why I think SSRIs often are bad buisness for long-term depression. Less dopamine is bad news for love, motivation, energy, concentration, passion. things lacking in "conventional" depression.
SSRIs have left me flat, unmotivated and apathetic. That is my personal experience though. They work differently for others.
Posted by myco on March 8, 2009, at 14:50:45
In reply to Re: Couple studies on inverse relationship of DA + SE, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on March 8, 2009, at 14:16:07
Have you tried meds outside the SSRI class? Something like a maoi that plays on seratonin, dopamine, norephinephrine, and GABA (or addition to get this)? Many people need a balance
> Yeah that's why I think SSRIs often are bad buisness for long-term depression. Less dopamine is bad news for love, motivation, energy, concentration, passion. things lacking in "conventional" depression.
>
> SSRIs have left me flat, unmotivated and apathetic. That is my personal experience though. They work differently for others.
Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on March 8, 2009, at 15:35:12
In reply to Re: Couple studies on inverse relationship of DA + SE » Alexanderfromdenmark, posted by myco on March 8, 2009, at 14:50:45
> Have you tried meds outside the SSRI class? Something like a maoi that plays on seratonin, dopamine, norephinephrine, and GABA (or addition to get this)? Many people need a balance
>
> > Yeah that's why I think SSRIs often are bad buisness for long-term depression. Less dopamine is bad news for love, motivation, energy, concentration, passion. things lacking in "conventional" depression.
> >
> > SSRIs have left me flat, unmotivated and apathetic. That is my personal experience though. They work differently for others.
>
>I'm looking into correcting endoctrine imbalances right now that can cause depression, fatigue and lots of other nasty stuff. If getting my body into balance does not cure my depression, and if CBT and exercise wont, an MAOI will probably be my first choice. Are MAOI's healthy for the brain in the long run though?
Posted by Phillipa on March 8, 2009, at 16:01:06
In reply to Re: Couple studies on inverse relationship of DA + SE, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on March 8, 2009, at 15:35:12
Hey I'm working on endocrine sytem also. Which problems are you having. Myco not hyjacking you thread just a common bond. I'm terrified of maois at my age. Phillipa
Posted by myco on March 8, 2009, at 16:13:21
In reply to Re: Couple studies on inverse relationship of DA + SE, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on March 8, 2009, at 15:35:12
No studies indicate long term health risks on any AD on the market as far as I know. I have seen studies (follow ups) after a few years but all they focus on is remission etc. If there is any med class out there that has the potential to be of long term benefit though I would say maois...many people have been on them for many years. Granted they are older than SSRI's so the chances of long term use is more likely (i.e. i've talked to those on nardil for 20 years). But...I dont think I know of anyone who has been on an SSRI (therapeutic dose at least) for years. I know certain people may take lil tiny bits to augment some other type of treatment for many years though. For myself, I have no worries about being on nardil for years. Depression and anxiety has been shown to lead to shorter life anyway...increased risks of disease, such as alzheimers and dementia for example. If i'm gonna lose 10 years at the end of my life I would rather my time be well spent on a med with risks that suffer through it unmedicated and bloody miserable.
> > Have you tried meds outside the SSRI class? Something like a maoi that plays on seratonin, dopamine, norephinephrine, and GABA (or addition to get this)? Many people need a balance
> >
> > > Yeah that's why I think SSRIs often are bad buisness for long-term depression. Less dopamine is bad news for love, motivation, energy, concentration, passion. things lacking in "conventional" depression.
> > >
> > > SSRIs have left me flat, unmotivated and apathetic. That is my personal experience though. They work differently for others.
> >
> >
>
> I'm looking into correcting endoctrine imbalances right now that can cause depression, fatigue and lots of other nasty stuff. If getting my body into balance does not cure my depression, and if CBT and exercise wont, an MAOI will probably be my first choice. Are MAOI's healthy for the brain in the long run though?
Posted by myco on March 8, 2009, at 16:14:43
In reply to Re: Couple studies on inverse relationship of DA + SE » Alexanderfromdenmark, posted by Phillipa on March 8, 2009, at 16:01:06
I never feel this way jan...this place is a dialogue. Everyone should add their point of view so the person gets a good spread of opinion. :o)
> Hey I'm working on endocrine sytem also. Which problems are you having. Myco not hyjacking you thread just a common bond. I'm terrified of maois at my age. Phillipa
Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on March 9, 2009, at 9:37:18
In reply to Re: Couple studies on inverse relationship of DA + SE » Alexanderfromdenmark, posted by myco on March 8, 2009, at 16:13:21
> No studies indicate long term health risks on any AD on the market as far as I know. I have seen studies (follow ups) after a few years but all they focus on is remission etc. If there is any med class out there that has the potential to be of long term benefit though I would say maois...many people have been on them for many years. Granted they are older than SSRI's so the chances of long term use is more likely (i.e. i've talked to those on nardil for 20 years). But...I dont think I know of anyone who has been on an SSRI (therapeutic dose at least) for years. I know certain people may take lil tiny bits to augment some other type of treatment for many years though. For myself, I have no worries about being on nardil for years. Depression and anxiety has been shown to lead to shorter life anyway...increased risks of disease, such as alzheimers and dementia for example. If i'm gonna lose 10 years at the end of my life I would rather my time be well spent on a med with risks that suffer through it unmedicated and bloody miserable.
>
>
>
> > > Have you tried meds outside the SSRI class? Something like a maoi that plays on seratonin, dopamine, norephinephrine, and GABA (or addition to get this)? Many people need a balance
> > >
> > > > Yeah that's why I think SSRIs often are bad buisness for long-term depression. Less dopamine is bad news for love, motivation, energy, concentration, passion. things lacking in "conventional" depression.
> > > >
> > > > SSRIs have left me flat, unmotivated and apathetic. That is my personal experience though. They work differently for others.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I'm looking into correcting endoctrine imbalances right now that can cause depression, fatigue and lots of other nasty stuff. If getting my body into balance does not cure my depression, and if CBT and exercise wont, an MAOI will probably be my first choice. Are MAOI's healthy for the brain in the long run though?
>
>What are your benefits and side effects from your own experience with MAOI? How long did it take to work for you? I'm young, so even though depression sucks as much for me, I can still ride it out a bit longer while I'm trying different methods.
Posted by myco on March 9, 2009, at 11:22:31
In reply to Re: Couple studies on inverse relationship of DA + SE, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on March 9, 2009, at 9:37:18
> What are your benefits and side effects from your own experience with MAOI? How long did it take to work for you? I'm young, so even though depression sucks as much for me, I can still ride it out a bit longer while I'm trying different methods.
--------------
Benefit vs side effects - no contest at all.
Anxiety is a huge part of my symptomology (atyp dep/sad/gad) and Nardil does the trick at quashing this nicely.As for benefits: I can read better, focus better, interpret and carry ideas better, I can be out in public without my typical anxiety sweats and near panicky demeanor, I can carry a convo with strangers and not have every muscle in my body tense up, I don't 'blush' as easy when confronted about sexuality, I get along better with family (huge improvement here).
As for sides: Well I ran the whole gamet of sides when I first started. But these pass, they aren't long term issues (most anyway). Long terms sides that remain are insomnia (this will eventually pass I've heard; they make meds and other things to help this), some weight gain (nardil has been shown to affect the deposition and breakdown of adipose tissue - fat)...but I am still kinda lazy and eat carbs voraciously - I can work on that. That's all that remains of my sides. I dont even "feel" nardil in me physically anymore. In order to see what it is doing I have to pay attention to the changes in my behaviours - example: hmm I was just able to sit and have a convo with this person and I didnt react anxiously at all - whats up with that - oh nardil ok. Hmm how come I can walk down the street with head up and eye contact on most people I pass and not sweat and tense up - nardil lol. It's this kind of thing. It just feels like a long term med to me - totally unlike any ssri Ive taken which I suffered sides through entire treatment.
Time to work varies on individual but with each dose increase (including the first starting dose), you can expect 2 weeks or so of sides before some stabilization occurs...then most people will continue to raise for sustained effect. Everytime you raise the dose the sides come back then subside again (it's a cycle)...until you stabilize (more good days then bad).
Well worth the effort in my opinion
Myco
Posted by nellie7 on March 9, 2009, at 13:09:30
In reply to Couple studies on inverse relationship of DA + SE, posted by myco on March 8, 2009, at 13:41:21
It would be interesting to know if the effect on dopamine depletion is assumed to be greater for SSRIs such as celexa or lexapro, since those have the most selective effect on serotonin. Would it be safer to take prozac or zoloft, for instance?
Posted by myco on March 9, 2009, at 13:21:24
In reply to Re: Couple studies on inverse relationship of DA + SE » myco, posted by nellie7 on March 9, 2009, at 13:09:30
Very good question. I don't have an answer at all. I do know that SSRI's are not all created equal in terms of their binding affinities...so seems logical that an answer there is possible although I would suspect it's individual.
> It would be interesting to know if the effect on dopamine depletion is assumed to be greater for SSRIs such as celexa or lexapro, since those have the most selective effect on serotonin. Would it be safer to take prozac or zoloft, for instance?
Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on March 9, 2009, at 16:14:49
In reply to Re: Couple studies on inverse relationship of DA + SE » myco, posted by nellie7 on March 9, 2009, at 13:09:30
> It would be interesting to know if the effect on dopamine depletion is assumed to be greater for SSRIs such as celexa or lexapro, since those have the most selective effect on serotonin. Would it be safer to take prozac or zoloft, for instance?
I must say in my own personal opnion, and I back this up with no scientic evidence at all, that that is excatly the case. Whether its safer I dunno, but I think less selective agents like prozac produce a more "balanced" approach in nerurotransmitters.
Posted by myco on March 9, 2009, at 16:27:11
In reply to Re: Couple studies on inverse relationship of DA + SE, posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on March 9, 2009, at 16:14:49
Perhaps the best in the way of "balance" you can attain Alexander, is the combo of L-Tyrosine and 5-HTP...since it allows you to specifically adjust dosages to a ratio of best fit. Although the efficacy of these supplements is probably no where near that of most rx meds...but I dunno. They work well for augmenting maois, from my perspective. And they are both components of food we eat (not to overargue safety here though).
> > It would be interesting to know if the effect on dopamine depletion is assumed to be greater for SSRIs such as celexa or lexapro, since those have the most selective effect on serotonin. Would it be safer to take prozac or zoloft, for instance?
>
> I must say in my own personal opnion, and I back this up with no scientic evidence at all, that that is excatly the case. Whether its safer I dunno, but I think less selective agents like prozac produce a more "balanced" approach in nerurotransmitters.
This is the end of the thread.
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