![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 16 to 40 of 89. Go back in thread:
Posted by metafunj on November 3, 2009, at 14:53:17
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by TenMan on November 3, 2009, at 14:38:04
Interesting I posted in this thread before this study was even mentioned that I had gotten sun burn from SJW.
Posted by TenMan on November 3, 2009, at 14:59:13
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort » TenMan, posted by metafunj on November 3, 2009, at 14:53:17
> Interesting I posted in this thread before this study was even mentioned that I had gotten sun burn from SJW.
Mild photosensitivity is a well known side effect of SJW. Third degree burns, cataracts and the like are not. Is it possible? Sure, I don't discount that at all. However, I haven't seen anything documented beyond mild sensitivities in the literature. I myself do get burned more easily but that is a minor side effect for the benefits it has brought to me. I have taken SJW for years so I'm well aware of what it can do for me personally.
Posted by bulldog2 on November 3, 2009, at 15:09:46
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort » metafunj, posted by TenMan on November 3, 2009, at 14:59:13
> > Interesting I posted in this thread before this study was even mentioned that I had gotten sun burn from SJW.
>
> Mild photosensitivity is a well known side effect of SJW. Third degree burns, cataracts and the like are not. Is it possible? Sure, I don't discount that at all. However, I haven't seen anything documented beyond mild sensitivities in the literature. I myself do get burned more easily but that is a minor side effect for the benefits it has brought to me. I have taken SJW for years so I'm well aware of what it can do for me personally.
>
>
>Here is a list of side effects from a well known sjw site who is very pro sjw. There is a lot of good information if you go into the main site.
Posted by TenMan on November 3, 2009, at 15:14:12
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by bulldog2 on November 3, 2009, at 15:09:46
>
> Here is a list of side effects from a well known sjw site who is very pro sjw. There is a lot of good information if you go into the main site.
>
> http://www.sjwinfo.org/sideeffects.phpThank you for the link, but I am well aware of that site. I actually posted a link to it earlier in this very thread, if you had read my posts.
Now, do you actually have anything in the literature to substantiate your claim that SJW can cause massive burns and cataracts among users taking the standardized dosages? Preliminary research and anecdote aside, is there anything that warrants the alarmist tone of your posts?
Posted by bulldog2 on November 3, 2009, at 15:27:26
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by TenMan on November 3, 2009, at 14:26:08
>
>
> > I guess that depends upon whose data and interpretations you place your trust in.
>
>
> I was basing my opinion of this Cochrane Review:
>
> Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2008 Oct 8;(4):CD000448.
> St John's wort for major depression.
>
> Linde K, Berner MM, Kriston L.
>
> Centre for Complementary Medicine Research, Department of Internal Medicine II, Technische Universitaet Muenchen, Wolfgangstr. 8, Munich, Germany, 81667.
>
> Comment in:
>
> * Evid Based Ment Health. 2009 Aug;12(3):78.
>
> Update of:
>
> * Cochrane Database Syst Rev. 2005;(2):CD000448.
>
> BACKGROUND: In some countries extracts of the plant Hypericum perforatum L. (popularly called St. John's wort) are widely used for treating patients with depressive symptoms. OBJECTIVES: To investigate whether extracts of hypericum are more effective than placebo and as effective as standard antidepressants in the treatment of major depression; and whether they have fewer adverse effects than standard antidepressant drugs. SEARCH STRATEGY: Trials were searched in computerised databases, by checking bibliographies of relevant articles, and by contacting manufacturers and researchers. SELECTION CRITERIA: Trials were included if they: (1) were randomised and double-blind; (2) included patients with major depression; (3) compared extracts of St. John's wort with placebo or standard antidepressants; (4) included clinical outcomes assessing depressive symptoms. DATA COLLECTION AND ANALYSIS: At least two independent reviewers extracted information from study reports. The main outcome measure for assessing effectiveness was the responder rate ratio (the relative risk of having a response to treatment). The main outcome measure for adverse effects was the number of patients dropping out due to adverse effects. MAIN RESULTS: A total of 29 trials (5489 patients) including 18 comparisons with placebo and 17 comparisons with synthetic standard antidepressants met the inclusion criteria. Results of placebo-controlled trials showed marked heterogeneity. In nine larger trials the combined response rate ratio (RR) for hypericum extracts compared with placebo was 1.28 (95% confidence interval (CI), 1.10 to 1.49) and from nine smaller trials was 1.87 (95% CI, 1.22 to 2.87). Results of trials comparing hypericum extracts and standard antidepressants were statistically homogeneous. Compared with tri- or tetracyclic antidepressants and selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), respectively, RRs were 1.02 (95% CI, 0.90 to 1.15; 5 trials) and 1.00 (95% CI, 0.90 to 1.11; 12 trials). Both in placebo-controlled trials and in comparisons with standard antidepressants, trials from German-speaking countries reported findings more favourable to hypericum. Patients given hypericum extracts dropped out of trials due to adverse effects less frequently than those given older antidepressants (odds ratio (OR) 0.24; 95% CI, 0.13 to 0.46) or SSRIs (OR 0.53, 95% CI, 0.34-0.83). AUTHORS' CONCLUSIONS: The available evidence suggests that the hypericum extracts tested in the included trials a) are superior to placebo in patients with major depression; b) are similarly effective as standard antidepressants; c) and have fewer side effects than standard antidepressants. The association of country of origin and precision with effects sizes complicates the interpretation.
>
>I cannot find the dose of the antidepressnats used. If they are in the data could you show me. The dosages I saw in one study were 40 mg of immipramine. The therapeutic dose is around 150 mg. Certainly not 40 mg. I
Posted by SLS on November 3, 2009, at 17:19:38
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by TenMan on November 3, 2009, at 14:26:08
> I was basing my opinion of this Cochrane Review:
Yes. The Cochrane review is often referred to. However, it is really little more than a literature review, and there is not very much sound scientific investigation in the literature available to review. I would rather scrutinize the individual experiments than assume their validity. My current belief is that the efficacy of SJW is often exaggerated.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on November 3, 2009, at 17:33:38
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by bulldog2 on November 3, 2009, at 11:23:58
>Saw one study where cows were fed sjw in their >feed. They developed developed cataracts over >the period of one year and also horrible skin >burns. The hypericin makes the skin very sun >sensitive and can easily cause eye damage and >skin damage.
Yeah, I don't know if I buy that study. The first thing is dose - just how much were the cows fed? I have read other animal studies refuting the notion that SJW could cause significant photosensitivity in clinical doses.
>This is beyond anecdotal at this point. I also >developed severe cataracts the summer I used sjw.
Yeah, I just did a google search and certainly didn't come across anything I would consider conclusive. Lamotrigine and seroquel have been linked to possible cateract development too. But again, these are animal toxicological studies where they are fed many hundreds times the upper human limit.
>This is a little more serious than grapefruit >juice. The fact that the fda hasn't gotten to it >is not a reason to feel warm and fuzzy.
Actually, I don't think it is more serious than grapefruit juice personally. Grapefruit juice can significantly alter the metabolism of many medications.
In germany SJW is (or was) the most prescribed antidepressant - and had far fewer adverse drug reports than the next leadning SSRI's.
There are adverse reactions to many herbal products and if you just do a google search you can find something on pretty any herb.
In the grand scheme though I don't think there is any great risk to the population at large.
What medications were you taking with SJW? SJW should never be taken with other antidepressants, or stimulants. I think that is asking for serotoning syndrome.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 3, 2009, at 17:35:33
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by bulldog2 on November 3, 2009, at 11:23:58
So if you had this big "adverse reaction" to SJW, why are we only hearing about it now - a year later?
Were you taking other medications at the time?
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 3, 2009, at 17:37:11
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort » TenMan, posted by SLS on November 3, 2009, at 12:09:59
SLS, I think that was the study where SJW was compared to zoloft and placebo. Both zoloft and SJW were less effective than the placebo and zoloft was less effective than SJW.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 3, 2009, at 17:39:28
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort » TenMan, posted by metafunj on November 3, 2009, at 14:53:17
You get sun burns from the sun. Just because somebody got a sunburn while taking SJW does not prove that SJW was responsible.
The whole increased photosensitivity thing is pretty much theoretical IMHO. I don't know of any study which proves increased photosensitivity while taking SJW at clinical doses.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 3, 2009, at 17:43:10
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by bulldog2 on November 3, 2009, at 15:09:46
http://www.sjwinfo.org/sideeffects.php
Some of the side effects posted here are theoretical. None of them are new - or really serious for the lay person. Again, I think there is increased risk for those taking other medications - hence the recomendation to talk to a doctor before starting if you have other health problems.Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 3, 2009, at 17:44:53
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort » TenMan, posted by bulldog2 on November 3, 2009, at 15:27:26
The above study was a meta-analysis. It is pooling together the results from several studies of SJW. Hence, there is no mention of the dose used.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 3, 2009, at 17:47:53
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort » TenMan, posted by SLS on November 3, 2009, at 17:19:38
>My current belief is that the efficacy of SJW is >often exaggerated.
It just depends who you talk to. The efficacy of SSRI's could be seen as exaggerated too. In terms of mild-moderate depression, I think there is enough evidence to say that SJW can be effective.
For severe depression, I think that:
a) there is a lack of data
b) there is a hesitancy to recomend anything that is OTC as severely depressed individuals should be under a doctors care.
Linkadge
Posted by bleauberry on November 3, 2009, at 18:52:05
In reply to You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by bulldog2 on November 2, 2009, at 18:55:47
> DO NOT ever take St. John's Wort IT IS DANGEROUSANY substance that impacts the nervous system carries risk and danger. If you read the fine print of the potential horrible side effects (I call them direct effects) of SSRIs, SNRIs, anticonvulsants, and antipsychotics, I think you'll see any risk of SJW is miniscule in comparison.
What happened with you is undeniable. But was it really the SJW, or something else?
Cherrypicking one or several studies to form an opinion on anything is worthless. One needs to study every possible one they can find, and then visit the forums that discuss those things, and google a ton of searches. One must have a very well rounded picture to know the whole scoop. If you had done that with SJW, you would have seen at sjwinfo.org that maybe 1 in 100 in the archives did have some kind of bizarre side neurological side effect. It doesn't mean SJW is dangerous. It does mean it has power. You would have also seen that with people like us a pbabble, SJW has been a miracle for people who have been on dozens of psych meds. You would have seen everything you see here...it worked fast, it worked slow, it worked sort-of, it worked great, it didn't work, it pooped out, it had side effects...all of it.
Germany is a world leader is herbal medicine and they have an organization similar to our FDA who's expertise and focus is herbs. SJW happens to be a prescription medication and is prescribed far more often than Prozac. That would not be happening if it was dangerous or if it didn't work. Simple as that.
Back to you. What happened? Two things came to mind, both of which most people are not aware of.
SJW is a potent antimicrobial against many bacteria, viruses, and fungi. When we kill a bunch of those things too fast, we experience a flood of their dying toxins and debris that basically poisons our nerves. It is called a Herxheimer reaction. A serious Herx can do nervous system damage. It isn't the anitmicrobial's fault, it is the fault of going too far too fast. Too high of a starting dose. Incorrect diagnosis.
If you have hidden infectious agents (gee, hmmm ever consider maybe, just maybe, that might be where the psych symptoms are coming from?), SJW can induce a serious die-off effect.
With any med or herb, I feel it is wise to start at ridiculously low doses...75mg SJW, 2.5mg Lexapro, 12.5mg Zoloft, etc. These meds and herbs are indeed powerful, and there is much we don't know about them, despite we liking to think we are experts on them, we aren't. We are all living experiments at the hands of the pharm companies.
Another thing SJW tends to do is lower the cortisol response. If you have hypoadrenalism, or low cortisol, SJW is probably going to worsen that, at least in the short term. If your psych symptoms are due to low cortisol (do not underestimate the power of cortisol on your neurotransmitters), SJW can potentially make you feel a lot worse real fast.
SJW was my first AD many years ago and was a miracle. Actually, nothing ever worked as good. I've been on every drug, none were as good or as fast. It's only side effect for me was light sleep.
Now is different. It makes me really depressed really fast. Like I said, things are different. Now I have documented low cortisol, and now I have documented infectious pathogens. No wonder SJW is rough on me. It would probably be good for me in the long run, but would require probably a year to titrate up on it, begining with perhaps a drop tincture 3 times per day, working up to full dose over a year, controlling the Herx along the way and allowing adrenals to gently heal.
If you are going to say SJW is dangerous, then you have to also say that every prescription medicine and every other herb is also dangerous. Because they are. They are all quite potent.
How about someone with Celiac disease who doesn't know they have it. Guess what is really dangerous to them? Pizza. Tuna sandwich. Big Mac. Pretzels.
I am very sorry you had a bad reaction. I am just saying there is probably more going on here than you are seeing, and that SJW is not the one to point the finger at.
>
Posted by willyeee on November 4, 2009, at 4:30:32
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by bleauberry on November 3, 2009, at 18:52:05
Youre right,actualy any substance capable of passing the blood brain barrier can be dangerous.
On the flip side,i hear you keep mentioning that it was a prescription medication in germany,i dont believe that holds much value,lets look at what is or was also prescription,
MDMA,ecstasy
L-dopa a mere amino acid
samE now otc and avaiable to everyone
kava kava as the trade name KAVAINTryptohan
i can go on and on,im glad st johnns wort is helping u,but for the most part,using personal experiance,and tons and tons of readgings of message groups,st johns wort is not considered a very effective treatment for depression,in fact 5 htp is touted much more effective and im not saying that is highly mentioned either.
Im disappointed to see your recent strong view on what seems to be natural over medication,i did the natural route,learned every herb/nutrient/amino acid there is for depression,and all i got was a lot of money wasted.
When u take a natural supplement at mega doses it no longer is natural.When u mess with balance of amino acids,that is not a safe practice either.
Herbs cross the blood brain barrier,making them no different the drugs,and that includes the risks also.
It saddens me cause i used to love and respect your views when reading ur posts.
Posted by Netch on November 4, 2009, at 8:09:31
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by willyeee on November 4, 2009, at 4:30:32
I've given up on SJW. It pooped out.
When I retry it, it just causes agitation, irritability and skin rash./Netch
Posted by TenMan on November 4, 2009, at 9:13:04
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by Netch on November 4, 2009, at 8:09:31
It is not surprising that a board of treatment resistant individuals would not think highly of SJW.
What is surprising though, is that those individuals would lose all respect for those who do, or worse, wish to restrict its use to those people!
In a profession that is more art than science, having the most available options to use is a blessing. Drugs like tianeptine, reboxetine, agomelatine or amineptine are effective antidepressants for some, while others recieve no benefit at all. But wouldn't we all want them available here to at least try? And for goodness sakes if someone achieves a remission shouldn't we be happy for them and hope that others could also find that same response?!
Posted by bulldog2 on November 4, 2009, at 12:54:31
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by TenMan on November 4, 2009, at 9:13:04
> It is not surprising that a board of treatment resistant individuals would not think highly of SJW.
>
> What is surprising though, is that those individuals would lose all respect for those who do, or worse, wish to restrict its use to those people!
>
> In a profession that is more art than science, having the most available options to use is a blessing. Drugs like tianeptine, reboxetine, agomelatine or amineptine are effective antidepressants for some, while others recieve no benefit at all. But wouldn't we all want them available here to at least try? And for goodness sakes if someone achieves a remission shouldn't we be happy for them and hope that others could also find that same response?!
>
>I did not say the herb had no promise. I just believe this is basically a pharm med sitting on our shelves. I see so many different strengths and formulations that I am appalled. We need to remove this herb from the supplement shelves and have pharma companies conduct research on this herb. Find out what works and see if the part of the herb that works can be separated from the other parts that may be responsible from the most serious sides. Perhaps we will end up with a pharm med that is superior to just the herb and without the parts that cause cataracts and serious burns. So we will have a med that has gone thru research,testing a precise formualtion. Doctors will dispense it when appropraiate that it is compatible with your meds. Also warning about cataracts when necessary. SJW may give us a the ingrediants to build a very good ad!
Posted by TenMan on November 4, 2009, at 13:32:12
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by bulldog2 on November 4, 2009, at 12:54:31
> > It is not surprising that a board of treatment resistant individuals would not think highly of SJW.
> >
> > What is surprising though, is that those individuals would lose all respect for those who do, or worse, wish to restrict its use to those people!
> >
> > In a profession that is more art than science, having the most available options to use is a blessing. Drugs like tianeptine, reboxetine, agomelatine or amineptine are effective antidepressants for some, while others recieve no benefit at all. But wouldn't we all want them available here to at least try? And for goodness sakes if someone achieves a remission shouldn't we be happy for them and hope that others could also find that same response?!
> >
> >
>
> I did not say the herb had no promise. I just believe this is basically a pharm med sitting on our shelves. I see so many different strengths and formulations that I am appalled. We need to remove this herb from the supplement shelves and have pharma companies conduct research on this herb. Find out what works and see if the part of the herb that works can be separated from the other parts that may be responsible from the most serious sides. Perhaps we will end up with a pharm med that is superior to just the herb and without the parts that cause cataracts and serious burns. So we will have a med that has gone thru research,testing a precise formualtion. Doctors will dispense it when appropraiate that it is compatible with your meds. Also warning about cataracts when necessary. SJW may give us a the ingrediants to build a very good ad!
The problem is that the our patent system is set up and the hurdles that must be jumped to get FDA approval would prevent a pharm company from ever trying to get FDA approval on SJW. As long as you cannot patent a naturally occurring compound there is no incentive to spend 10's of millions of dollars to get approval. Until that system changes it either is allowed to remain over the counter where it can help those who are helped by it, or, it is removed from the market altogether.Interestingly enough, pharmaceutical companies are working on synthetic derivatives to hyperforin, one of the principle ingredients in SJW. How funny, here we have an effective substance at our disposal, cheap and over the counter, but it would be better if a synthetic derivative were created and sold for a much higher price all in the name of regulation and profit. That strikes me as so backwards. It amazes me how some people would rather be taken care of than learn to take care of themselves. Feed yourself.
If you had done any research whatsoever you would know that there are currently hyperforin only brands on the market which do not contain or contain very little hypericin.
Finally, St. John's Wort, in the therapeutic doses taken by humans, does not cause cataracts or severe burns. I asked you kindly yesterday to provide actual evidence, not anecdote, to your continued assertion that is does. but you did not. Yet, you still make the claim. I wonder why that is?
Posted by bulldog2 on November 4, 2009, at 14:33:04
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by TenMan on November 4, 2009, at 13:32:12
> > > It is not surprising that a board of treatment resistant individuals would not think highly of SJW.
> > >
> > > What is surprising though, is that those individuals would lose all respect for those who do, or worse, wish to restrict its use to those people!
> > >
> > > In a profession that is more art than science, having the most available options to use is a blessing. Drugs like tianeptine, reboxetine, agomelatine or amineptine are effective antidepressants for some, while others recieve no benefit at all. But wouldn't we all want them available here to at least try? And for goodness sakes if someone achieves a remission shouldn't we be happy for them and hope that others could also find that same response?!
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I did not say the herb had no promise. I just believe this is basically a pharm med sitting on our shelves. I see so many different strengths and formulations that I am appalled. We need to remove this herb from the supplement shelves and have pharma companies conduct research on this herb. Find out what works and see if the part of the herb that works can be separated from the other parts that may be responsible from the most serious sides. Perhaps we will end up with a pharm med that is superior to just the herb and without the parts that cause cataracts and serious burns. So we will have a med that has gone thru research,testing a precise formualtion. Doctors will dispense it when appropraiate that it is compatible with your meds. Also warning about cataracts when necessary. SJW may give us a the ingrediants to build a very good ad!
>
>
> The problem is that the our patent system is set up and the hurdles that must be jumped to get FDA approval would prevent a pharm company from ever trying to get FDA approval on SJW. As long as you cannot patent a naturally occurring compound there is no incentive to spend 10's of millions of dollars to get approval. Until that system changes it either is allowed to remain over the counter where it can help those who are helped by it, or, it is removed from the market altogether.
>
> Interestingly enough, pharmaceutical companies are working on synthetic derivatives to hyperforin, one of the principle ingredients in SJW. How funny, here we have an effective substance at our disposal, cheap and over the counter, but it would be better if a synthetic derivative were created and sold for a much higher price all in the name of regulation and profit. That strikes me as so backwards. It amazes me how some people would rather be taken care of than learn to take care of themselves. Feed yourself.
>
> If you had done any research whatsoever you would know that there are currently hyperforin only brands on the market which do not contain or contain very little hypericin.
>
> Finally, St. John's Wort, in the therapeutic doses taken by humans, does not cause cataracts or severe burns. I asked you kindly yesterday to provide actual evidence, not anecdote, to your continued assertion that is does. but you did not. Yet, you still make the claim. I wonder why that is?
>
>Can the hyperforin be be extracted (totally free of other ingrediants) and marketed by a pharm company? Hyperforin appears to be the active ingrediant. That way I know exactly what I'm taking. I thought other pharm meds were extracts.
The reality is that at times we don't even know what is in that capsules that says its sjw. Very unregulated system.
As for the cataracts and burns. I've been reading about sjw for about 15 years. It is not easy to locate old online articles.
The cattle were browsing in a field where sjw was growing. There were some severe sides. This was not a study. This was something noted by whomever owned the cattle.
Actually would love to try one of the newer high hyperforin products. There's sc27 by new chapter.But!
1. I now have cataracts
2. I take thyroid (synthroid) blood pressure meds and othersI know you're not convinced these sides are valid.But any reasonable person with cataracts that takes pharm meds would be prudent and pass on the sjw.
Posted by linkadge on November 4, 2009, at 17:00:20
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by Netch on November 4, 2009, at 8:09:31
>I've given up on SJW. It pooped out.
>When I retry it, it just causes agitation, >irritability and skin rash.I could say the same thing for a dozen or so AD's. Minus the skin rash thing.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 4, 2009, at 17:04:20
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort » TenMan, posted by bulldog2 on November 4, 2009, at 14:33:04
>The cattle were browsing in a field where sjw >was growing.
I heard that story only the reverse conclusion. I read an article which stated that no adverse effects had been observed in the cattle that graze about and feed on the SJW plant daily for years.
Linkadge
Posted by Sigismund on November 4, 2009, at 17:28:53
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by bulldog2 on November 4, 2009, at 12:54:31
I liked William Burroughs's idea that psych texts should be pulped and psychiatrists turned into veterinarians, but hey, that's just me.
Posted by Sigismund on November 4, 2009, at 17:36:06
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by linkadge on November 4, 2009, at 17:04:20
In places where the light is stronger there is a photosensitivity reaction to it.
I also found this in a book on poisonous plants>New Zealand workers have noticed that affected sheep whilst in an active stage of photosensitization due to the plant, react violently to contact with cold water. As soon as their forefeet enter the water, they rear on their hind legs and make convulsive movements. A light knock on the head or ear will trigger off similar convulsive movements.
Posted by bleauberry on November 4, 2009, at 17:48:16
In reply to Re: You Must Use Caution With St. Johns Wort, posted by willyeee on November 4, 2009, at 4:30:32
> Youre right,actualy any substance capable of passing the blood brain barrier can be dangerous.
>
> On the flip side,i hear you keep mentioning that it was a prescription medication in germany,i dont believe that holds much value,lets look at what is or was also prescription,
>
>
> MDMA,ecstasy
> L-dopa a mere amino acid
> samE now otc and avaiable to everyone
> kava kava as the trade name KAVAIN
>
> Tryptohan
>They are prescription because they are studied, controlled, and each pill/batch is exactly the same as the next...unlike in USA where you never know what you are going to get from one brand to another, one bottle to another.
You mentioned "a mere amino acid". Even that is flawed. I can show you posts of people who tried ABC brand of tyrosine, DEF brand of tyrosine, both felt aweful, and then tried XYZ brand which felt great. On retrials of the original ones, just to test, they were indeed crap the second and third time around, and XYZ consistently was great each time. Even with mere amino acids, you don't know for sure what you are getting...kind of like a cousin situation to the brand vs generic thing. Not only are many generics found to have different feel and efficacy compared to brand, but the generics amongst themselves can be distinctly different. We see that here all the time. Same with OTC products.
Germany has more of an exact science in their plant pharmacology, with lots of research and study, which requires exact formulas, which requires prescription. My point however was that, given a choice between SJW or SSRI, they choose SJW 6 times more freqently. That would not be happening if it wasn't providing results.
> i can go on and on,im glad st johnns wort is helping u,but for the most part,using personal experiance,and tons and tons of readgings of message groups,st johns wort is not considered a very effective treatment for depression,in fact 5 htp is touted much more effective and im not saying that is highly mentioned either.
>
> Im disappointed to see your recent strong view on what seems to be natural over medication,i did the natural route,learned every herb/nutrient/amino acid there is for depression,and all i got was a lot of money wasted.That just tells me your depression is not due to low serotonin, norepinephrine, or dopamine. Something else. I am very sorry your efforts were fruitless. I think that can happen because people are not well schooled on which agents to choose, why to choose them, how to combine them, why to combine them, and how critical the brand choices and dosing strategies are. It's not as simple as just popping a few supplement pills for a few days to see what happens and then move on to a different one.
>
>
> When u take a natural supplement at mega doses it no longer is natural.That is true. The thing is, of the people I have talked to who experience remission on natural agents, none of them take anything close to mega doses. One guy for example...130mg tyrosine divided up into 5 little doses throughout the day. I do not believe in megadoses of anything.
>
> When u mess with balance of amino acids,that is not a safe practice either.But messing with all the unknowns of powerful artificial chemicals is? You do realize, for every bit of information that we know about a drug, there is 10X that much we don't know. Back to your original statement however, messing with amino acids I believe carries a far lower risk than anything else. You can even do that with food choices...heavy protein vs heavy carbs, etc.
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> Herbs cross the blood brain barrier,making them no different the drugs,and that includes the risks also.True. I think I already said that. Anything that impacts the nervous system carries risk.
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> It saddens me cause i used to love and respect your views when reading ur posts.It saddens me you feel that way. What I see too often is what I also see in this post...someone who is struggling for an answer, a new avenue, an idea...and yet if it is anything outside of the psychiatric toolbox, forget it. Why someone would limit their potentials for life enhancement is beyond me. But that's ok, we all have our own lives to be responsible for. I personally prefer a large toolbox with lots of tricks in it, only some of which are from the psychiatric menu.
I have been 100% pro meds at times. That's when people at pbabble like my posts the most...because it fit the mindframe they were in...meds, meds, meds, and nothing but meds.
I have also been 100% natural at times. But over time I have concluded that neither approach is perfect, both have flaws, both are purely experimental, and the best results are witnessed by combining strategies of both med and natural. (the word natural includes herbs, supplements, tailored exercise, tailored food choices, anti-microbial strategies, and anti-toxin strategies). We're not simply talking tryptophan or SJW. A sick mind/sick body needs a whole lot more than any single pharm drug or herb is going to provide. They are sick for a reason, and it probably aint as simple as a chemical imbalance. Several bases need to be covered simultaneously in concert and compliment with each other.
For example, someone on a psych med with a specific diet and a specific exercise routine and a few specialty supplements and anti-microbial anti-toxin strategies is going to be in a whole lot better condition than someone on cocktail list of psych meds and nothing else.
So when you see me talking natural stuff or defending natural stuff, please don't misunderstand me. I am pro-med and pro-natural and pro-healthy, all at the same time. Neither one of those by themselves is going to get anyone very far for very long, except a very few who happen to hit a jackpot for whatever unknown reason. That does happen, but very infrequently, yet most of us think we are in line to hit the next lucky jackpot. We aren't. We keep trying one drug after another as if we are sure the next one is the jackpot. Ten years goes by. Twenty years.
It takes work to bring a sick mind/sick body back to health. I do not believe natural alone will do that. I do not believe pharm alone will do that.
But overall I did want to defend SJW, and reiterate I think the profound reaction to SJW highlighted a serious hidden problem that SJW did not cause, but rather uncovered and exposed.
That can be taken as a powerful glaring hint, or it can be outright ignored. We all have our own choices and prices.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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