Shown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on October 24, 2002, at 11:24:07
As I'm getting rather confused. I'm not sure I adequately conveyed my feelings on the subject of the faith board, nor am I even totally sure what they are. I think I am trying to say the same thing Nikki said.
I do, however want to reiterate my belief that Dr. Bob is not biased for or against any particular belief structure. And that I've never quite understood how the faith board fits into Babble, given the overall purpose of the site. The very nature of faith is that if you believe in one thing (including agnosticism or atheism) that you don't believe in other things. Of course that is also true of politics, etc. And I think with the faith board, Dr. Bob is balancing precariously, trying to achieve more than one goal, and probably doomed to have trouble with it.
Oh, I'm confusing myself again.
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 24, 2002, at 12:15:36
In reply to I bow rather gracelessly out...., posted by Dinah on October 24, 2002, at 11:24:07
Dinah,
You wrote that the nature of a faith is that if you beleive in one thing that you do not believe in an other things.
I hope you might consider, then, that I am not being disrespectfull to others because I am a jew and do not "beleve in another thing".
I am not going to accept that accusation to me that I am being disrespectfull to others for writing that I had an experiance and was told by the Rider, who is the Word of God in my experiance, that I should (shall) have no other Gods before my God when a faith board is constructed to allow the participants to tell of their faith. In Christianity, their Word of God, the bible, tells them that Christians (must) (shall) (should) believe in Christ, which is the foundation of Christiandom to be a christian. Christians are not being restrained from posting their foundational belief here, and they are not saying that others must beleve their Word of God and I am not saying that others must beleive my Word of God. But I am being restraind from telliing of the foundation of Judaism here.
Sorry, but this could be construed by reasonable people that Christianity can be posted unrestrained, and Jewdaism will be restrained in relation to telling of Jewdaisms foundational belief of haveing one God and that Jews shall (should) not have any other Gods before Him.
I am in absolutly no way saying that anyone here (must) (shall) (should) be a Jew like me anymore than you or anyone else here is saying that I have to be a Christian because... God sent his only Son for us...and other quotes by Christians on this board such as ....the father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost... etc. etc. and because I am a jew, that does not mean that I disrespect Christians or athiests, or Hindus, or Islamic peoples or anybody else. If a athiest wanted to tell of their foundationl belefes to be an athiest here, that would be welcomed by me. If the Christian people here want to tell of Christ, that would be welcomed by me. If an Islamic person wanted to tell of their faith about Mulhammad, that would be welcomed by me. I accept others faiths and I am asking others not to tell me that I am being disrespectfull because I am jewish and theafror of another faoththan them. Mt faith does not disrespect others anymore than Christians faith disrespects mine. (and it doesn't)
The foundational beliefs of freedom of religion of England, Cananda and The United states of America say what you saud, Dinah, that if you have a faith, then that means you have your faith and not another. And these countrys and others that have freedom of religion state that we are to accept that people of one faith are not being disrespectfull to others because if the line of reasoning that any faith tharfore is disrespectfull to others was accepted, then there wouild only be one faith for a country, or no faith. There are countrys that do not accept individual faiths and countrys in the past . Spain in 1492 expelled all jews from Spainish lands by the edict of Queen Isabella and I posted Queen Isabella's edict prevoiusly to expose the horror of it. I read that in some countrys that believing in a religion other than their states religion is punishable by death. I do not live in that country, I live in the United States of America where people have a right to be a jew, or a christian, or an Islamic person or an athiest or anything elsa without someone putting an onus on me that because I am a jew I am disrespectfull to others. I do not want that to happen anywhare where I live, even here, and I will not accept anyone telling me as a citizen of the United States of America that my Jewish beliefs disrespect anyone.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 24, 2002, at 12:53:57
In reply to Re: I bow rather gracelessly out.... » Dinah, posted by Lou Pilder on October 24, 2002, at 12:15:36
Friends,
I stated that I am not going to allow others to accuse me of disrespeting others on the grounds that if I post the foundation of my jewdaism's faith ( that I shall have no other Gods before my God)I would be subjected to that accusation.
I am in communication Chicago University about this and I want to disclose that I am going to pursue this to its logical conclusion for I do not believe that you shed your constitutionl rights when you key in through an internet board's doors or anywhere else.
Now if Chicago University says that I loose my Constitutional rights when I post here, then so be it. But that has not been determined as of yet Also, Chicago University can say that Dr. Bob has the right to deny me my constitutionl rights. If that is what Chicago University wants, then so be it.
But the point here is that there is disagreement and I am asking Chicago University to step in to either, I guess,requierer me to accept the accusation that I will be deemed on this board to be disrespectfull of others when I post the post in discussion, or to state that our constitutionl rights will be respected on this board. And they told me yesterday that they would grant me a hearing on the phone with someone that has authoruty over Dr. Bob and I am awaiting his/her call. I will exercise my due- process rights as a citizen of the United states and I consider it my priviledge to do so if I do not get satisfaction to be treated equally here in respect to me being threatened with the accusation that I will be disrespectfull if I post the foundational belief of Judaism on this board where Christians are not restrained from posting their foundational beliefs.
Posted by tina on October 24, 2002, at 13:38:09
In reply to What I am doing to not allow others to accuse me » Lou Pilder, posted by Lou Pilder on October 24, 2002, at 12:53:57
You are leaning on the constitution of the United States... You must remember that this is an international site, accessible by anyone with a computer regardless of their country of origin. Non-americans are not bound by the United States Constitution therefore, this site may not be either.
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 24, 2002, at 13:49:43
In reply to Re: Don't forget something here Lou, posted by tina on October 24, 2002, at 13:38:09
Tina,
Thank you for joining this discussion.
It is my position here that I am a citizen of the United States and that I do not shed my constitutional rights when I walk through the doors of Chicago University's forum. I think I have some understanding of what you posted, but not fully. Could you clarify if you are saying that because there may be someone on the board from a country that does not have the freedom of religion afforded to me by being a citizen of the Unithed States that then , because that person exists, I thearfore loose my freedom because they do not have it , or do mean something else and could you clarify that for me so that I can communicate with you better on this topic that you have introduced?
Best Regards,
Lou
Posted by NikkiT2 on October 24, 2002, at 13:51:04
In reply to Re: Don't forget something here Lou, posted by tina on October 24, 2002, at 13:38:09
Lou, how many times does this have to be said.
no one is attacking you as a jew, no one is attacking your beliefs, and no one is being anti-semetic.
We just don't agree with your wording when you make out that we are fools etc for not sharing your beliefs, which you have done.
It is when you say "you SHOULD do xyz" that people are taking offense. I also believe that this is what Dr Bob was objecting to.
taking legal action, or any action, against Dr Bob could lead to the closure of this whole site, and then where would the rest of us go for the information and support we really need? Please try to think of tghe rest of us during this time.
Nikki
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 24, 2002, at 14:01:55
In reply to Re: Don't forget something here Lou » tina, posted by NikkiT2 on October 24, 2002, at 13:51:04
NikkiT2,
Sorry, but the issue with the post that you were concerned about is not the subject in my complaint to Chicago University. My complaint is that I am threatened with the accusation from the administration of this site that I will be disrespectfull to others if I post that I was told in my faith that I shall not have any Gods other than my God.
It is me that is being told that, because I am a jew, not others. I never wrote that others had to believe in my God. The Christian people here have never said that I have to beleive in their Jesus. But the core of this disagreement is that the Christian people can post their foundational beliefe in Jesus without the threat of being accused of being disrespectfull of others, but me, as a jew, can not post my foundation belief witout the threat that I will be accused of disrespecting others.
Now if Chicago University allows Dr. Bob to go through with accusing me of disrespecting others, when I post the post in question, then my argument will be with Chicago University , not with Dr. Bob
Lou
Posted by tina on October 24, 2002, at 14:02:25
In reply to Re: Don't forget something here Lou » tina, posted by Lou Pilder on October 24, 2002, at 13:49:43
I am saying that you are lodging your complaint based on the constitution of ONE country of the world. This forum is available to many countries that aren't covered by the US constitution. They may have similar documents but not the "US" constitution so the internet is not subject to any ONE country's civil liberties. Also, you have not been prohibited from sharing your beliefs. You have simply been asked to do it in a more civil manner eg. WITHOUT the word "fools". I don't understand why you can't see that.
Posted by Dinah on October 24, 2002, at 14:03:14
In reply to Re: Don't forget something here Lou » tina, posted by Lou Pilder on October 24, 2002, at 13:49:43
Lou, this is not the forum of the University of Chicago. It is the forum of Dr. Bob.
You are of course free to do as you wish, or as your conscience dictates.
But I feel sad. I like and respect Dr. Bob, and am sorry if my input in this thread added even in a small way to his troubles.
I will say no more on this subject.
Dinah
Posted by IsoM on October 24, 2002, at 14:07:12
In reply to Re: Don't forget something here Lou » tina, posted by Lou Pilder on October 24, 2002, at 13:49:43
Yes, Lou, you DO shed your average American rights on the internet. It's an international site & just because someone's American, British, Polish, Russian, or WHATEVER, it's not something that can be monitored like a tangible, physical country. The internet is a virtual community - there are very few guidelines & there's no way to properly police the internet.
So what it boils down to is ultimately the person who's set up the site, polices it. That person is then answerable to the server that hosts the site. In this case, it's Bob's university. But then that university is answerable to the state & country that it's in. But the individual posters are NOT liable to the state or country where the server is.
It's VERY difficult to make laws that can actually have teeth to them concerning the internet. It's a major concern of many countries of what can & cannot be put on the net. Check it out. Read over the articles written about this.
Posted by NikkiT2 on October 24, 2002, at 14:11:34
In reply to Re: Don't forget something here Lou » NikkiT2, posted by Lou Pilder on October 24, 2002, at 14:01:55
Lou,
Shall means roughly the same as should...
Please try to realise this has nothing to do with you being a jew.
How would you feel if I said "My husband said to me "All people who believe in god are fools""
I just hope your misunderstanding doesn't affect the rest of us as I fear it will.
Nikki
Posted by NikkiT2 on October 24, 2002, at 14:12:30
In reply to Re: Don't forget something here Lou, posted by tina on October 24, 2002, at 14:02:25
Actually Tina... the laws cover the country where the server is held... if it is based in the US it is covered by US law, in the UK it is ocvered by UK law.
Does that make sense?
Nikki
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 24, 2002, at 14:12:38
In reply to Re: Don't forget something here Lou » Lou Pilder, posted by Dinah on October 24, 2002, at 14:03:14
Dinah,
I have been told differently as to whose site this is. It is my understanding that it is the site of Chicago University, for if it was not, then why would they contact me and agree to give me a hearing on the phone?. They could have just said that they are not responsible for Dr. Bob and that would be the end of it. If that is the case, I wish that they would have so that I would not be wasting my time talking with them.
The fact that you like Dr. Bob is not relavant to my disagreement here, and I like Dr. Bob also. This is not an issue of personalities, but one of clarification and disagreement. And I believe that reasonable people can disagree without loosing their admiration for anyone.
Lou
Posted by oracle on October 24, 2002, at 16:20:49
In reply to Re: Don't forget something here Lou » Dinah, posted by Lou Pilder on October 24, 2002, at 14:12:38
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 25, 2002, at 0:32:52
In reply to Re: I bow rather gracelessly out.... » Dinah, posted by Lou Pilder on October 24, 2002, at 12:15:36
> In Christianity, their Word of God, the bible, tells them that Christians (must) (shall) (should) believe in Christ...
This board is for administrative issues. Posts on other topics may be deleted...
Bob
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 25, 2002, at 7:33:13
In reply to Re: let's keep it administrative here, posted by Dr. Bob on October 25, 2002, at 0:32:52
Dr. Bob,
Could youu clarify what you are implying here when you say, [lets keep it administatrative here?]
You then post a sentence that was in the context of the discussion. Could you tell me why you are highlighting that particular sentence. If you could, then I could have a better understanding of what you mean and can accomodate your definition of what is, or is not, administative. Also,is there any threat to block people here by you if you deem that what they posted was [not] administative, or are you just going to delete it?
Lou Pilder
This is the end of the thread.
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