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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 34. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 19, 2003, at 9:21:30
Hi, everyone,
My Institutional Review Board and I have agreed that Psycho-Babble will no longer be considered a research study, since no specific formal research protocols are currently active.
I may still have the option of publishing case studies, which are generally not considered research ("a systematic investigation ... designed to develop or contribute to generalizable knowledge"). And I may in the future add specific formal research protocols, but they would of course include informed consent.
I've updated the FAQ and the registration system. I like the idea of confirming someone's understanding of what's involved, though, so I've kept the quiz.
Bob
Posted by Dinah on April 19, 2003, at 9:25:43
In reply to Psycho-Babble no longer considered research, posted by Dr. Bob on April 19, 2003, at 9:21:30
Maybe that will stop everyone from using that nasty and totally untrue accusation against you.
You are a dear, Dr. Bob.
Posted by NikkiT2 on April 19, 2003, at 11:53:15
In reply to Psycho-Babble no longer considered research, posted by Dr. Bob on April 19, 2003, at 9:21:30
Thats a shame Dr Bob.. I hope that it wasn't the vocal negative people here that have pushed this decision.
Seems you're doing this for us, with nothing in it for you now.
I hope people now appreciate this even more.
Nikki
Posted by Oddipus Rex on April 19, 2003, at 12:32:14
In reply to Psycho-Babble no longer considered research, posted by Dr. Bob on April 19, 2003, at 9:21:30
So if you wanted to write an article like the first one is the Review Board saying that you can't or is it saying that you really didn't need informed consent for something like that after all? What brought all this about?
> I may still have the option of publishingWho's going to determine if you have that option? Would you need to get any additional permission from the subject of the case studies or would the old permissions be enough?
Well, I'm a bit disheartened. While others may have considered themselves lab rats I of course always considered myself a fellow researcher as well as a subject ;).
Best wishes
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 19, 2003, at 13:27:07
In reply to Re: Psycho-Babble no longer considered research » Dr. Bob, posted by Oddipus Rex on April 19, 2003, at 12:32:14
> So if you wanted to write an article like the first one is the Review Board saying that you can't or is it saying that you really didn't need informed consent for something like that after all?
>
> > I may still have the option of publishing
>
> Who's going to determine if you have that option? Would you need to get any additional permission from the subject of the case studies or would the old permissions be enough?The IRB determines what's considered research. If a case study isn't considered research, then I think the existing permissions would be enough.
Bob
Posted by shar on April 19, 2003, at 13:45:32
In reply to Re: Psycho-Babble no longer considered research, posted by Dr. Bob on April 19, 2003, at 13:27:07
So...are you still interested in keeping the boards going? I'd hate to see the Babbles go away, though I know there are others who would be most delighted.
I've learned so much here, and still do, and have gotten through some extra-hard times (lonnnnggg times) via the support of the many...this place will always be a valuable part of my 'support system.' Well, as long as it lasts; after that, I'll have my memories.
Will you be getting enough from donations so you don't have to take a financial hit to keep it going?
Shar
Posted by Janelle on April 19, 2003, at 13:59:03
In reply to Psycho-Babble no longer considered research, posted by Dr. Bob on April 19, 2003, at 9:21:30
Posted by stjames on April 19, 2003, at 15:28:24
In reply to Psycho-Babble no longer considered research, posted by Dr. Bob on April 19, 2003, at 9:21:30
> I may still have the option of publishing case studies, which are generally not considered research ("a systematic investigation ... designed to develop or contribute to generalizable knowledge").
It seems to me that what you published in the past
(about PB) falls under "case studies", correct ?
I like the idea of confirming someone's understanding of what's involved, though, so I've kept the quiz.
>
> Bob
Good idea.
Posted by noa on April 20, 2003, at 2:26:33
In reply to Re: Psycho-Babble no longer considered research, posted by stjames on April 19, 2003, at 15:28:24
James, I was thinking along similar lines.....the article I read ("The Best of Both Worlds") sure seemed more like a case study than a research article.
I haven't looked at other articles or at the book.
Posted by Fi on April 20, 2003, at 11:09:17
In reply to Re: Psycho-Babble no longer considered research » Dr. Bob, posted by shar on April 19, 2003, at 13:45:32
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 21, 2003, at 6:36:29
In reply to Re: Psycho-Babble no longer considered research » Dr. Bob, posted by shar on April 19, 2003, at 13:45:32
> So...are you still interested in keeping the boards going?
Of course I'm still interested!
> Will you be getting enough from donations so you don't have to take a financial hit to keep it going?
I've really appreciated the donations, but as some of you may remember, I've also wondered about a membership fee...
Bob
Posted by Dinah on April 21, 2003, at 8:25:52
In reply to Re: financial hit, posted by Dr. Bob on April 21, 2003, at 6:36:29
I'm sure you've already thought of the pros and cons of that, so nothing I could say would be news to you.
I would miss the posters I wouldn't get to know, or those who would leave at the prospect of losing their anonymity. A lot of people who come here with one question in mind probably wouldn't ask it, and the same with people who are in distress. Heck, I don't think I would have posted had there been a fee. I would have suspected some sort of evil doings.
The pros are also obvious. The reduced cost to you is one. And some other problems you've had could also be sharply cut down with a registration fee.
Maybe you should have a donation drive again. I know I've gotten lax. :(
Posted by wendy b. on April 21, 2003, at 8:49:54
In reply to Re: financial hit, posted by Dr. Bob on April 21, 2003, at 6:36:29
> I've really appreciated the donations, but as some of you may remember, I've also wondered about a membership fee...
>
> Bob
Bob,I think this would be fair; you are providing a service that is helpful to many.
What are you thinking - ballpark number now - in terms of a fee?
Or should we discuss what we think would be fair? I don't have anything to compare with the kind of service this is, except maybe group therapy, and that was $10 a week. Probably too much to ask of people here, but I believe Babble is at least as helpful to some people as one session a week of group therapy.
However, if you "sell" it as that, there is some sort of liability issue for you, I'm sure, because you are not the traditional "therapist" or group leader, in that you do not get involved in dispensing advice. So it's a unique situation...
Just some thoughts,
Wendy
Posted by NikkiT2 on April 21, 2003, at 10:07:47
In reply to Re: financial hit » Dr. Bob, posted by wendy b. on April 21, 2003, at 8:49:54
The chat site I use charges a membership fee... but youy can still use the basic chat facility without paying.. You just get bonus stuff for paying the fee.. such as private mail rooms, ability to set up private chat rooms, and having your name in pretty colours!!!
It would be a shame if the whole site became fee based, as alot of people just searching for a quick answer would be denied this.. maybe you could have one basic board for non-fee paying, and then the rest (and maybe private messaging!) for fee payers.
Nikki
Posted by jane d on April 21, 2003, at 11:49:15
In reply to Re: financial hit, posted by Dr. Bob on April 21, 2003, at 6:36:29
> I've really appreciated the donations, but as some of you may remember, I've also wondered about a membership fee...
>
> BobBob,
Would you consider something in between? Perhaps add a little bit of coercion to the "voluntary". What if you had members but didn't require people to be members to post. You could just indicate next to the posters name at the top of the post "member". Then whenever I read a post by Phinstegg or Judy1 (the first 2 names I recognized off the list of donors) I would be reminded that I get as much from it as they do and really ought to try to scrape the money up to join. Guilt as motivation. Or, more precisely, a constant low key reminder. Plus I know I have a very positive feeling towards many of the posters here and I think seeing them labeled as members would spillover to positive feelings about membership and supporting the board in general. And I know many of those posters would be among the first to join.I don't know if this would raise enough money but it would be great if the site could be kept open to people who can't pay. I'd also hope that you could have a very low membership cost and more members instead of the other way around too.
Jane,
who needs to move this site from the "can't afford to pay" to the "can't afford not to have" category in her head. A shame those aren't always mutually exclusive.
Posted by Fi on April 21, 2003, at 15:20:16
In reply to Re: financial hit, posted by Dr. Bob on April 21, 2003, at 6:36:29
> > So...are you still interested in keeping the boards going?
>
> Of course I'm still interested!Phew, phew and double phew!!
>
I've also wondered about a membership fee...
>
> BobThis has probably been mentioned before, but an approach which might be useful would be;
- allow people to post free. I certainly wouldnt have got involved if I had to pay at first- sending my credit card details to someone I didnt know and trust in another country at a website wouldnt feel safe.
- have a policy something like 10 posts then emailed and asked to make voluntary donation, making it clear you dont have funding and with some indication of value eg $10 pays one weeks ISP (or whatever).
- use some system which is as clearly safe as possible eg if outside US, can't just post you a cheque/check- one way I have paid is at www.drglobal (or whatever its called) which uses a separate payment site.
-mention all of this in the initial registration process
-make the donation link a bit bigger than the others and separate, rather than tucking it modestly right at the end of a list...Fi
Posted by Fi on April 21, 2003, at 15:26:04
In reply to Re: financial hit » Dr. Bob, posted by Fi on April 21, 2003, at 15:20:16
And maybe make it clearer how to donate (eg on support page, before list of donors, have easy details/link to click or whatever?) Havent looked thoroughly but didnt see this.
Fi
Posted by stjames on April 21, 2003, at 17:59:40
In reply to Re: financial hit » Dr. Bob, posted by Fi on April 21, 2003, at 15:20:16
I've done well on AD's for 20 years so my reasons
posting here are different from most. I am trying to share what I have learned over the 20 yrs that has allowed me to do so well.I am not going to pay to do this.
I might be of a different opinion if I came to this site to gather info, but I don't.
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 22, 2003, at 8:51:08
In reply to Re: financial hit, posted by Dr. Bob on April 21, 2003, at 6:36:29
> I've done well on AD's for 20 years so my reasons
> posting here are different from most. I am trying to share what I have learned over the 20 yrs that has allowed me to do so well.
>
> I am not going to pay to do this.
>
> I might be of a different opinion if I came to this site to gather info, but I don't.I realize this, and that's one of the reasons I haven't gone ahead with this. I also appreciate the comments others have made...
Bob
Posted by noa on April 22, 2003, at 9:26:25
In reply to Re: financial hit, posted by Dr. Bob on April 22, 2003, at 8:51:08
I don't like the idea of having to pay to participate, or of an agressive hit for donations. Maybe voluntary "supporting membership" could work. Promoted, but not pushed too hard.
Posted by shar on April 22, 2003, at 19:02:05
In reply to Re: financial hit, posted by noa on April 22, 2003, at 9:26:25
I'd pay. But, I'm not even currently up to date on paying my bills, so I don't know with what I'd pay. Is a hot check ok? Just kidding, of course (although my creditors don't think it's all that funny).
I like the idea of a fund drive, or slightly-coerced-voluntary donations.
I think there should be a financial health page added, and that could contain info such as members who have donated, and discussions about possible fees, and maybe 'scholarships' for folks who can't pay, and maybe 'honorary' memberships for folks who come mainly to provide information (like james mentioned).
Plus, we could use the page to discuss possible psychobabble treasures for sale, like PB underwear, or gimme caps, or pens/pencils. OR we could probably get some of the DRUG COMPANIES to underwrite the babbles (with their budgets we'd be in good shape for years!!!), and then we could get on PB and swear we all use that drug (the one of the underwriter) and how great it is, and then after that we'll just go back to normal PB stuff like bitching about how crappy that drug is.
Hey, I think that may be a winner!!
Shar
Posted by Dragonslayer on April 23, 2003, at 8:10:13
In reply to Psycho-Babble no longer considered research, posted by Dr. Bob on April 19, 2003, at 9:21:30
> My Institutional Review Board and I have agreed that Psycho-Babble will no longer be considered a research study, since no specific formal research protocols are currently active.>At one time the research protocols must have been active to begin this endeavor. Will the "subjects" have an opportunity to learn your conclusions? Or was this project dropped entirely and not completed?
Posted by Tabitha on April 23, 2003, at 11:55:32
In reply to If it's pay or no more babbles......., posted by shar on April 22, 2003, at 19:02:05
Good plan, Shar. Especially the PB underwear. It would have the words "Please Be Civil" across the front of course. Maybe Doc Bob's picture? Oh no that's a scary idea.
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 23, 2003, at 17:58:16
In reply to Re: Psycho-Babble no longer considered research, posted by Dragonslayer on April 23, 2003, at 8:10:13
> At one time the research protocols must have been active to begin this endeavor. Will the "subjects" have an opportunity to learn your conclusions?
Don't worry, I post everything at:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/research.html
Bob
Posted by shar on April 23, 2003, at 20:03:36
In reply to Re: If it's pay or no more babbles....... » shar, posted by Tabitha on April 23, 2003, at 11:55:32
OK, our first product! That is a great idea!! Should it be printed on the front or back?
I agree we could forgo the pic of the good doctor.
Shar 8-)
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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