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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 49. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Deneb on October 4, 2006, at 17:21:08
I found this article interesting.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3178242.stm
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Brain scan shows rejection pain
The same brain area "lit up" on the scan
Being snubbed socially provokes exactly the same brain response as being physically hurt, say US researchers.Volunteers were asked to play a computer game designed to fool them into feeling excluded, while brain scans were taken at the same time.
After the computerised snub, the scan detected activity in an area of the brain linked to physical pain.
Experts say the study, from the journal Science, is a hint to the importance the brain places on social ties.
The researchers involved in the study, from the University of California at Los Angeles, used an MRI scanner to probe the brains of their test subject as their feelings were manipulated.
These scanners can detect subtle changes in blood flow to various parts of the brain - which indicate when the region is active.
To provoke the right response, they devised an ingenious computer simulation designed to be reminiscent of a playground game.
The participants were shown a screen which gave the appearance of a "ball-throwing" game involving both the volunteer and two other figures, represented by animated characters.
The test subjects were told that real people were controlling the other two "people", and the game took the form of throwing the ball in turn between all three of them.
Of course, this was an elaborate hoax - there were no other human players, and the other characters in the game were controlled entirely by the computer.
At first, the game proceeded as it should, with the ball coming at regular intervals to the player controlled by the human volunteer.
Mean machine
However, after a while, the two computer controlled characters started throwing the ball only to each other, apparently excluding the test subject from the game.
It was at this point that the brain reactions were measured by the scanner.
The researchers noticed one key area of the brain "lighting up" on the scan when this happened.
This area, the anterior cingulate cortex, is already known to be associated with the brain's response to the unpleasant feelings linked to physical pain.
This was not just a frustrated reaction to not being able to play - researchers had already tested this by having a short period at the start of the game in which the controls appeared not to work properly.
The researchers wrote: "Evidence suggests that some of the same neural machinery recruited in the experience of pain may also be associated with social separation or rejection."
Powerful feelings
Dr Jaak Panksepp, from the Centre for Neuroscience, Mind and Behavior at Bowling Green State University in Ohio, said that feelings of social exclusion were powerful instincts in animals and humans.
He said: "The feelings induced by experimental games in the laboratory, are a pale shadow of the real-life feelings that humans and other animals experience in response to the sudden loss of social support.
"Psychological pain in humans, especially grief and intense loneliness, may share some of the same neural pathways that elaborate physical pain.
"Given the dependence of mammalian young on their caregivers, it is hard not to comprehend the strong survival value conferred by common neural pathways that elaborate both social attachment and the affective qualities of physical pain."
Posted by SLS on October 4, 2006, at 17:47:18
In reply to Blocks and other forms of exclusion hurt, posted by Deneb on October 4, 2006, at 17:21:08
Very important information.
Public school was a very "painful" experience for me because of my perceived rejection by my peers. It really did "hurt". Perhaps there are reasons why we choose these words to describe these events.
It is interesting that people who are depressed sometimes describe their experience as "psychic pain".
- Scott
Posted by Jost on October 4, 2006, at 18:13:01
In reply to Re: Blocks and other forms of exclusion hurt, posted by SLS on October 4, 2006, at 17:47:18
"Dr Jaak Panksepp, from the Centre for Neuroscience, Mind and Behavior at Bowling Green State University in Ohio, said that feelings of social exclusion were powerful instincts in animals and humans.
He said: "The feelings induced by experimental games in the laboratory, are a pale shadow of the real-life feelings that humans and other animals experience in response to the sudden loss of social support. "
Not to quibble but isn't the last a bit of an unproven assertion? Maybe laboratories intensify feelings?
I mean maybe if you lose all social support-- but if you're excluded from a game of ping-pong? :)
Jost
Posted by fayeroe on October 4, 2006, at 21:53:08
In reply to Re: Blocks and other forms of exclusion hurt, posted by Jost on October 4, 2006, at 18:13:01
**I mean maybe if you lose all social support-- but if you're excluded from a game of ping-pong? :)**
Exclusion is exclusion anyway you cut it. SLS mentioned being left out in school activities.
Being excluded means you aren't being noticed. Not being noticed sometimes causes a person to do very irrational things for attention. Irrational behavior is almost always harmful in someway or the other. We may have seen examples of it recently in the violence towards school children.
I commend Deneb, very much, for bringing the research to our attention. p
Posted by Jost on October 4, 2006, at 22:12:19
In reply to Re: Blocks and other forms of exclusion hurt, posted by fayeroe on October 4, 2006, at 21:53:08
I didn't mean my comment to be frivolous. I was imagining a situation in which friends are together. Sometimes even with good friends, you can feel excluded at a moment when your friends are playing and interacting more intensely with one another than with you.
In this case I was imagining being in someone's house and having your friends be playing a game for two, and even if they're friends, feeling left out.
Not that it's a happy or "good" feeling-- although it may be part of separateness, and potentially of the motivation to turn aloneness, or even loneliness, into something constructive.
That isn't to say that isolation or feeling excluded is something one should impose on people carelessly, but it's also to suggest that the feeling can be tolerated, or even maybe bring you to some other level of insight. For example, you can begin to appreciate your friends' friendship with one another, their ability to put out move and countermove in the game-- or lots of other things, if you don't get lost in the feeling of being excluded.
Jost
Posted by notfred on October 5, 2006, at 0:10:28
In reply to Blocks and other forms of exclusion hurt, posted by Deneb on October 4, 2006, at 17:21:08
Blocks are the direct action of a persons behaviors and actions on this board. No one can cause you to feel anything. If the consenquences of your actions
result in feeling hurt then reconsider your actions and not the result.
Posted by notfred on October 5, 2006, at 0:42:43
In reply to Re: Blocks and other forms of exclusion hurt, posted by fayeroe on October 4, 2006, at 21:53:08
> Exclusion is exclusion anyway you cut it.
That is too black and white for me. Violent
criminals should and are excluded from society.
Posted by Deneb on October 5, 2006, at 1:13:38
In reply to Blocks do not cause hurt, posted by notfred on October 5, 2006, at 0:10:28
> No one can cause you to feel anything.
Maybe no one can, but some actions can. It's theorized that it's evolutionarily advantageous to develop hurt feelings from being excluded from a social group because being a part of the group was very important for survival. I'm not saying blocks are a bad idea. I'm saying that blocks cause hurt and yes one will avoid doing things that bring about a block because of the hurt it causes. I don't think the reason for the block affects the feelings that result, yes, from the block. Unless one is a sociopath, social exclusion should and does hurt. It's not just a matter of thinking, "I deserved it" so therefore I shouldn't hurt over it. Deserved or not, they hurt.
If the consenquences of your actions
> result in feeling hurt then reconsider your actions and not the result.Where did I write that we should reconsider the result?
Deneb*
Posted by Deneb on October 5, 2006, at 1:30:13
In reply to Blocks do not cause hurt, posted by notfred on October 5, 2006, at 0:10:28
Notfred,
I was upset after reading your post. When you write, "Blocks do not cause hurt" it makes me think that I shouldn't have felt hurt when I was blocked and that there is something wrong with me if I did. I feel like it invalidates my very real experience. Do you understand how I feel about that?
Can I ask for you to be sensitive to my feelings?
Thanks
Deneb*
Posted by notfred on October 5, 2006, at 1:31:57
In reply to Re: Blocks do cause hurt » notfred, posted by Deneb on October 5, 2006, at 1:13:38
. Unless one is a sociopath, social exclusion should and does hurt. It's not just a matter of thinking, "I deserved it" so therefore I shouldn't hurt over it. Deserved or not, they hurt.
You have a right to your feelings, don't blame others for your feelings.
> If the consenquences of your actions
> > result in feeling hurt then reconsider your actions and not the result.
>
> Where did I write that we should reconsider the result?
>
> Deneb*
>I said : "reconsider your actions" ie, the action that caused the block. The result is the block and exclusion.
Also, when one is blocked it is not total exclusion as they can still read. The majority of those who come here never post.
In the lab exclusion can happen w/o any event causing the exclusion. IRL exclusion happens as the result of actions or behaviors. That is not to say that just because your behaviors cause exclusion that your behaviors are bad or should be changed. Perhaps you should associate with another group. Nor do I agree with all blocks but all blocks are the result of actions and behaviors that were **well** pointed out (PBC) prior to the block.
Posted by NikkiT2 on October 5, 2006, at 4:09:09
In reply to Blocks and other forms of exclusion hurt, posted by Deneb on October 4, 2006, at 17:21:08
Not being made to feel safe hurts too Deneb.
I hope you never have to deal with an online, obsessive, stalker, but maybe if you had you would understand the need for safety more than you currently do.
Posted by Deneb on October 5, 2006, at 16:07:57
In reply to Re: Blocks do cause hurt, posted by notfred on October 5, 2006, at 1:31:57
> You have a right to your feelings, don't blame others for your feelings.
I'm not blaming others for my feelings. I'm just saying that certain actions cause people to feel hurt. I'm also not against blocks. I think they are the best way to deal with incivility for the time being.
> In the lab exclusion can happen w/o any event causing the exclusion. IRL exclusion happens as the result of actions or behaviors.
I disagree. Sometimes exclusion results based only on who you are. What about exclusion based on ethnicity or disability?
Here blocks result because of behaviour, but not all IRL exclusion happen as a result of behaviours.
Again I reiterate, I'm not against blocks and I don't blame Dr. Bob for blocking me. I'm not blaming anyone for my feelings. I'm just expressing them.
Deneb*
P.S. Sorry if I seemed a little angry in my previous post. You're just trying to have a rational discussion and I'm emotionally volatile.
Posted by gardenergirl on October 5, 2006, at 16:21:28
In reply to Re: Blocks do cause hurt » notfred, posted by Deneb on October 5, 2006, at 16:07:57
> > You have a right to your feelings, don't blame others for your feelings.
>
> I'm not blaming others for my feelings. I'm just saying that certain actions cause people to feel hurt.I disagree. An action cannot cause a feeling if there is no meaning or value of some kind attached/attributed to the action by the person. The feeling comes from within, not from without the person.
A feeling certainly can be in *reaction to* an action or event, for example a block. But the block itself cannot cause someone to feel something if they do not attach any meaning, value, or other emotional valence to it. Or, as I've said before, if you are completely indifferent to an action or event, you could not feel hurt about it.
Of course many of us *do* attach some meaning to a block and are not indifferent to what it means to us. So we do react. It can hurt. It's just not *caused by* the block.
gg
Posted by Deneb on October 5, 2006, at 17:01:19
In reply to Re: Blocks do cause hurt » Deneb, posted by gardenergirl on October 5, 2006, at 16:21:28
> I disagree. An action cannot cause a feeling if there is no meaning or value of some kind attached/attributed to the action by the person. The feeling comes from within, not from without the person.
What about for little babies who don't yet have the capacity to attach meaning to actions yet? If a mother picks up her baby, the baby often stops crying. If the mother then puts the baby down, the baby might feel hurt and start crying again. The action leads to hurt. I'm thinking that the hurt feelings that result from most exclusions are instinctive. I don't think much thought need to be given to the actions at all.
I do get what you mean though, but I just think they don't apply to *all* actions.
In the case of blocks, now that I think about it, you are correct. If one does not care whatsoever about the Babble community, it is conceivable that that person would not feel hurt after being blocked.
Deneb*
Posted by notfred on October 5, 2006, at 19:20:42
In reply to Re: Blocks do cause hurt » gardenergirl, posted by Deneb on October 5, 2006, at 17:01:19
If one does not care whatsoever about the Babble community, it is conceivable that that person would not feel hurt after being blocked.
What does "not care whatsoever about the Babble community" have to do with not being hurt by blocks ? This kinda sounds like a judgement of others.
Posted by Deneb on October 5, 2006, at 20:11:31
In reply to Re: Blocks do cause hurt, posted by notfred on October 5, 2006, at 19:20:42
The conversation between us is upsetting me.
Deneb*
Posted by Deneb on October 5, 2006, at 20:28:01
In reply to Re: Blocks do cause hurt, posted by notfred on October 5, 2006, at 19:20:42
I had written:
"Unless one is a sociopath, social exclusion should and does hurt."I don't think I should have written that as it may lead some sociopaths to feel put down by saying that they would not feel hurt if excluded. It also jumps to a conclusion about sociopaths. I'm sorry I wrote that.
Deneb*
Posted by alexandra_k on October 5, 2006, at 21:42:45
In reply to Sorry about something I wrote, posted by Deneb on October 5, 2006, at 20:28:01
I think that whether blocks hurt or not, and if they do hurt how much they hurt depends on a variety of factors.
Some people might not feel hurt by a block because:
- They were ready for a Babble break
- They wanted to be blocked (to do more IRL). I guess this is related to the first point.
- They think they deserved the block.
- They knew they were going to be blocked for what they said, but they posted it anyway.I guess those are related.
- They might not care about being blocked from Babble. I don't care if I get blocked from PsychCentral, for example. I don't think it has to do with sociopathy, but it might have a bit to do with attachment to people...
Some people feel hurt by a block but it is a manageable hurt. Like if you are stabbed by a pin I guess you feel a bit of a sharp shock, but it passes soon enough. Some people might feel mildly annoyed. Or a bit pissed. But the hurt is manageable. The hurt is supposed to be what makes blocks aversive. The aversiveness is required in order to make blocks have their intended effect of less people posting those kinds of posts.
Some people might feel really really really really really hurt by a block. That could be for a variety of reasons too:
- Because one is really attached to Babblers and there is a sudden loss of social support.
- Because one doesn't understand why one was blocked.
- Because one has been hurt in the past.Variety of reasons.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 5, 2006, at 21:43:10
In reply to Re: blocks hurting, posted by alexandra_k on October 5, 2006, at 21:42:45
Oh.
Because one has intense emotions and difficulty regulating them...
Posted by NikkiT2 on October 6, 2006, at 0:42:36
In reply to Re: Blocks do cause hurt » gardenergirl, posted by Deneb on October 5, 2006, at 17:01:19
>If one does not care whatsoever about the Babble community, it is conceivable that that person would not feel hurt after being blocked.
I care *very* much about Babble, but have never felt hurt when being blocked. Each time I simply accepted it was due to my own behaviour.
I have felt *very very* hurt though by the action of other posters here.
I guess this is my point. Each person feels differently about all things, and Babble will never be able to fulfill all things for all people and its impossible for it to even try.
In all honesty Deneb, I worry that you are trying to emotionally blackmail in a "if you block me again this is what you will do to me" kind o way. Are you?
Nikki
Posted by Deneb on October 6, 2006, at 1:18:51
In reply to Re: Blocks do cause hurt » Deneb, posted by NikkiT2 on October 6, 2006, at 0:42:36
I'm getting terribly upset. Someone who isn't supposed to be writing to me is. Can people give me a hug over on social?
Deneb*
Posted by Deneb on October 6, 2006, at 1:26:35
In reply to Re: Blocks do cause hurt » Deneb, posted by NikkiT2 on October 6, 2006, at 0:42:36
> >If one does not care whatsoever about the Babble community, it is conceivable that that person would not feel hurt after being blocked.
>
> I care *very* much about Babble, but have never felt hurt when being blocked. Each time I simply accepted it was due to my own behaviour.I was not saying that people who are not hurt by blocks are sociopaths. I was saying that *true* sociopaths would likely not feel hurt and I shouldn't have that that still because I might put *real* sociopaths down. I was basing my conclusions on the *definition* of a sociopath. But I realize that I'm being hypocritical if I say that people shouldn't call trolls unfeeling and yet it's ok to call sociopaths that. I realize my mistake and I"m sorry I implied that sociopaths do not feel hurt.
>
> I have felt *very very* hurt though by the action of other posters here.I'm sorry you felt hurt. I've felt very hurt by the actions of posters here too. Again I reiterate, I'm *not* against blocks.
> In all honesty Deneb, I worry that you are trying to emotionally blackmail in a "if you block me again this is what you will do to me" kind o way. Are you?
>
> NikkiI'm just telling the truth Nikki. I'm not blackmailing anyone. Is it best if I not express my hurt over being blocked? Why? How come I can express other hurts but not the hurt over being blocked?
Deneb*
Posted by alexandra_k on October 6, 2006, at 1:33:23
In reply to Re: Blocks do cause hurt » NikkiT2, posted by Deneb on October 6, 2006, at 1:26:35
> I was not saying that people who are not hurt by blocks are sociopaths. I was saying that *true* sociopaths would likely not feel hurt and I shouldn't have that that still because I might put *real* sociopaths down. I was basing my conclusions on the *definition* of a sociopath. But I realize that I'm being hypocritical if I say that people shouldn't call trolls unfeeling and yet it's ok to call sociopaths that. I realize my mistake and I"m sorry I implied that sociopaths do not feel hurt.Thats a lovely thing to have said, Deneb.
> Is it best if I not express my hurt over being blocked?
I think you should be able to express your hurts on Babble.
> How come I can express other hurts but not the hurt over being blocked?
I think that is because... You understand why you were blocked - don't you?
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on October 6, 2006, at 13:02:25
In reply to Re: Blocks can result in serious hurt » Deneb, posted by alexandra_k on October 6, 2006, at 1:33:23
What I don't understand about the whole blocks thing, in my opinion, is that its pretty difficult to get yourself blocked. I find it very easy to stick to the guidelines, I mean I don't offend people I barely know in person, or strangers in the street, or even my good friends so why would I do it here?
I'm sure if I get blocked (which I obviously don't plan to do) then it'll have been for a very good reason, and I probably deserve any pain or feelings of exclusion that I get from that block.
In honestly, I think I would feel pretty hurt if I got blocked. So therefore I don't post anything that may offend someone or which may lead to a block.
Its as simple as that.
Kind regards
Meri
Posted by alexandra_k on October 6, 2006, at 17:15:11
In reply to Re: Blocks can result in serious hurt, posted by Meri-Tuuli on October 6, 2006, at 13:02:25
> What I don't understand about the whole blocks thing, in my opinion, is that its pretty difficult to get yourself blocked.
Did you see what someone got blocked for over on faith?
'There is truth in all religion but not all religions are all true'.
People have been blocked for saying f*rt without an asterisk.
Bob is getting better, but it is still the case that people get blocked for up to one year as a result of those kinds of things.> I don't offend people I barely know in person, or strangers in the street, or even my good friends so why would I do it here?
I don't think it is fair to assume that everyone who gets blocked has offended people here. Do you know a single person here offended by f*rt without an asterisk?
> I'm sure if I get blocked (which I obviously don't plan to do) then it'll have been for a very good reason, and I probably deserve any pain or feelings of exclusion that I get from that block.I hope so. For your sake.
> In honestly, I think I would feel pretty hurt if I got blocked. So therefore I don't post anything that may offend someone or which may lead to a block.
> Its as simple as that.If only it was.
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