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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 6 to 30 of 49. Go back in thread:
Posted by notfred on October 5, 2006, at 0:10:28
In reply to Blocks and other forms of exclusion hurt, posted by Deneb on October 4, 2006, at 17:21:08
Blocks are the direct action of a persons behaviors and actions on this board. No one can cause you to feel anything. If the consenquences of your actions
result in feeling hurt then reconsider your actions and not the result.
Posted by notfred on October 5, 2006, at 0:42:43
In reply to Re: Blocks and other forms of exclusion hurt, posted by fayeroe on October 4, 2006, at 21:53:08
> Exclusion is exclusion anyway you cut it.
That is too black and white for me. Violent
criminals should and are excluded from society.
Posted by Deneb on October 5, 2006, at 1:13:38
In reply to Blocks do not cause hurt, posted by notfred on October 5, 2006, at 0:10:28
> No one can cause you to feel anything.
Maybe no one can, but some actions can. It's theorized that it's evolutionarily advantageous to develop hurt feelings from being excluded from a social group because being a part of the group was very important for survival. I'm not saying blocks are a bad idea. I'm saying that blocks cause hurt and yes one will avoid doing things that bring about a block because of the hurt it causes. I don't think the reason for the block affects the feelings that result, yes, from the block. Unless one is a sociopath, social exclusion should and does hurt. It's not just a matter of thinking, "I deserved it" so therefore I shouldn't hurt over it. Deserved or not, they hurt.
If the consenquences of your actions
> result in feeling hurt then reconsider your actions and not the result.Where did I write that we should reconsider the result?
Deneb*
Posted by Deneb on October 5, 2006, at 1:30:13
In reply to Blocks do not cause hurt, posted by notfred on October 5, 2006, at 0:10:28
Notfred,
I was upset after reading your post. When you write, "Blocks do not cause hurt" it makes me think that I shouldn't have felt hurt when I was blocked and that there is something wrong with me if I did. I feel like it invalidates my very real experience. Do you understand how I feel about that?
Can I ask for you to be sensitive to my feelings?
Thanks
Deneb*
Posted by notfred on October 5, 2006, at 1:31:57
In reply to Re: Blocks do cause hurt » notfred, posted by Deneb on October 5, 2006, at 1:13:38
. Unless one is a sociopath, social exclusion should and does hurt. It's not just a matter of thinking, "I deserved it" so therefore I shouldn't hurt over it. Deserved or not, they hurt.
You have a right to your feelings, don't blame others for your feelings.
> If the consenquences of your actions
> > result in feeling hurt then reconsider your actions and not the result.
>
> Where did I write that we should reconsider the result?
>
> Deneb*
>I said : "reconsider your actions" ie, the action that caused the block. The result is the block and exclusion.
Also, when one is blocked it is not total exclusion as they can still read. The majority of those who come here never post.
In the lab exclusion can happen w/o any event causing the exclusion. IRL exclusion happens as the result of actions or behaviors. That is not to say that just because your behaviors cause exclusion that your behaviors are bad or should be changed. Perhaps you should associate with another group. Nor do I agree with all blocks but all blocks are the result of actions and behaviors that were **well** pointed out (PBC) prior to the block.
Posted by NikkiT2 on October 5, 2006, at 4:09:09
In reply to Blocks and other forms of exclusion hurt, posted by Deneb on October 4, 2006, at 17:21:08
Not being made to feel safe hurts too Deneb.
I hope you never have to deal with an online, obsessive, stalker, but maybe if you had you would understand the need for safety more than you currently do.
Posted by Deneb on October 5, 2006, at 16:07:57
In reply to Re: Blocks do cause hurt, posted by notfred on October 5, 2006, at 1:31:57
> You have a right to your feelings, don't blame others for your feelings.
I'm not blaming others for my feelings. I'm just saying that certain actions cause people to feel hurt. I'm also not against blocks. I think they are the best way to deal with incivility for the time being.
> In the lab exclusion can happen w/o any event causing the exclusion. IRL exclusion happens as the result of actions or behaviors.
I disagree. Sometimes exclusion results based only on who you are. What about exclusion based on ethnicity or disability?
Here blocks result because of behaviour, but not all IRL exclusion happen as a result of behaviours.
Again I reiterate, I'm not against blocks and I don't blame Dr. Bob for blocking me. I'm not blaming anyone for my feelings. I'm just expressing them.
Deneb*
P.S. Sorry if I seemed a little angry in my previous post. You're just trying to have a rational discussion and I'm emotionally volatile.
Posted by gardenergirl on October 5, 2006, at 16:21:28
In reply to Re: Blocks do cause hurt » notfred, posted by Deneb on October 5, 2006, at 16:07:57
> > You have a right to your feelings, don't blame others for your feelings.
>
> I'm not blaming others for my feelings. I'm just saying that certain actions cause people to feel hurt.I disagree. An action cannot cause a feeling if there is no meaning or value of some kind attached/attributed to the action by the person. The feeling comes from within, not from without the person.
A feeling certainly can be in *reaction to* an action or event, for example a block. But the block itself cannot cause someone to feel something if they do not attach any meaning, value, or other emotional valence to it. Or, as I've said before, if you are completely indifferent to an action or event, you could not feel hurt about it.
Of course many of us *do* attach some meaning to a block and are not indifferent to what it means to us. So we do react. It can hurt. It's just not *caused by* the block.
gg
Posted by Deneb on October 5, 2006, at 17:01:19
In reply to Re: Blocks do cause hurt » Deneb, posted by gardenergirl on October 5, 2006, at 16:21:28
> I disagree. An action cannot cause a feeling if there is no meaning or value of some kind attached/attributed to the action by the person. The feeling comes from within, not from without the person.
What about for little babies who don't yet have the capacity to attach meaning to actions yet? If a mother picks up her baby, the baby often stops crying. If the mother then puts the baby down, the baby might feel hurt and start crying again. The action leads to hurt. I'm thinking that the hurt feelings that result from most exclusions are instinctive. I don't think much thought need to be given to the actions at all.
I do get what you mean though, but I just think they don't apply to *all* actions.
In the case of blocks, now that I think about it, you are correct. If one does not care whatsoever about the Babble community, it is conceivable that that person would not feel hurt after being blocked.
Deneb*
Posted by notfred on October 5, 2006, at 19:20:42
In reply to Re: Blocks do cause hurt » gardenergirl, posted by Deneb on October 5, 2006, at 17:01:19
If one does not care whatsoever about the Babble community, it is conceivable that that person would not feel hurt after being blocked.
What does "not care whatsoever about the Babble community" have to do with not being hurt by blocks ? This kinda sounds like a judgement of others.
Posted by Deneb on October 5, 2006, at 20:11:31
In reply to Re: Blocks do cause hurt, posted by notfred on October 5, 2006, at 19:20:42
The conversation between us is upsetting me.
Deneb*
Posted by Deneb on October 5, 2006, at 20:28:01
In reply to Re: Blocks do cause hurt, posted by notfred on October 5, 2006, at 19:20:42
I had written:
"Unless one is a sociopath, social exclusion should and does hurt."I don't think I should have written that as it may lead some sociopaths to feel put down by saying that they would not feel hurt if excluded. It also jumps to a conclusion about sociopaths. I'm sorry I wrote that.
Deneb*
Posted by alexandra_k on October 5, 2006, at 21:42:45
In reply to Sorry about something I wrote, posted by Deneb on October 5, 2006, at 20:28:01
I think that whether blocks hurt or not, and if they do hurt how much they hurt depends on a variety of factors.
Some people might not feel hurt by a block because:
- They were ready for a Babble break
- They wanted to be blocked (to do more IRL). I guess this is related to the first point.
- They think they deserved the block.
- They knew they were going to be blocked for what they said, but they posted it anyway.I guess those are related.
- They might not care about being blocked from Babble. I don't care if I get blocked from PsychCentral, for example. I don't think it has to do with sociopathy, but it might have a bit to do with attachment to people...
Some people feel hurt by a block but it is a manageable hurt. Like if you are stabbed by a pin I guess you feel a bit of a sharp shock, but it passes soon enough. Some people might feel mildly annoyed. Or a bit pissed. But the hurt is manageable. The hurt is supposed to be what makes blocks aversive. The aversiveness is required in order to make blocks have their intended effect of less people posting those kinds of posts.
Some people might feel really really really really really hurt by a block. That could be for a variety of reasons too:
- Because one is really attached to Babblers and there is a sudden loss of social support.
- Because one doesn't understand why one was blocked.
- Because one has been hurt in the past.Variety of reasons.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 5, 2006, at 21:43:10
In reply to Re: blocks hurting, posted by alexandra_k on October 5, 2006, at 21:42:45
Oh.
Because one has intense emotions and difficulty regulating them...
Posted by NikkiT2 on October 6, 2006, at 0:42:36
In reply to Re: Blocks do cause hurt » gardenergirl, posted by Deneb on October 5, 2006, at 17:01:19
>If one does not care whatsoever about the Babble community, it is conceivable that that person would not feel hurt after being blocked.
I care *very* much about Babble, but have never felt hurt when being blocked. Each time I simply accepted it was due to my own behaviour.
I have felt *very very* hurt though by the action of other posters here.
I guess this is my point. Each person feels differently about all things, and Babble will never be able to fulfill all things for all people and its impossible for it to even try.
In all honesty Deneb, I worry that you are trying to emotionally blackmail in a "if you block me again this is what you will do to me" kind o way. Are you?
Nikki
Posted by Deneb on October 6, 2006, at 1:18:51
In reply to Re: Blocks do cause hurt » Deneb, posted by NikkiT2 on October 6, 2006, at 0:42:36
I'm getting terribly upset. Someone who isn't supposed to be writing to me is. Can people give me a hug over on social?
Deneb*
Posted by Deneb on October 6, 2006, at 1:26:35
In reply to Re: Blocks do cause hurt » Deneb, posted by NikkiT2 on October 6, 2006, at 0:42:36
> >If one does not care whatsoever about the Babble community, it is conceivable that that person would not feel hurt after being blocked.
>
> I care *very* much about Babble, but have never felt hurt when being blocked. Each time I simply accepted it was due to my own behaviour.I was not saying that people who are not hurt by blocks are sociopaths. I was saying that *true* sociopaths would likely not feel hurt and I shouldn't have that that still because I might put *real* sociopaths down. I was basing my conclusions on the *definition* of a sociopath. But I realize that I'm being hypocritical if I say that people shouldn't call trolls unfeeling and yet it's ok to call sociopaths that. I realize my mistake and I"m sorry I implied that sociopaths do not feel hurt.
>
> I have felt *very very* hurt though by the action of other posters here.I'm sorry you felt hurt. I've felt very hurt by the actions of posters here too. Again I reiterate, I'm *not* against blocks.
> In all honesty Deneb, I worry that you are trying to emotionally blackmail in a "if you block me again this is what you will do to me" kind o way. Are you?
>
> NikkiI'm just telling the truth Nikki. I'm not blackmailing anyone. Is it best if I not express my hurt over being blocked? Why? How come I can express other hurts but not the hurt over being blocked?
Deneb*
Posted by alexandra_k on October 6, 2006, at 1:33:23
In reply to Re: Blocks do cause hurt » NikkiT2, posted by Deneb on October 6, 2006, at 1:26:35
> I was not saying that people who are not hurt by blocks are sociopaths. I was saying that *true* sociopaths would likely not feel hurt and I shouldn't have that that still because I might put *real* sociopaths down. I was basing my conclusions on the *definition* of a sociopath. But I realize that I'm being hypocritical if I say that people shouldn't call trolls unfeeling and yet it's ok to call sociopaths that. I realize my mistake and I"m sorry I implied that sociopaths do not feel hurt.Thats a lovely thing to have said, Deneb.
> Is it best if I not express my hurt over being blocked?
I think you should be able to express your hurts on Babble.
> How come I can express other hurts but not the hurt over being blocked?
I think that is because... You understand why you were blocked - don't you?
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on October 6, 2006, at 13:02:25
In reply to Re: Blocks can result in serious hurt » Deneb, posted by alexandra_k on October 6, 2006, at 1:33:23
What I don't understand about the whole blocks thing, in my opinion, is that its pretty difficult to get yourself blocked. I find it very easy to stick to the guidelines, I mean I don't offend people I barely know in person, or strangers in the street, or even my good friends so why would I do it here?
I'm sure if I get blocked (which I obviously don't plan to do) then it'll have been for a very good reason, and I probably deserve any pain or feelings of exclusion that I get from that block.
In honestly, I think I would feel pretty hurt if I got blocked. So therefore I don't post anything that may offend someone or which may lead to a block.
Its as simple as that.
Kind regards
Meri
Posted by alexandra_k on October 6, 2006, at 17:15:11
In reply to Re: Blocks can result in serious hurt, posted by Meri-Tuuli on October 6, 2006, at 13:02:25
> What I don't understand about the whole blocks thing, in my opinion, is that its pretty difficult to get yourself blocked.
Did you see what someone got blocked for over on faith?
'There is truth in all religion but not all religions are all true'.
People have been blocked for saying f*rt without an asterisk.
Bob is getting better, but it is still the case that people get blocked for up to one year as a result of those kinds of things.> I don't offend people I barely know in person, or strangers in the street, or even my good friends so why would I do it here?
I don't think it is fair to assume that everyone who gets blocked has offended people here. Do you know a single person here offended by f*rt without an asterisk?
> I'm sure if I get blocked (which I obviously don't plan to do) then it'll have been for a very good reason, and I probably deserve any pain or feelings of exclusion that I get from that block.I hope so. For your sake.
> In honestly, I think I would feel pretty hurt if I got blocked. So therefore I don't post anything that may offend someone or which may lead to a block.
> Its as simple as that.If only it was.
Posted by Deneb on October 7, 2006, at 0:41:34
In reply to Re: Blocks do cause hurt » Deneb, posted by NikkiT2 on October 6, 2006, at 0:42:36
> In all honesty Deneb, I worry that you are trying to emotionally blackmail in a "if you block me again this is what you will do to me" kind o way. Are you?
>
> NikkiI'm not sure what you mean by "emotionally blackmail," but I've just realized something that may have something to do with that.
I think, I think I *am* angry about having been blocked. I thought the punishment for *me* was too severe. I'm also not used to punishments in general, I was never punished as a child and punishment does not sit well with me.
I think I still get angry once in a while and when I'm angry I think I *do* want to "hurt" Dr. Bob. I think I want to hurt Dr. Bob by making him feel guilty, but I'm sure everything I do is to no avail because there is nothing to feel guilty about. I think I would do the same in his position, except everything is different for *me* you see. The rules don't seem to apply to *me*. I'm very egocentric still.
It's all very bizarre. On the one hand I love Dr. Bob and don't want to hurt him, but on the other I'm angry at what he did and I want to make him feel bad. I think...I think I've separated Dr. Bob into two people almost. The everyday Bob didn't block me and I love that Bob. The Bob who blocked me I'm angry with.
I love Bob, yet I can get angry at him. That leaves me confused.
Must be that black and white thinking or something.
Deneb*
Posted by Dinah on October 7, 2006, at 11:18:50
In reply to Re: Blocks do cause hurt » NikkiT2, posted by Deneb on October 7, 2006, at 0:41:34
:-)
Very good insight, Deneb. In my not humble enough opinion, it's important to realize that we can be angry, even with people we care about, and that that's not the end of the world.
And someday it won't seem like two Dr. Bob's at all, I'll bet. I'll bet someday you'll say something like "I really care a lot about Dr. Bob, but boy, he makes me angry sometimes." If you insert the name of just about everyone in my life, I've thought that about each and every one from time to time.
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on October 7, 2006, at 12:19:52
In reply to Re: Blocks can result in serious hurt » Meri-Tuuli, posted by alexandra_k on October 6, 2006, at 17:15:11
Hello
> 'There is truth in all religion etc
> People have been blocked for saying f*rt without an asterisk.But I can clearly see how saying that might lead to a block. It is clearly offensive to suggest that there are religions out there that might not be as they seem.
Are you sure that if someone used the word f*rt without an asterix and it was their first time doing anything 'uncivil' then they'd get a block straight away? Surely they'd get a warning first?
I find it easy to have a mental filter in my head - anything even vaguely uncivil alarm bells go off in my head, and I find alternative ways to express myself.
Kind regards
Meri
PS I realise the irony if I were to say, get blocked over this post. Ha!
Posted by Racer on October 7, 2006, at 13:12:45
In reply to Re: Blocks can result in serious hurt » alexandra_k, posted by Meri-Tuuli on October 7, 2006, at 12:19:52
> Hello
>
> >
> > People have been blocked for saying f*rt without an asterisk.
>
>
>
> Are you sure that if someone used the word f*rt without an asterix and it was their first time doing anything 'uncivil' then they'd get a block straight away? Surely they'd get a warning first?Yes, as a matter of fact, the f*rts brought on PBCs, not blocks...
Posted by Racer on October 7, 2006, at 13:22:33
In reply to Re: Blocks do cause hurt » NikkiT2, posted by Deneb on October 7, 2006, at 0:41:34
> >
> I think, I think I *am* angry about having been blocked. I thought the punishment for *me* was too severe.Are you angry that someone punished you? Or are you "angry," in more a sense of disappointed, at yourself for the behavior that led to the block? I guess what I'm asking is whether you know what you did that led to the block, why it was a problem? Does that make sense?
>
> It's all very bizarre. On the one hand I love Dr. Bob and don't want to hurt him, but on the other I'm angry at what he did and I want to make him feel bad. I think...I think I've separated Dr. Bob into two people almost. The everyday Bob didn't block me and I love that Bob. The Bob who blocked me I'm angry with.
>
> I love Bob, yet I can get angry at him. That leaves me confused.
>
> Must be that black and white thinking or something.
>
> Deneb*It's related to the black and white thinking, Deneb. As Dinah has already mentioned, part of "growing up" -- or whatever you want to call it -- is getting past the idea that anyone is ALL good or ALL bad. The fact that you can hold two conflicting "Bobs" in your head at one time, the Bob you "love" and the Bob you're angry at, and know that they're the same person -- that's called "progress." ;-)
I need to say something else about blocks hurting, though. And I'll resist the temptation to make any reference to ASPD...
I was blocked a bit more than a year ago, for one week. It didn't feel good, because I am used to posting freely on Babble, whenever I've got something to say. Not having that freedom wasn't a good feeling.
BUT I knew what I had done, I knew I borke the rules -- I knew before posting that I was at the very least flirting with a block before posting my offending post. So, I sat out my block knowing that I'd earned it, in a big way, and I felt no anger towards Bob for blocking me. I didn't feel hurt by his action in blocking me. I didn't feel excluded by it, because I knew it was temporary. It really wasn't painful, in any larger sense. Really, I think I was just feeling a little bored by not having the opportunity to post on Babble. I could still read, so I didn't feel locked out.
Just so that people know that there are other reactions to being blocked. I don't think I'm the only one who reacts this way to being blocked, either. Yes, being blocked can be painful for people. It can also be painLESS for some otherwise normally socialized people...
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