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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by zazenducky on October 11, 2006, at 8:38:27
In reply to Please be civil » Triolian, posted by gardenergirl on October 10, 2006, at 21:30:52
I believe szaz's opinion of ect is not lacking in civility. It is an opinion about the effectiveness of a medical procedure not a personal put down or accusation.
> > It's foolish to submit to it,
>
> Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
>
> Follow-ups regarding these issues should be directed to Admin and should of course be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions. Thus, you can always appeal this decision to him, and he may choose a different action.
>
> Regards,
> deputy gg
>
>
Posted by zazenducky on October 11, 2006, at 9:05:18
In reply to Re: Please be civil Dr Szaz, posted by zazenducky on October 11, 2006, at 8:38:27
I hope you will be welcome on the board. Or at least your words. I would love to hear your opinion of the goings on here.
And on another note I hope you are not dead or in captivity etc. I wonder how szasz love would be different from bob love? (no offense deneb)
I haven't read your books since I was deneb's age or younger...I have something to say
I am not mentally ill! Perhaps they will give me my own board.
Dr Bob could we have a board for people who do not have mental illness?
> I believe szaz's opinion of ect is not lacking in civility. It is an opinion about the effectiveness of a medical procedure not a personal put down or accusation.
>
> > > It's foolish to submit to it,
> >
> > Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
> >
> > Follow-ups regarding these issues should be directed to Admin and should of course be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions. Thus, you can always appeal this decision to him, and he may choose a different action.
> >
> > Regards,
> > deputy gg
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by gardenergirl on October 11, 2006, at 14:42:59
In reply to Re: Please be civil Dr Szaz, posted by zazenducky on October 11, 2006, at 8:38:27
> I believe szaz's opinion of ect is not lacking in civility. It is an opinion about the effectiveness of a medical procedure not a personal put down or accusation.
Stating a view on the efficacy of a treatment is one issue. Characterizing as "foolish" those who have or will undergo that treatment, even when quoting or paraphrasing someone else's view, is a different issue. The latter is the subject of the PBC, not the former.
gg
Posted by zazenducky on October 11, 2006, at 15:36:55
In reply to Re: Please be civil Dr Szaz » zazenducky, posted by gardenergirl on October 11, 2006, at 14:42:59
> > I believe szaz's opinion of ect is not lacking in civility. It is an opinion about the effectiveness of a medical procedure not a personal put down or accusation.
>
> Stating a view on the efficacy of a treatment is one issue. Characterizing as "foolish" those who have or will undergo that treatment,I thought he was saying Szaz said it would be foolish to submit to ect in the same way he might have said it would be foolish to submit to a course of leeches meaning it would be an ineffective treatment not that the person was a fool for choosing it.
I think saying a certain treatment would be unwise according to a particular school of thought is okay but somehow I'm not surprised at all that you remain satisfied with your actions!How's Barbaro?
even when quoting or paraphrasing someone else's view, is a different issue. The latter is the subject of the PBC, not the former.
>
> gg
Posted by zazenducky on October 11, 2006, at 15:41:34
In reply to I'm sorry I misspelled your name Dr Szasz, posted by zazenducky on October 11, 2006, at 9:05:18
86 years alive
what are you doing in Wiki with tom cruise
you just love everybody don't you?write back soon
Posted by Toph on October 13, 2006, at 10:53:46
In reply to Re: Please be civil Dr Szaz, posted by zazenducky on October 11, 2006, at 8:38:27
I remember reading about Szasz in graduate school years ago. Perhaps he was a necessary irritant needed to shake up the psychiatric community at the time. I am no scholar of his work but his assertion that there is no mental illness is dangerous and condescending.
http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Szasz/myth.htm
I have Bipolar I disorder with psychotic features. If someone would say to my face that my repeated hospitalizations stemmed merely from a difficulty I have in adjusting to life as Szasz suggests, I would punch him in the nose.
Posted by zazenducky on October 13, 2006, at 11:45:26
In reply to Re: Please be civil Dr Szaz » zazenducky, posted by Toph on October 13, 2006, at 10:53:46
> I have Bipolar I disorder with psychotic features. If someone would say to my face that my repeated hospitalizations stemmed merely from a difficulty I have in adjusting to life as Szasz suggests, I would punch him in the nose.
If you were not Bipolar would you punch someone in the nose because you didn't agree with him?Should all people that punch others in the nose because they don't agree with them be considered mentally ill and medicated?
If not , why not?
Posted by Toph on October 13, 2006, at 12:20:04
In reply to Re: Please be civil to Dr Szaz » Toph, posted by zazenducky on October 13, 2006, at 11:45:26
> If you were not Bipolar would you punch someone in the nose because you didn't agree with him?
>No, just Szasz.
> Should all people that punch others in the nose because they don't agree with them be considered mentally ill and medicated?
No, just Szasz.
Posted by Toph on October 13, 2006, at 14:00:36
In reply to Re: Please be civil to Dr Szaz » Toph, posted by zazenducky on October 13, 2006, at 11:45:26
I lost 10 years of my life fighting a diagnosis of Bipolar disorder. It resulted in repeated manic episodes manifested in psychotic delusions and paranoia followed by major manic episodes of excruciating pain and suicidal ideation. When my son was born I had an epiphany of sorts. For the first time I accepted that I had a chronic mental illness. Since this acceptance and compliance with lithium, my adjustment to life has been just fine thank you. I haven’t seen the inside of a psych ward in 25 years.
I know I have a chronic mental illness, a chemical imbalance, and yes, I get a little uncivil when I hear the self-serving, irresponsible rants of a guy who either has never treated a schizophrenic or bipolar or is blindly ignorant to the biology of their illnesses. I only wish their was one ounce of truth to what this guy says. And so does my son.
Toph
Posted by zazenducky on October 13, 2006, at 14:56:27
In reply to Re: Please be civil to Dr Szaz » zazenducky, posted by Toph on October 13, 2006, at 14:00:36
http://www.reason.com/0505/cr.js.thomas.shtml
Maybe you have a neurological illness or a brain disorder. That doesn't prove mental illness exists. Even Szasz admits some schizophrenia or bipolar may be brain disorders.It just hasn't been proven.
I respect your experience but others have had equally painful experiences as a result of being labelled mentally ill when they were just different. And people have lived unusual and painful lives without being labelled mentally ill and have found other ways to deal with that pain.
I still wish Bob would make a board for people who do not accept the concept of mental illness.
It's not personal. I don't want to argue with you on a personal level.
> I lost 10 years of my life fighting a diagnosis of Bipolar disorder. It resulted in repeated manic episodes manifested in psychotic delusions and paranoia followed by major manic episodes of excruciating pain and suicidal ideation. When my son was born I had an epiphany of sorts. For the first time I accepted that I had a chronic mental illness. Since this acceptance and compliance with lithium, my adjustment to life has been just fine thank you. I haven’t seen the inside of a psych ward in 25 years.
>
> I know I have a chronic mental illness, a chemical imbalance, and yes, I get a little uncivil when I hear the self-serving, irresponsible rants of a guy who either has never treated a schizophrenic or bipolar or is blindly ignorant to the biology of their illnesses. I only wish their was one ounce of truth to what this guy says. And so does my son.
>
> Toph
>
Posted by Toph on October 13, 2006, at 15:06:59
In reply to Request Problems in Living Board, posted by zazenducky on October 13, 2006, at 14:56:27
>
> Maybe you have a neurological illness or a brain disorder. That doesn't prove mental illness exists...
>
> It's not personal. I don't want to argue with you on a personal level.
>
My beef isn't with you.If he wants to call what I have a neurological illness, a biochemical illness or some kind of brain disorder, he can knock himself out. I know a duck when I see one.
Posted by zazenducky on October 13, 2006, at 15:17:30
In reply to Re: Request Problems in Living Board, posted by Toph on October 13, 2006, at 15:06:59
>
> >
> > Maybe you have a neurological illness or a brain disorder. That doesn't prove mental illness exists...
> >
> > It's not personal. I don't want to argue with you on a personal level.
> >
> My beef isn't with you.
>
> If he wants to call what I have a neurological illness, a biochemical illness or some kind of brain disorder, he can knock himself out.>I know a duck when I see one.
Now there's a felicitous phrase :) I have a problem in staying off the admin board. I need to shut up and go to work and stop thinking so much. The two are pretty much incompatible!
Posted by alexandra_k on October 13, 2006, at 20:46:33
In reply to Re: Request Problems in Living Board, posted by zazenducky on October 13, 2006, at 15:17:30
He isn't that bad.
He has a narrow conception of 'disease'. He thinks that disease refers to bodily disease.
He also seems to be an eliminativist about the mind. Strange view... But it doesn't make him a bad person.
Because he doesn't believe in minds he also doesn't believe in 'mental disease'.
He thinks that it might be the case that some people who we currently consider mentally diseased have some kind of brain disease. If that is so then they have a neurological illness.
He thinks that the notion of 'mental disease' can only be metaphorical, however.
Strange...
But he is alright really. He has been given a bad rap over the years...
He isn't that bad...
Posted by Toph on October 14, 2006, at 9:35:12
In reply to Re: Request Problems in Living Board, posted by zazenducky on October 13, 2006, at 15:17:30
I did not consciously choose that phrase because of your name z, really. I hope you return to admin whenever you like. Szasz strikes a nerve with me mainly for three reasons. First, I am mentally ill as I stated above, and it took a lot of suffering to accept this fact, as much as I wanted to believe that just the right talk therapy would end the repeated interruptions in my functioning. Second, my first psychiatrist was a preeminent Chicago psychotherapist, who, when I suffered my first major manic episode, refused to see me on the psych ward because, like Szasz, he believed that I needed no medications as my parents were competely at fault for my "adjustment" problem. And lastly, I worked 2 unhappy years at the University of Chicago Orthogenic School at a therapist and supervisor. Bruno Bettelheim did his life's work there. Szasz' theories resonate with me like Bettelheim's famous assertions that autism is the fault of "refrigerator moms" not neurology.
I'm sorry if I was less than considerate in my response.
Alex, I don't know him. Maybe he just wanted to give unfortunate people like me hope. And then there are those pompous psychiatrists he may have been tweeking...
Posted by alexandra_k on October 14, 2006, at 10:11:21
In reply to Re: Request Problems in Living Board » zazenducky, posted by Toph on October 14, 2006, at 9:35:12
Szasz has a large body of work so it can be a bit tricky to figure what he is saying... I most certainly haven't read all of his work, but I have read some of it. I've also read some fairly good summaries of his work from people I trust. I think... He is misrepresented a lot...
> First, I am mentally ill as I stated above
It all hinges on what you mean by 'mentally ill' really. See, Szasz doesn't believe in mental illness (except as a metaphor) BUT (and this bit is important) he believes in NEUROLOGICAL illness alright. He would grant you NEUROLOGICAL illness, he just wouldn't like to call it 'mental'.
> as much as I wanted to believe that just the right talk therapy would end the repeated interruptions in my functioning.
I don't think he advocates talk therapy...
> like Szasz, he believed that I needed no medications as my parents were competely at fault for my "adjustment" problem.
I thought Szasz was alright with the notion that some people with neurological illnesses are helped by medication... I'm not sure he blames parents or believes in 'adjustment problems'.
> Szasz' theories resonate with me like Bettelheim's famous assertions that autism is the fault of "refrigerator moms" not neurology.
I'm not sure that Szasz would say that either... But... He has a huge body of work so who knows...
I think...
He has been misrepresented rather.
Best I can figure... He has some jolly good arguments for patients rights. Patients rights along the lines of the right to refuse treatment. Or if that is overridden it should be overridden by a JUDGE not by a PSYCHIATRIST.
Posted by Toph on October 14, 2006, at 18:14:44
In reply to Re: Request Problems in Living Board » Toph, posted by alexandra_k on October 14, 2006, at 10:11:21
I am not a Szazsologist, Alex , but I would like to respond to a couple things you wrote.
>
> > First, I am mentally ill as I stated above
>
> It all hinges on what you mean by 'mentally ill' really. See, Szasz doesn't believe in mental illness (except as a metaphor) BUT (and this bit is important) he believes in NEUROLOGICAL illness alright. He would grant you NEUROLOGICAL illness, he just wouldn't like to call it 'mental'.
>This is semantics but if I have a neurological disorder, which I do, I think, then one is referring to the mechanics of my illness. If I have a mental illness, which I do, I think, then one is referring to symptomatology of my illness for it affects my mentation and mood.
> > as much as I wanted to believe that just the right talk therapy would end the repeated interruptions in my functioning.
>
> I don't think he advocates talk therapy...
>I was just saying here that I could not accept my mental defect and hoped that psychotherapy would cure me.
> > like Szasz, he believed that I needed no medications as my parents were competely at fault for my "adjustment" problem.
>
> I thought Szasz was alright with the notion that some people with neurological illnesses are helped by medication... I'm not sure he blames parents or believes in 'adjustment problems'.
>I read more carefully some of his ideas and I think you are right and I misquoted him in this regard.
>
> Best I can figure... He has some jolly good arguments for patients rights. Patients rights along the lines of the right to refuse treatment. Or if that is overridden it should be overridden by a JUDGE not by a PSYCHIATRIST.
>
>In several manic states I attempted to contest my involutary commitments only to be convinced at the last minute somehow by a clever social worker to sign a voluntary admission before facing a judge. As a voluntary I avoided the legal ramifications of a fomal mental commitment (permanent record, loss of rights, etc.) My history with psychosis and the mental health system is extensive. In the main I feel that I have been very fortunate that I was treated mostly compassionately and effectively. I sometimes shudder to think what the outcome for me would have been if I had lived a hundred years ago.
Anyway, I apologize if I overreacted.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 15, 2006, at 4:23:45
In reply to Re: Request Problems in Living Board » alexandra_k, posted by Toph on October 14, 2006, at 18:14:44
> This is semantics but if I have a neurological disorder, which I do, I think, then one is referring to the mechanics of my illness. If I have a mental illness, which I do, I think, then one is referring to symptomatology of my illness for it affects my mentation and mood.
There are neurological disorders like... The agnosias which involve 'mental' symptoms like memory problems. They aren't typically considered 'mental' disorders, however, they are typically considered 'neurological' disorders. His line is basically that what are currently referred to as 'mental disorders' are either neurological disorders OR they are judgements that the person is not in accordance with social norms, that their behaviour is socially undesirable and the like.
He uses his terms a little funny... That is why it is hard to understand what he is saying. Basically, his argument is a little like this:
1) Mental disorders are diseases of the mind.
2) There isn't any such thing as mind.
________________________________________________
C) There aren't any such thing sas mental disorders.Also:
1) 'Disease' ONLY refers to BODILY disease BY DEFINITION
2) 'mind' is not 'body' BY DEFINITION
_____________________________________________________
C) There is no such thing as mental disease.He grants *physical* (including neurological or brain disorders). He is just an eliminativist about the mind. He can allow that many symptoms that we consider indicate mental illness actually indicate neurological illness. Given that the mind somehow or other fairly much just is the brain that is precisely what you would expect in fact.
> I read more carefully some of his ideas and I think you are right and I misquoted him in this regard.He is bloody hard to understand. I've probably misrepresented him...
> In several manic states I attempted to contest my involutary commitments only to be convinced at the last minute somehow by a clever social worker to sign a voluntary admission before facing a judge. As a voluntary I avoided the legal ramifications of a fomal mental commitment (permanent record, loss of rights, etc.) My history with psychosis and the mental health system is extensive. In the main I feel that I have been very fortunate that I was treated mostly compassionately and effectively. I sometimes shudder to think what the outcome for me would have been if I had lived a hundred years ago.
Yeah. He likes to harp on about the Marxists in Russia who were diagnosed with sluggish schizophrenia and detained against their will drugged off their faces in mental institutions. Or the slaves who were diagnosed with drapetomania (which is when a slave tries to run from his/her master) or masturbatory disorder (clearly that one is a mental disorder lol). He focuses on the abuses of psychiatry in order to advocate for patients rights...
But his being an eliminativist about the mind doesn't really help his cause...
Then the scientologists try and use him to support their cause (groan) and well it goes from bad to worse...
I've been reading stuff that tries to carve a middle way between the social constructionists and the biological reductionists. He isn't so bad... But I'm probably interpreting him charitably. Possibly... Too charitably...
Posted by Toph on October 15, 2006, at 12:10:56
In reply to Re: Request Problems in Living Board, posted by alexandra_k on October 15, 2006, at 4:23:45
I love your pursuit of the essence of things Alex. I wish I were a scholar about something.
Masturbatory disorder? Now there's an affliction about which I have first hand knowledge. At least I'll conceed the mythology about this mental illness. ; )
Posted by zazenducky on October 15, 2006, at 15:00:06
In reply to Re: Request Problems in Living Board » alexandra_k, posted by Toph on October 15, 2006, at 12:10:56
Dear Visa Leave me alone I was ill and therefore not responsible.
Dear bankruptcy court I was ill. I have rights. It wasn't my fault. Leave me alone.
Dear credit bureau I was ill . Restore my credit rating. I need to buy pharmaceuticals.
Posted by zazenducky on October 15, 2006, at 15:26:44
In reply to Re: Request Problems in Living Board, posted by alexandra_k on October 15, 2006, at 4:23:45
I looked that up in wiki and though I am not mentally ill I am a wee bit brainfuzzled. How can he believe in free will and choices if he doesn't believe in a mind? And how did he come up with that theory if he doesn't have a mind?
Why could he not believe in mind that was not body (even if it was the product of body and the interactions of that body) and so not susceptible to being ill by his definition? So the same symptoms could be the result of decisions or values or choice or chance-there's just no way to tell.
American Heritage Stedman's Medical Dictionary - C
mind (mnd)
n.The human consciousness that originates in the brain and is manifested especially in thought, perception, emotion, will, memory, and imagination.
The collective conscious and unconscious processes in a sentient organism that direct and influence mental and physical behavior.
Posted by Toph on October 15, 2006, at 15:49:05
In reply to Compulsive shopping a mental illness?, posted by zazenducky on October 15, 2006, at 15:00:06
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 16, 2006, at 11:34:40
In reply to No, but your checkbook is unbalanced : ) (nm) » zazenducky, posted by Toph on October 15, 2006, at 15:49:05
This is the end of the thread.
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