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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 31. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on March 16, 2008, at 10:17:21
Not because I want to defend Dr. Bob, but because I have always cared about Babble.
I asked the question:
"Is it scarier to think that he's experimenting and watching? Or that he's not watching at all, and is tending to other areas of his life?"
It's not one that I came up with on my own. It's one that Dr. Bob asked me a long time ago. I may not have even been a deputy yet. And it made me realize how very scary it was to think of him not being around, reading posts, and being hands on involved in the site.
That was long ago, and his role was different now than then. And I think to some extent, different posters are bringing different experiences to Babble, and we may not be speaking in ways that appeal to the experiences of others.
Some people have been around long enough to remember when Dr. Bob read every post. Back when there were no deputies, or when deputies played a very limited role. Some people have been here short enough a time to know Babble only as it is now.
I could be wrong, but I see the historical progress as something like this.
At one time Dr. Bob interacted with the board as a person and a professional. This was before my time.
During much of my time here, Dr. Bob would at least scan most or many posts on every board. You could see him in the wee hours, going through the board, redirecting, giving Please Be Civils. Deputies weren't always around, and once they were they only intervened in very limited circumstances. Dr. Bob provided the frame that led to a safe, supportive, environment.
Then more recently, Dr. Bob no longer reads every post. He has deputies take a far more active role in the board. Deputies never have read every post on every board. But if deputies see something, or if something is reported to them either on Admin before the notify administrators function, or by notification otherwise, deputies acted in accordance with the guidelines laid down by Dr. Bob. If a single deputy thought something wasn't clear, they asked other deputies, and if it wasn't clear to deputies, they asked Dr. Bob. Dr. Bob also exercised the right to override deputies, and did so. He also provided guidance as to his wishes. Which is why, yes, deputies have communications channels with him that the board doesn't have. Given the role he expected us to play it was necessary. At this point I think Dr. Bob conceived of it as deputies providing the frame that led to a safe, supportive, environment. And Dr. Bob providing support on a step once removed.
Perhaps I resisted this idea. And maybe I didn't understand that posters may have started to feel that way too? So that my resignation as deputy felt somewhat akin to what Dr. Bob's absences from the board used to feel when he was here every day or every few days?
If I missed that, I'm sorry. I still think of Dr. Bob as providing the frame for a safe and supportive Babble. And I still think that the presence or absence of any one deputy won't affect the safety and security of Babble. Babble will go on as long as Dr. Bob is here to provide the overarching framework.
I suppose I see Dr. Bob as trying to move in a direction one step further. He's trying to have the posters themselves provide the frame that leads to a safe, supportive environment on Babble. And deputies to play the role of providing the frame for posters to do that. Which would, I suppose, put him another step back. Have his level of support... Hmmm... I'm trying to think of architectural terms here, and unfortunately I don't know them. But it would go something like...
At one time Dr. Bob was the sole frame holding up the safety and security of Babble.
At the current time, the deputies are asked to be the more immediate support (certainly not as much so as Dr. Bob once was). With Dr. Bob providing a level of support over that.
In the future, Dr. Bob would like the posters themselves, the community of Babble, to provide the immediate level of framework, with deputies providing an intermediate framework, and Dr. Bob providing an overarching support.
Like different levels of support in an architectural project.
I think that if we stop and think about the varying expectations and beliefs about Dr. Bob's involvement, it's easy to see how we can misunderstand each other.
I'm not trying to defend Dr. Bob. I will never think the board is as well supported in any other way as it was when Dr. Bob was involved intimately. I can understand the anger involved with his no longer being as involved. I can understand, and have experienced myself, how that can be seen as abandonment.
But I am aware that he has already stepped back. Perhaps it is not as obvious on board as I thought it was, and others don't understand that he now acts as more support to the supports. (Is that a bulwark or something?). I have been angry and gotten over this a long time ago. And because I value Babble and Babblers, I have chosen to stay involved because I have felt that the better outweighs the bitter in this. Others have concluded differently, and that's fine. Our internal calibration of weights and balances for what is and isn't valuable or unacceptable differs from person to person, and rightly so.
Does Dr. Bob convey any of this well? No. Clearly he does not. I'm not even sure that I got it right this time, and await for his correction as need be. But not with baited breath. Because he'll come when he feels he can. I have no idea how he calibrates that.
Dr. Bob isn't experimenting. I almost wish he were. In answering that long ago question, I know where my feelings lie. I feel safer thinking he's involved and manipulating than thinking he isn't around on a day to day basis.
Posted by Dinah on March 16, 2008, at 10:26:41
In reply to Let me try again, posted by Dinah on March 16, 2008, at 10:17:21
If I understand correctly, people don't want explanations from me? They want them from Dr. Bob?
I forgot that for the moment.
I didn't mean to be insensitive to that.
Posted by SLS on March 16, 2008, at 12:19:42
In reply to Wait. Never mind., posted by Dinah on March 16, 2008, at 10:26:41
> If I understand correctly, people don't want explanations from me? They want them from Dr. Bob?
>
> I forgot that for the moment.
>
> I didn't mean to be insensitive to that.You can't please them all. I'm happy you chose to comment further on the issue. However, I don't think you should feel obligated to make such comments. You have take on a very difficult job with the responsibilities to help moderate this website. I find you to be very deliberative in the way you decide to intervene during a problematic discourse. I don't think you need to announce what you consider to be your foibles and weaknesses (should there be any). I, for one, do not think it is advisable to disclose too much of the details of your treatment. There is no requirement that you make an effort to be transparent.
Once again, I lecture. This not really an appealing post. Still...
- Scott
Posted by Dinah on March 16, 2008, at 14:17:09
In reply to Re: Wait. Never mind. » Dinah, posted by SLS on March 16, 2008, at 12:19:42
Well, if you don't mind my posting my impressions, what did you think of them?
As to the other, I've always adamantly insisted on remaining a poster who also is a deputy, rather than a deputy who posts. And it's not an easy thing to do. I have no wish to become Oz, like Dr. Bob.
It's a hard line to maintain, and I am sure I don't always do it perfectly.
But what do you think of the idea I had about the evolution of Administration? I confess it results from from walking around the issue with the idea of gaining a new perspective that fits the circumstances better.
Or as my husband calls it "Dinah in the bath" after Archimedes in the bath? Gaining enlightenment and running naked through the town shouting "Eureka!!!" when he figured out how to use water displacement to figure out density?
Or on the other hand, I might just be all wet. :)
Posted by KAL44 on March 17, 2008, at 0:05:32
In reply to Wait. Never mind., posted by Dinah on March 16, 2008, at 10:26:41
No don't say never mind. Your explanation was very good and helped explain things. I don't know if you are also referring to the new rules in the sense of deputies or not. I may be confused, but your explanation of Dr. Bob's no response and greater absense makes perfect sense. For me, I wanted to know what the new rule is so I don't break it.
Posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on March 17, 2008, at 12:42:54
In reply to Let me try again, posted by Dinah on March 16, 2008, at 10:17:21
Dinah...I appreciate what you do..honestly, but you really don't have to invest so much and even try so hard. I don't mean that in a negative way towards you. I just mean that I see you put in a massive investment of your time and thought, and in this electronic world, it's all here-today, gone-tomorrow. This place ain't worth that much. I say that as one of the board 'veterans' like you and others. Taking care of yourself is most important.
Best,
Jay
Posted by Dinah on March 17, 2008, at 17:37:44
In reply to Re: Let me try again.. » Dinah, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on March 17, 2008, at 12:42:54
Well, I think this place is worth an awful lot.
But perhaps you overestimate my investment of time. I have a husband, child, dogs, and a sometimes stressful job. A lot of times I work at home, so I'm around and available. Not just for Babble of course, but for my husband, child, and dogs. And myself. :)
But that doesn't mean I'm necessarily *here* at Babble. It's more that I can come to Babble if need be.
Thanks for being concerned, Jay.
Posted by Dinah on March 17, 2008, at 17:58:50
In reply to Re: Wait. Never mind. » Dinah, posted by KAL44 on March 17, 2008, at 0:05:32
There are no new civility rules, or any sort of new rules really. Not for posters.
Dr. Bob just wanted to encourage non-deputy posters to shoulder more of the responsibility for maintaining the civility of the site by asking deputies to leave things alone unless someone reports something through the notification function.
It hasn't actually gone into effect, although since deputies are aware of his preferences, there might be a tendency in that direction.
If anything, it might lead to laxer enforcement of the existing civility guidelines, or perhaps more sporadic and unequal enforcement, at least in my nevertobehumble opinion.
Posted by moonlightsonata2 on March 17, 2008, at 19:48:18
In reply to Re: Wait. Never mind. » KAL44, posted by Dinah on March 17, 2008, at 17:58:50
So it that all that Dr. Bob changed (or suggested)???? Is that what all this fuss has been about??? I don't understand what the big deal is. What upset all the posters so badly....simply that Bob suggested a very MINOR change of policy....and one that hasn't even been enforced yet?
How can one such little minor thing disturb so many people?
People have been posting that they're losing sleep, that they spend entire hours with their therapists talking about how this site is falling apart, etc.....and all for this! It seems like a non-issue.
I mean, if Bob wanted to change the color of the font on one of the pages, that would've been a bigger deal! Would that, then , have driven members to want to jump off bridges? Come on ya'll, aren't we supposed to be adults here???
Posted by Toph on March 17, 2008, at 20:10:00
In reply to Let me try again, posted by Dinah on March 16, 2008, at 10:17:21
> In the future, Dr. Bob would like the posters themselves, the community of Babble, to provide the immediate level of framework, with deputies providing an intermediate framework, and Dr. Bob providing an overarching support...
>I have a couple reactions to this, although I think people are pretty sick of what I have to say by now.
I like the idea. It's radical - self policing. It's far less rigid than every detected infraction receiving a punishment based on some crazy formula. If nobody's offended (or nobody cares) - no harm, no foul. If there's uneven justice - then it's like American jurisprudence where any number of factors mitigate the sanction including character witnesses, juries identifying with the accused, judges biases, plea barganing, hell I'm no lawyer but 10 people commiting the same crime can get ten different legal reactions.
The peoplem is it may not work for whatever reason. Bob has recinded rules, I think, or let them lapse, or dropped boards. Evolution can go forward and back.
Again, my problem is that a change of this magnitude should at the very least involve public discourse. After the cat got out of the bag and everyone freaked, if he was at all invested in these changes, as "the overarching support" that you claim Bob is, why the hell didn't he come explain and support the concept? Or is this his way of sabbotaging the plan before its even instituted?
I'm sorry to keep ranting about Bob, but the over arching support that was the foundation of this nice building looks pretty feeble to me right now.
Posted by moonlightsonata2 on March 17, 2008, at 20:25:57
In reply to try again » Dinah, posted by Toph on March 17, 2008, at 20:10:00
This board was created by Dr. Bob. He designed the concept. He envisioned how it should work. It's his board. He should do what he pleases with it.
We are all free entities. We can take it or leave it. If we don't like certain policy changes, we can chose not to post. We can get support elsewhere.
Why can't everyone understand that it's his board, and he can do what he likes with it. He doesn't have to answer to anyone of us. If you don't like it, you can chose to leave. I don't get why everyone is demanding a voice in this.
If you had a favorite hotel...and the owner decided to paint the rooms pink, and you hated pink, it's not up to you to tell the owner to repaint them. You can chose not to stay at the hotel anymore. Or you can realize that the color of the walls really doesn't matter that much, and that there are more important things (like reasonable prices, hospitality, safety, a warm bed) and just get over the pink walls.
Same with this board. It's not our decision how it should be run. But if we dont' like it, we can leave. Otherwise, we should just mind our owm business.
Posted by Toph on March 17, 2008, at 20:47:48
In reply to Re: try again, posted by moonlightsonata2 on March 17, 2008, at 20:25:57
What
Posted by Dinah on March 17, 2008, at 21:33:03
In reply to try again » Dinah, posted by Toph on March 17, 2008, at 20:10:00
Well, for what it's worth, I don't think self policing is all that unusual on the internet. There are lots of places that seem to have that.
I like Babble better.
I'm sure it's a matter of taste, and certainly I think that valid points could be made in either direction.
Posted by Dinah on March 17, 2008, at 21:39:14
In reply to try again » Dinah, posted by Toph on March 17, 2008, at 20:10:00
And I have no idea why Dr. Bob isn't available to post, or whether he planned to present the idea, or why he isn't supporting it. Or how long it will be before he does feel available to post.
Moreover, while he gave me permission to explain what was going on, I'm not entirely sure he meant me to say what I said.
Posted by KAL44 on March 17, 2008, at 21:52:01
In reply to Re: Wait. Never mind. » KAL44, posted by Dinah on March 17, 2008, at 17:58:50
Okay now I understand. You have explained it all very well. Thanks. I am not going to worry any more about it then. Thanks.
Posted by KAL44 on March 17, 2008, at 21:53:46
In reply to Re: Wait. Never mind., posted by moonlightsonata2 on March 17, 2008, at 19:48:18
Well I thought that given what a number of people posted that the "change" was something other than what it is, and so now I know what it it, and it isn't a big deal to me now.
Posted by twinleaf on March 17, 2008, at 23:25:09
In reply to Re: Wait. Never mind. » KAL44, posted by Dinah on March 17, 2008, at 17:58:50
What was it about encouraging posters to make the initial notifications about civility infractions that caused you to seriously consider resigning as a Deputy?
Posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on March 17, 2008, at 23:30:32
In reply to Re: Let me try again.. » Jay_Bravest_Face, posted by Dinah on March 17, 2008, at 17:37:44
> Well, I think this place is worth an awful lot.
>
> But perhaps you overestimate my investment of time. I have a husband, child, dogs, and a sometimes stressful job. A lot of times I work at home, so I'm around and available. Not just for Babble of course, but for my husband, child, and dogs. And myself. :)
>
> But that doesn't mean I'm necessarily *here* at Babble. It's more that I can come to Babble if need be.
>
> Thanks for being concerned, Jay.Well, let me just say I offer you my support Dinah. I know it is not much, but being here for awhile, I have seen what you and others have gone through. We all seem to have our "phases",(not saying you are going through a 'phase') as I remember well going through my *rebel* phase. I still believe some of what I said, minus all of the anger I had at the time.
Things will work themselves out, one way or another. These 'issues', I think, will *always* be with the board. I hope, honestly of course, for the best.
Sincerely,
Jay :-)
Posted by Dinah on March 17, 2008, at 23:44:19
In reply to the proposed new notification guidelines » Dinah, posted by twinleaf on March 17, 2008, at 23:25:09
It was being told that any notifications made by deputies or ex-deputies would not be acted upon that made me feel like I needed to leave, Twinleaf.
Given my history with nonresponsive adults in authority who did not do what they should have in response to my "reports", I knew that I could not handle being placed in such a similar position. It would have been more pressure and more triggering than I could tolerate.
I made it clear all along that it was *my* issue, not anything Dr. Bob did.
I'm not really going to debate whether I *should* be able to handle those circumstances. I know myself well enough to know that I can't.
I stand by that. And I'm not going to apologize for making the decision that it wasn't healthy for me to stay under those conditions.
Posted by Dinah on March 17, 2008, at 23:52:58
In reply to Re: Let me try again.. » Dinah, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on March 17, 2008, at 23:30:32
Posted by twinleaf on March 18, 2008, at 0:17:22
In reply to Re: the proposed new notification guidelines » twinleaf, posted by Dinah on March 17, 2008, at 23:44:19
Oh, O.K. Thanks for explaining that. It makes perfect sense if the new plan included dealing only with notifications from board members and not with ones from deputies. The proposed change itself seemed so benign that I couldn't imagine what bothered you about it. I didn't know about the part that would have excluded deputies from notifying- I think that would be very difficult and frustrating for anyone acting as a deputy.
If Bob wants to make this change, it would seem to be all right as long as both board members and deputies can make notifications. I hope we eventually get back to at least some occasional communication with Bob. It's needed in order to make plans for the APA meeting, and for discussion of rule changes and improvements such as the current one.
I will continue to think that it would have been much better for Bob to have acknowledged the recent turmoil here. We have lost some wonderful posters, and many posters who are still here are no longer writing the fascinating, intimate posts which made Babble so special and helpful. There was also a shocking increase in angry, hostile posting all through the boards, with ones directed towards a long-time poster on Medication being perhaps the most extreme and disturbing. At times like this, just a brief word, conveying understanding and support, would have gone a long way to minimize the damage. It would help even now.
Posted by SLS on March 18, 2008, at 6:42:32
In reply to Re: » moonlightsonata2, posted by Toph on March 17, 2008, at 20:47:48
> What
What, what?
- Scott
Posted by Toph on March 18, 2008, at 7:04:56
In reply to Re: » Toph, posted by SLS on March 18, 2008, at 6:42:32
What time is it?
Posted by Toph on March 18, 2008, at 7:09:37
In reply to Re: Wait. Never mind. » Dinah, posted by KAL44 on March 17, 2008, at 21:52:01
> Okay now I understand. You have explained it all very well. Thanks. I am not going to worry any more about it then. Thanks.
I'm glad you are relieved, KAL. For me, it was never about the changes. I'm willing to give anything a try to keep people here. It's Bob's indifference after we know he was notified about all the angst that got me into Katrina mode.
Posted by SLS on March 18, 2008, at 7:43:21
In reply to Re: » SLS, posted by Toph on March 18, 2008, at 7:04:56
> > > > "This board was created by Dr. Bob. He designed the concept. He envisioned how it should work. It's his board. He should do what he pleases with it.
We are all free entities. We can take it or leave it. If we don't like certain policy changes, we can chose not to post. We can get support elsewhere.
Why can't everyone understand that it's his board, and he can do what he likes with it. He doesn't have to answer to anyone of us. If you don't like it, you can chose to leave. I don't get why everyone is demanding a voice in this.
If you had a favorite hotel...and the owner decided to paint the rooms pink, and you hated pink, it's not up to you to tell the owner to repaint them. You can chose not to stay at the hotel anymore. Or you can realize that the color of the walls really doesn't matter that much, and that there are more important things (like reasonable prices, hospitality, safety, a warm bed) and just get over the pink walls.
Same with this board. It's not our decision how it should be run. But if we dont' like it, we can leave. Otherwise, we should just mind our owm business."
> > > what
> > What, what?
> What time is it?
Time to remain civil to moonlightsonata2.
What was your question for this person? I will assume to call it a question, despite the lack of punctuation.
So, what, what?
- Scott
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