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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by AbbieNormal on June 12, 2008, at 19:25:10
From The Centers for Disease Control on suicide clusters:
"Community spokespersons should avoid glorifying decedents or sensationalizing their deaths in any way (9). To do so might increase the likelihood that someone who identifies with the decedents or who is having suicidal thoughts will also attempt suicide, so as to be similarly glorified or to receive similar positive attention. One community that had had several suicides among high school students installed a "memorial bench" on the school grounds, with the names of the suicide victims engraved on the bench. Although this gesture was undoubtedly intended to demonstrate sincere compassion, such a practice is potentially very dangerous."
Bob Id like to ask that you add a statement to the Babble rules regarding conversations about suicide. Currently all that exists is this Please don't be sarcastic, treat injury or death lightly, suggest that others harm (or use this site to exchange information that could be used to harm) themselves or others.
I think you should add a statement that clearly says that it is uncivil to make positive statements about the act of suicide (such as glorifying suicide) or about the suicidal actions of persons who commit/attempt suicide.
I also think having Slinkys picture on Babble is really sweet but its *exactly* what the CDC says is very dangerous.
Abbie
Posted by Gabbee on June 13, 2008, at 0:55:47
In reply to Suicide Clusters - Rule Addition Request, posted by AbbieNormal on June 12, 2008, at 19:25:10
That's tricky.
I feel we lost Slinky to this disease and because of the lack of awareness, and improper treatment of those with depression. She's a soldier we lost to the fight.
We've not had a suicide cluster here at Babble I don't think. I know it happens in High Schools, and when famous people take their lives.I often don't agree with what
conclusons are derived by professionals regarding suicide. I'm not sure I'm in agreement here.It was fashion a few years ago to have high school stuends view the graphic detail of suicide and hear the families speak of their devastation.
They assumed that would disuade some who may have had thoughts of taking their lives. What they failed to consider is that some people want to hurt those close to them, and they saw an effective way to do it.
Minds process information differently, suicide is everywhere, and I hate to think of adding one more thing that *may* be the straw
But if it is, I think it would have been found somewhere.If it made no difference, I'd say take away all that we know might encourage the idea.
But it does make a difference. I want a picture of Slinky here because for me, and that means there are others; it's a reminder of who we've lost, brilliant minds and good hearts. It's why I have a purpose to keep on fighting and making a contribution, small as it may be, to the awareness that this is a deadly disease.
Those minds are needed here among us.I have found solidarity with people who are vowing to struggle no matter how tantalizing the thought can become.
To not have her pain acknowledged, and to not see the person behind it, would be unspeakably upsetting to me, for so many reasons I can't list them all.
Posted by Gabbee on June 13, 2008, at 1:05:10
In reply to Suicide Clusters - Rule Addition Request, posted by AbbieNormal on June 12, 2008, at 19:25:10
I have the utmost respect for you, especially regarding this topic. I wouldn't even question it if it didn't touch me so profoundly. It's just adding another view, not disagreement.
Posted by AbbieNormal on June 13, 2008, at 6:41:35
In reply to Re: Suicide Clusters - Rule Addition Request p.s » AbbieNormal, posted by Gabbee on June 13, 2008, at 1:05:10
(((G))) - Can you tell me how you feel just about this part of the post?
"I think you should add a statement that clearly says that it is uncivil to make positive statements about the ACT of suicide (such as glorifying suicide) or about the suicidal ACTIONS of persons who commit/attempt suicide. "
That really is the important piece to me.
Hugs, Abbie
Posted by Mc Comfortable on June 13, 2008, at 8:43:43
In reply to Re: Suicide Clusters - Rule Addition Request p.s, posted by AbbieNormal on June 13, 2008, at 6:41:35
Hi Abbie,
I understand the concern and it has discussed in the Suicide Survivors support group I attend - a group for friends and family and such who have had a loved one die by suicide. I can only approach it from that angle, which may be slanted. From those at a grieving standpoint, it is a real fear that their loved ones will be remembered for how they died rather than how they lived. The purpose of memoralizing is important to some to accent a life not a death. Most loved ones have the "usual" needs to memorialize a person just as is done if the the death did not happened due to suicide. In addition, they certain don't want others to experience what they are challenged with.
To date, in my community we have not experienced any suicides post another than can be attributed and connected. This doesn't mean it doesn't happen obviously.
I understand this is a mental health forum but I think, to a big degree, the needs for rememberance are there.
From a clinical research standpoint I do try and understand but it's difficult given my real life experiences.
Best,
Mc
Posted by Tabitha on June 13, 2008, at 13:17:11
In reply to Suicide Clusters - Rule Addition Request, posted by AbbieNormal on June 12, 2008, at 19:25:10
We're not a bunch of teenagers here who might follow the latest fad. We're mostly adults who've struggled with depression, suicidal thoughts, and other symptoms for years. The reaction to suicides here hasn't been "oh cool, she got a lot of nice things said about her", it's been grief, hearbreak, and a reminder of the most horrible outcome possible for these illnesses. Sad as it is, I think such a reminder can be a good thing for the survivors, not only to help us process our grief, but as a prompt to take a look at our own mental health care, or the larger issue of availability of care.
And I'd personally find it unbearable to be unable to memorialize someone because of the method of their death. They've died after a long struggle with a very real illness and they don't deserve any stigma added to that.
Posted by elbee on June 13, 2008, at 13:21:07
In reply to Suicide Clusters - Rule Addition Request, posted by AbbieNormal on June 12, 2008, at 19:25:10
Where is slinky's picture?
Posted by ClearSkies on June 13, 2008, at 13:57:41
In reply to Re: Suicide Clusters - Rule Addition Request, posted by elbee on June 13, 2008, at 13:21:07
> Where is slinky's picture?
I believe that the shark illustration at the top of the page was done by Slinky.
CS
Posted by AbbieNormal on June 13, 2008, at 17:47:17
In reply to Re: Suicide Clusters - Rule Addition Request p.s, posted by AbbieNormal on June 13, 2008, at 6:41:35
Try to ignore the memorializing issue for a moment and just consider this one issue:
"I think you should add a statement that clearly says that it is uncivil to make positive statements about the ACT of suicide (such as glorifying suicide) or about the suicidal ACTIONS of persons who commit/attempt suicide. "
These are two separate issues. I should have made two posts.
Abbie
Posted by AbbieNormal on June 13, 2008, at 17:51:06
In reply to Re: Suicide Clusters - » AbbieNormal, posted by Mc Comfortable on June 13, 2008, at 8:43:43
Don't assume I come only from a clinical standpoint on this issue. I wouldn't feel so strongly about this topic if I wasn't also a survivor.
Abbie
Posted by Mc Comfortable on June 13, 2008, at 18:47:19
In reply to Re: Suicide Clusters - » Mc Comfortable, posted by AbbieNormal on June 13, 2008, at 17:51:06
> Don't assume I come only from a clinical standpoint on this issue.
I wasn't actually. I'm sorry it may have felt that way to you.
I believe you have a point that the guidelines may not address the specifics to the degree they should seeing as suicidal posts are allowed here. The guidelines do appear to be a bit loose on that. I guess I don't not "get" how posting an artwork done by a poster who has recently died by suicide appears to glorify.
Posted by AbbieNormal on June 13, 2008, at 19:23:13
In reply to Re: Suicide Clusters - » AbbieNormal, posted by Mc Comfortable on June 13, 2008, at 18:47:19
I see your point. I should have made 2 separate posts.
1) rule change request regarding talk about ACTS of suicide
2) I know this is unpopular, and I'm OK with that. I'm not personally crazy about the picture being posted. For several reasons.
a) Mostly because it makes me cry so damn much. I was late for work the day it was posted.
b) The Memorial page already exists. That seems to be a great place to remember people. It's where Slinky wanted to see Kid A. And now she will be by his side. Owie owie owie.
c) we do have teens here, and other impressionable people. Suicide contagion exists.I'm so very proud of myself for being OK with disagreement on this topic. :-)
I'd REALLY like feedback on #1 above.
Abbie
Posted by Mc Comfortable on June 13, 2008, at 19:40:24
In reply to Re: Suicide Clusters -, posted by AbbieNormal on June 13, 2008, at 19:23:13
> I'm so very proud of myself for being OK with disagreement on this topic. :-)
>
And you should be proud. One of the more difficult things for me to keep in check is my tendency to try to convince rather than trying to see where others are coming from - I'm a work in progress but I do try. Not that what I say matters : ) but it is okay for you to have the feelings and opinions you have. I know you know that but maybe it bears repeating from a stranger. : )The topic is dicey, touchy, etc. and people are probably going to have strong views but the discussion is worthwhile, imo, given the allowances on the boards.
Posted by Gabbee on June 13, 2008, at 19:58:29
In reply to Re: Suicide Clusters - » AbbieNormal, posted by Mc Comfortable on June 13, 2008, at 18:47:19
Hmm..
I've honestly never really seen a post here that seemed to glorify suicide. A few silly ones but they didn't do anything but incite well rounded discussion.I agree with Tabitha that were not a bunch of teenagers who, in wanting a romantic tragedy, seem to think they'll have it both ways, die and also get to see the effect it has on people who were close to them. I'm excluding obviously more troubled teenagers.
Why do I think someone should be allowed to say something that doesn't put it in an entirely negative light? Becuase it invites discussion, perhaps they will see alternate points in what people have to say.
It's too Big Brother to me, to not be allowed to say anything but that suicide is unnaceptable
It's mental illness,
I don't get that:
"Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem, or that it's when your coping capacity is ovewhelmed by circumstance.
That's not been true for me.
I've thought sometimes damn, I wish I didn't have to go through this "loss" transition, whatever"
but it's never been what's made me seriously conemplate suicide
Mine come from a desperate need to escape gut wrenching fear and sadness that arrives out of nowhere, obliterates anything good and renders me unable to function in the most basic of jobs.
That talk is for people who think "I lost my job" I want to end it all, or my girlfriend dumped me I want to die.
Depression/comorbid disorders are NOT a temporary problem for most of us here.
The combination of sh*tty help, playing psychiatry roulette / abuse from the system,/stigmatization by Dr's when you actually have a physical problem and they won't consider its' anything but your " head illness" talking.Meds that can mess up your head, your body and the Shrinks who make you feel it's your fault.
The loss of self.. in all this.The depression convincing you that you're a drain on everyone around you especially if you can't work
And that's not even the mental illness, that's the trying to get BETTER part.In the words of Andrew Solomon, Depression *can* make your life as terrible as the depression made you think it was" Magical help isn't out there for everyone, support isn't out there for everyone.
Some people don't want any more support.. they want a semblance of a normal life. or something, on thing that they that they can count on and when you don't even know why you're feeling what you do, it's a little unsettling.. to say the least.
I'd never want to say anything good about suicide after a run of isolated bad luck, breaks, or "my life isn't what I thought it would be"
I wouldn't and I don't think most people do.I do empathize with those though who see it's the last bit of control they have.
It SUCKS to be one left behind But I still don't see it as a selfish act because we don't know what they were feeling, only how we feel and project our struggles that we've overcome onto them. "I did it, so can you" ..and idealize what or who they would be alive.
In some cases, I'm quite sure that a person taking their own life, even if they have family, was likely done to avert a greater tragedy and quite possibly an act of sacrifice.
My personal belief is that we stay alive for each other, and that we need to need to promote awareness.
But someone who can't do that anymore isn't weaker than I am.Isn't that what's always said?
"Depression is not about character weakness"
I don't think many suicides are either.Suicidal thinking in a depressed person, is no different than paranoia in a paranoid schizophrenic.
It's NOT a crime, it's an illness.My partner had a small stroke that doesn't even register on a brain scan. yet their are distinct
differences in his personality now. it isn't a tendency to suicidal thinking, but it easily could be inherent in someone else.I was on a med combination once that for three days had me in an unending ghoulish terror, impervious to support, words.. I won't bother trying to describe it.
I always think of that when I think that there are problaby some who feel that way every day and are yet told they're taking the easy way out if they take their life.
Bugger that.Spalding Grey wasn't suicidal until after until he had facial surgery he was in a terrible car crash.
Something changed biologically during that surgery.
And I know I never wouldn't have made it through.
Never- it was otherworldy. And to anyone who expected me too, you don't get it. Not that, you don't.People need heartfelt hope to survive, not hope thats handed to them, when that hope doesn't exist, and what you're experiencing is a repeated soul holocaust caused by..god knows what
I am not going to stigmatize or call selfish or someone who decides that there's only one way out of that pain.
No I don't want suicide romanticized, but I want it acknowledged that for the most part these people have fought and struggled, more than anyone should ever have to, and I think it's their right. And it's their due, to be seen as someone who fought and contributed through their pain, and not hidden away as someone who did
"The wrong thing"
Posted by Gabbee on June 13, 2008, at 20:25:31
In reply to Re: Suicide Clusters - Long and .. disjointed, posted by Gabbee on June 13, 2008, at 19:58:29
That was a serious request.
I'm so absolutely lost on why the "Health prof people.. or whatever" think that acknowledging the talent or the gifts of a person who committed suicide is, "glorifying" or encouraging suicidal behaviour.
At this point, that thought is literally making me sick to my stomach.It seems (to me, and yes I'm open to views) appallingly dehumanizing, and ridulous "comittee thinking"
Is someone who's not an artist going to think "If I kill myself everyone will admire the art I didn't produce?"
Maybe someone will see it differently
"I don't want to give up on my talents.." and it will help them through.Should Percy Shelly's poetry be "unromanticized"
(how ironic)
Should they be buried in unmarked graves?Why is the assumption made by these "Health professionals" that any impression that is made is going to be one that encourages suicide?
The same people is mention people needing to see the pain left behind. How can one be done without the other? it makes no sense to me.
We're talking about our pain, but if we do we're apt to say good things because we miss the person, and then they're being "glorified"
What's up with that?
"Yeah, my guts are being ripped out, I'm devastated, I miss her so much, but I don't know why, she had no qualities that are particularly memorable to me"I'm not being flippant.
I don't get it.I'm all really kind of feeling patronized and
po'd and could use a little help understanding the rationale.
Posted by Gabbee on June 13, 2008, at 21:08:09
In reply to Re: Suicide Clusters - Rule Addition Request p.s, posted by AbbieNormal on June 13, 2008, at 6:41:35
> (((G))) - Can you tell me how you feel just about this part of the post?
>
I wish I could agree, but I just can't.
Unless I thought perhaps it was an issue here that had gotten out of hand. There's a huge leap to me between being empathetic and acknowledging possibilites and glorification.
I've never personally seen glorification of suicide, on Babble ever.To explain, i would think of glorification as
"I think think it was such a beautiful thing to do.."
Or Heck I can't even think of an exampleAnd I'd need a broader perspective of what exactly this rule would achieve.
> "I think you should add a statement that clearly says that it is uncivil to make positive statements about the ACT of suicide (such as glorifying suicide) or about the suicidal ACTIONS of persons who commit/attempt suicide. "
Posted by AbbieNormal on June 13, 2008, at 21:26:15
In reply to I'm really Sorry Abbie, posted by Gabbee on June 13, 2008, at 21:08:09
Posted by Gabbee on June 13, 2008, at 21:47:16
In reply to (((((((Gabbette)))))) (nm), posted by AbbieNormal on June 13, 2008, at 21:26:15
*sniff*
this is too hard right now.
Posted by Dinah on June 16, 2008, at 10:54:13
In reply to Suicide Clusters - Rule Addition Request, posted by AbbieNormal on June 12, 2008, at 19:25:10
I think it is definitely two issues.
Memorializing Slinky isn't to my mind a bad thing. Slinky was a member of the community for a long time and no matter how she died some of us will feel the need to commemorate her life. It matters, of course, how she died. It hurts me to think of her hurting so much. But no matter how she died, I'd want to remember her.
It's easy to think that we're all competent adults who understand these things. And certainly those of us posting on this thread are. But this is open to anyone. Adult, teen, whatever. People with issues that dovetail with this topic. This is the internet. You can't get anymore public than this. I realize that there are people who will take that to mean that suicide is a way to get people to remember you or to care about you or to hurt those who loved you. And I wish there was a polite way to say it isn't how Slinky died that made us love her. It was how she lived. That if you want people to care, the way to do it is to reach out to people, and to live a life that touches others. Just killing yourself is not the way to go about it. The result might well be far different from what a person imagines, even if they could somehow stay alive to see it.
I do think there is a danger on a board like Babble in making suicide seem like a legitimate and viable option. Yes, we can try to make distinctions. But those distinctions can be lost in the midst of depressive thinking. There are times when I would have grasped at anything positive said about suicide as a way of justifying the action. It seems as serious, if not more serious, an action as talking about suicide or death lightly or jokingly.
However, I can also see problems in enforcement. A person who is thinking of killing themselves would of course see it as a beneficial thing to others as well as themselves. That's part of the whole seductive power of the depressive thinking. And like some other things on Babble that are currently against the rules, I think maybe those things are best countered by other posters rather than enforced. I'd hate to sanction someone who is truly believing those things as they say them. Yet I'd also hate to see people who may be in a vulnerable state of mind be influenced by the positive things that might be said about suicide on board. And we might say that no one is that vulnerable, but I think there are times when I might have been. So I extend my own experience to think that others might be as well.
I don't know. On the one hand, there is the argument that this is best dealt with by other posters. On the other hand, I can see times when it would be more in keeping with the stated purposes of the board to keep a stance against suicide as a positive choice. And as a deputy, I can see the benefit of having the structure in place to be used if necessary, while not being forced to use it often or in every case. While Dr. Bob prefers globally applicable rules. And I can see his point of view since fairness has always been a major concern on Babble.
Posted by Gabbette on June 16, 2008, at 18:46:32
In reply to Re: Suicide Clusters - Rule Addition Request » AbbieNormal, posted by Dinah on June 16, 2008, at 10:54:13
Do you ever stop being so freaking awesome Dinah!
It's hard on this mere mortal.You are gifted. Thank you for approaching so thoroughly and with such reason and compassion.
It *almost* makes me think about taking dr bobs advice about waiting a while before posting.
Perhaps tomorrow.
Posted by Dinah on June 16, 2008, at 19:36:34
In reply to Re: Suicide Clusters - Rule Addition Request » Dinah, posted by Gabbette on June 16, 2008, at 18:46:32
Awwww, thanks, Gabbi.
I kind of felt like I was taking a very long road to pointing out that I didn't know what I thought.
Posted by daveuk08 on June 24, 2008, at 15:44:05
In reply to Suicide Clusters - Rule Addition Request, posted by AbbieNormal on June 12, 2008, at 19:25:10
Only just having found this section of this site,I have read all your comments, and I can see both sides of your views.
I tend to go along with Tabitha & Dinah`s comments, I to feel it`s not how Slinky died, it`s how she lived,her input to others, her wit and helpfulness to others, even though she could not take in the advice given by others,as she was a very strong willed self destructive individual person. I personally feel there should be a picture of her, and if asked I will provide it.
Slinky`s Dave.(say no to the "S" word)
This is the end of the thread.
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