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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 39. Go back in thread:
Posted by Frustratedmama on June 20, 2009, at 19:06:35
In reply to Re: Rules - Recommended Changes » SLS, posted by Nadezda on June 20, 2009, at 12:02:41
B = 1 + (SD - 1) * exp(-P/r)
B = block length
S = severity
D = duration of previous block
P = period of time since end of previous block (in weeks)
r = 24 / ln 2 ~ 35
Ok so this is the formula, right? Sounds like the severity determines the block (in addition to the repeat offenders....) sounds like it's an equation that takes into consideration the crime and punishment- but I don't know if it is working based on what I read above. How do others feel?
Please let me know if I am interpreting this wrong- of course I have not history of this so my interpretation is speculation based on what i found in the policies..... Scott, feel free to babblemail me if you want to and maybe I could get more information from you to help support your cause... I know you have been supportive of me and others so I trust you must have a concern with the rules or you wouldn't have posted. Let me know what I can do!
Thanks
FM
Posted by fayeroe on June 20, 2009, at 20:55:05
In reply to Rules - Recommended Changes, posted by SLS on June 20, 2009, at 6:44:41
> For reasons that I can only guess at, there isn't much interest at the moment in participating in these "Rules" threads. However, there are a few changes that seem appropriate to me to be implemented.
I can't speak for everyone here but from the discussions that I, and some of my friends have had..it is "been there, done that". Or "nothing changes, things remain the same".After one has begged, cajoled, pleaded, argued and cried for change here and is met with some silly questions about why we want change...we quit.
He pays the cost to be the boss. Not really, but that is what he must believe. No posters, no $$$$.I'll never comment upon this subject again.
For the posters that still have hope, I wish you good luck,
Pat
>
>
>
Posted by fayeroe on June 20, 2009, at 20:58:44
In reply to Re: Rules - Recommended Changes, posted by fayeroe on June 20, 2009, at 20:55:05
I can be found on the Politics Board, talking to myself. Ciao!
Posted by yxibow on June 20, 2009, at 21:41:24
In reply to Re: Rules - Recommended Changes » SLS, posted by rskontos on June 20, 2009, at 9:10:19
> Scott
>
> I read your rules thread with interest. I just unfortunately think when it comes to changes proposed by anyone other than Dr. Bob himself it rarely happens.
>
> I think the discussion above was a good one with merit. I just thought that I am sure all of us Babblers are listening but the one that has the power to change things may or may not be here.
>
> I did not want you to think there isn't much interest. I left for about 3 months due to a deep discussion regarding rules and lengths of blocks. It has been my observations that PBC's are not used now just blocks. And is my opinion the blocks are now more severe in lengths to certain people than ever in the past.
I agree, as I said in an earlier post, these arcane, well let's see, you've been a felon for 1 week, times 75 in the past, subtract it by 2, multiply it by the distribution under the bell curve, no posting for 47 years.And I leave when that happens to someone. Months. Its not worth it. And when I'm blocked for a week, I leave. I'm not going to just watch the board, I have other things to do that can better occupy my time
-- Jay
Posted by Phillipa on June 20, 2009, at 22:05:02
In reply to Re: Rules - Recommended Changes » rskontos, posted by yxibow on June 20, 2009, at 21:41:24
Same here can't defend self and feel like a kid with face against a glass window and can't get it. Phillipa
Posted by floatingbridge on June 20, 2009, at 23:54:34
In reply to Rules - Recommended Changes, posted by SLS on June 20, 2009, at 6:44:41
Scott, I like what you wrote here, and I'd like to second these changes. Maybe these changes alone would be enough?
> 1. I think the formula for levying blocks creates blocking periods that are too long. I think the maximum period of time that a block be instituted be far less than it is now. There must be a declared maximum, regardless of recidivism, instead of the unrestricted escalation up to a year that we have now. Parking tickets carry the same fine, even if one earns a thousand of them. There might be a need for exceptions, but I can't think of any right now.
>
> 2. The punishment should fit the crime. I think there should be a different set of maximum block lengths prescribed for different infractions.
>
> I'll try to think of more later.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by floatingbridge on June 21, 2009, at 0:32:26
In reply to Rules - Recommended Changes, posted by SLS on June 20, 2009, at 6:44:41
I've just read through the policies and am wondering what is a PBC. Are they, as one poster above mentioned, no longer used?
Following is a quote I found from the Policy section on Civility. I agree with this quote up to a point (and that is allowing people to be 'uncivil'.). What constitutes infraction incurring incivility can be parsed out later. What I like here is the idea of a flexibility and humanity--other posters in other threads above have made this same point. At the same time, I also like the sense of safety and community that a moderated board provides."Part of learning how to deal with others might just be for people to be uncivil, have that pointed out by Dr. Bob and other members, and then work on appropriate alternate behaviors, and then keep posting. I have seen that happen many times here. There is the possibility for growth in this setting, kind of like group therapy, and I think people should take advantage of that. Sort of like practice here, before going to the "outside world" and dealing with the humans in our family and work lives. I would encourage people to ignore posters who press their buttons."
Posted by yxibow on June 21, 2009, at 1:30:42
In reply to Re: Rules Recommended Changes question and comment, posted by floatingbridge on June 21, 2009, at 0:32:26
> I've just read through the policies and am wondering what is a PBC. Are they, as one poster above mentioned, no longer used?
>
>
> Following is a quote I found from the Policy section on Civility. I agree with this quote up to a point (and that is allowing people to be 'uncivil'.). What constitutes infraction incurring incivility can be parsed out later. What I like here is the idea of a flexibility and humanity--other posters in other threads above have made this same point. At the same time, I also like the sense of safety and community that a moderated board provides.
>
> "Part of learning how to deal with others might just be for people to be uncivil, have that pointed out by Dr. Bob and other members, and then work on appropriate alternate behaviors, and then keep posting. I have seen that happen many times here. There is the possibility for growth in this setting, kind of like group therapy, and I think people should take advantage of that. Sort of like practice here, before going to the "outside world" and dealing with the humans in our family and work lives. I would encourage people to ignore posters who press their buttons."I agree, if I think I am reading right what you are saying that this is a place where one should feel safe, just like in a therapist/doctor's office, but at the same time, some brief introduction to what one might see in the outside world, people are rough and "uncivil", whatever that exactly means is up to the beholder.... in the "outside world".....
..... and it is sort of CBT therapy in a way not to totally "press someones buttons" but yes, to be contrite occasionally because well, some people are just sh*tty out there, to put it mildly....
...I've had people "befriend" me because I've said too much "serious" stuff online....
...I find that the people I chat with outside here online who have or have experienced mental illness themselves are much more likely to be receptive and not "befriend" you whether they are local or long distance buddies.
So I think its a balance.-- Jay
Posted by SLS on June 21, 2009, at 6:12:17
In reply to Re: Rules Recommended Changes question and comment » floatingbridge, posted by yxibow on June 21, 2009, at 1:30:42
> > Following is a quote I found from the Policy section on Civility. I agree with this quote up to a point (and that is allowing people to be 'uncivil'.). What constitutes infraction incurring incivility can be parsed out later. What I like here is the idea of a flexibility and humanity--other posters in other threads above have made this same point. At the same time, I also like the sense of safety and community that a moderated board provides.
> >
> > "Part of learning how to deal with others might just be for people to be uncivil, have that pointed out by Dr. Bob and other members, and then work on appropriate alternate behaviors, and then keep posting. I have seen that happen many times here. There is the possibility for growth in this setting, kind of like group therapy, and I think people should take advantage of that. Sort of like practice here, before going to the "outside world" and dealing with the humans in our family and work lives. I would encourage people to ignore posters who press their buttons."
>
>
>
> I agree, if I think I am reading right what you are saying that this is a place where one should feel safe, just like in a therapist/doctor's office, but at the same time, some brief introduction to what one might see in the outside world, people are rough and "uncivil", whatever that exactly means is up to the beholder.... in the "outside world".....
>
> ..... and it is sort of CBT therapy in a way not to totally "press someones buttons" but yes, to be contrite occasionally because well, some people are just sh*tty out there, to put it mildly....
>
> ...I've had people "befriend" me because I've said too much "serious" stuff online....
>
> ...I find that the people I chat with outside here online who have or have experienced mental illness themselves are much more likely to be receptive and not "befriend" you whether they are local or long distance buddies.
>
>
> So I think its a balance.
>
> -- Jay
This sounds pretty healthy.Twinleaf-like.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on June 21, 2009, at 6:17:41
In reply to Re: Rules - Recommended Changes » rskontos, posted by yxibow on June 20, 2009, at 21:41:24
> And when I'm blocked for a week, I leave.
Sorry, Jay.Now *that* is against the rules of civility.
(It will earn you an extra week).
All kidding aside, you would be missed incredibly. Who else would there be to shovel all of the snow?
- Scott
Posted by BayLeaf on June 21, 2009, at 9:23:25
In reply to Re: Rules - Recommended Changes, posted by fayeroe on June 20, 2009, at 20:55:05
remember those learned helplessness experiements?
i am a worn dog. i give. can't even try.
sending my best fresher pups.
Posted by SLS on June 21, 2009, at 10:14:53
In reply to Re: me too, out of steam after many years » fayeroe, posted by BayLeaf on June 21, 2009, at 9:23:25
> remember those learned helplessness experiements?
I can understand this.
At first, though, it seems counterintuitive that those posters who become the most vocal and impassioned when someone is blocked from posting are now the most silent in offering their views regarding posting rules, even when asked directly.
Learned helplessness is just like depression, though. There is not enough psychic energy to deal with issues for which there is no longer sufficient emotional arousal. Resignation will take away motivation to fight.
- Scott
Posted by floatingbridge on June 21, 2009, at 11:08:07
In reply to Rules - Recommended Changes, posted by SLS on June 20, 2009, at 6:44:41
Posted by SLS on June 21, 2009, at 11:45:03
In reply to Scott, so what is a PBC? (nm), posted by floatingbridge on June 21, 2009, at 11:08:07
A PBC (Please Be Civil) is a formal warning. The next similar infraction along the same thread usually earns a posting block.
- Scott
Posted by zenhussy on June 21, 2009, at 12:43:24
In reply to Re: me too, out of steam after many years » BayLeaf, posted by SLS on June 21, 2009, at 10:14:53
>>>Resignation will take away motivation to fight.<<<
So you view admin as a fight? Could you elaborate or clarify?
Posted by Deputy 10derHeart on June 21, 2009, at 14:42:08
In reply to Re: Rules Recommended Changes question and comment, posted by floatingbridge on June 21, 2009, at 0:32:26
> Are they, as one poster above mentioned, no longer used?
(rskontos wrote:)
>It has been my observations that PBC's are not used now just blocksNothing has changed as far as use of PBCs. Deputies have asked posters to be civil 8 times in the month of June, and Dr. Bob asked one poster to 'please rephrase..." a part of a post (sometimes referred to as a PRT=Please Rephrase That)
The only thing posters may have noticed recently is Dr. Bob trying different methods to avoid PBCs, blocks altogether, and to encourage posters to work things out in the thread, amongst themselves. You'll find plenty of threads/posts on this Admin board discussing that issue - pro and con. (Not sure if there are any "pro," actually) In those threads, the deputies have not been acting, whether or not we see uncivil posts, once Dr. Bob has engaged the posters. Sometimes, it is many days, even weeks, before Dr. Bob is able to find the time to look at those threads again. That is unfortunate, but true.
In general, deputies will ask a poster to please follow the civility guidelines **at least** once, sometimes 2 or more times before resorting to a block. I know I can speak for all of us when I say our focus is on **asking** a person to follow the guidelines, and/or teaching what they are when there is confusion. That is the goal. None of us likes resorting to blocks. We use our best assessment of the poster and posts, taking into consideration whether they are new, are trying to post civil posts but misunderstanding the guidelines, etc. The times you may see no PBC before a block are with long time posters just coming off a block, who may post in basically the same uncivil manner that resulted in that block, the idea being they know what is and isn't civil, so..... Or, perhaps when a poster posts uncivil things, and immediately says, "I don't care about the XXXX civility rules," or, "I know this isn't civil so block me..., " or words to that effect. I that covers 98% of the times deputies block without a prior PBC.
We consult with each other in most cases, about PBCs, whether things are uncivil or not, whether it is appropriate to block, etc. This may not happen if only one deputy is available for hours (say when something is escalating quickly) or a day or more, etc. We alert Dr. Bob if we feel unable to act in a given situation. We also alert Dr. Bob on anything we've done but feel needs a look by him, to be sure we've applied the guidelines the way he would like. He can, of course, reverse, change, cancel or do anything he likes after any deputy action. Even though he is not here as frequently as we (the deputies) would like, these are still his boards, his guidelines.
Hope that helps answer some questions for the newer posters. As I posted to Scott above, I personally wish to stay out of these threads about rule changes, etc., as I think it's better not to have deputy input...and to just "listen" (i.e. read) what posters have to say. But, I'll do my best to answer any specific questions about current admin policy, if any more come up.
-- 10derHeart
Posted by rskontos on June 21, 2009, at 14:51:56
In reply to use of requests to be civil (PBC, etc.) » floatingbridge, posted by Deputy 10derHeart on June 21, 2009, at 14:42:08
You know actually this was very helpful to know why sometimes I have seen blocks without a PBC and wondered how it escalated straight to a block. I knew about the blocks after coming off after a block and the times when like you mentioned when someone blatantly says "I don''t care about the @@@ rules."
So this did clarify quite a bit for me.
I just do so hate for blocks though. I think they must be hurtful.
rsk
Posted by floatingbridge on June 21, 2009, at 15:56:35
In reply to use of requests to be civil (PBC, etc.) » floatingbridge, posted by Deputy 10derHeart on June 21, 2009, at 14:42:08
Hi Deputy 10derHeart,
Your post is very helpful in my understanding of current discussion and also in the forming of my own opinion. I realize now that I have seen these PBC's.
Thank you for interjecting,
Candace
Posted by 10derHeart on June 21, 2009, at 16:23:48
In reply to Re: use of requests to be civil (PBC, etc.) » Deputy 10derHeart, posted by floatingbridge on June 21, 2009, at 15:56:35
Posted by 10derHeart on June 21, 2009, at 16:26:30
In reply to Re: use of requests to be civil (PBC, etc.) » Deputy 10derHeart, posted by rskontos on June 21, 2009, at 14:51:56
I know blocks hurt. Many posters have expressed that here.
Posted by SLS on June 21, 2009, at 19:51:20
In reply to Re: me too, out of steam after many years » SLS, posted by zenhussy on June 21, 2009, at 12:43:24
>>>Resignation will take away motivation to fight.<<<
> So you view admin as a fight?Naw.
Do you?
> Could you elaborate or clarify?Naw.
Since I don't view it that way for myself, there is nothing for me to elaborate on.
However, learned helplessness is the result of the fight or flight response to stress being extinguished when the individual learns that it has no control over its environment. It is learned helplessness that I was commenting on as a model for "running out of steam" after so many years.
- Scott
Posted by Zeba on June 21, 2009, at 21:04:01
In reply to use of requests to be civil (PBC, etc.) » floatingbridge, posted by Deputy 10derHeart on June 21, 2009, at 14:42:08
Well I wish this were true, but I for one was blocked once with no warning. No caution, no warning, nothing--just blocked. I had not been recently blocked either. What I was seeing was that some people just got blocked and some got warnings. Don't know why that was.
Zeba
Posted by SLS on June 22, 2009, at 4:56:57
In reply to Rules - Recommended Changes, posted by SLS on June 20, 2009, at 6:44:41
I feel that there is too steep a learning curve for people who are just beginning to post on Psycho-Babble to understand and implement the rules of civility, regardless of how many time they read the FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions). To learn a whole new paradigm of communication can take several months, and we are expecting them to be exacting in their verbiage within a week. I see very intelligent, eloquent, generous, and well-meaning people leaving Psycho-Babble before they are here for a month.
- Scott
Posted by Justherself54 on June 22, 2009, at 10:42:42
In reply to Re: Rules - Recommended Changes, posted by SLS on June 22, 2009, at 4:56:57
Good point-I agree 100%
Posted by Nadezda on June 22, 2009, at 11:12:07
In reply to Re: Rules - Recommended Changes » SLS, posted by Justherself54 on June 22, 2009, at 10:42:42
One of my deepest concerns with blocks is that they are very unpredictable. I mean-- some are predictable-- if there';s been a contentious discussion for a while on a populous board-- or on politics--
I find that there are many ad hominem-ish or objectionable posts that get no response from the TPTB -- and I find myself amazed that they are let go without a mumur. While other posts, that may be sharp or defensive, or just badly worded so that some hostility does get through (or seem to)-- are blocked.
I know that enforcement can only be spotty-- and I don't see posts that don't violate some understandable norm (at least I understand it) blocked-- but I see many many posts that violate the norm left to stand. And so it becomes impossible to know, really, if you've crossed a line or not-- because the line just never gets drawn in a clear enough, consistent enough way.
I mean-- I know when a post has crossed it-- but there's a huge terrain when I think posts must have and yet nothing happens-- and this creates a lot of confusion-- and possibly makes people feel even more constrained than they need to.
I think that may be why many blocks come as a shock to the poster.-- They were kind of in the wrong place at the wrong time-- or someone complained-- and they get singled out-- and rightfully wonder-- how come?
So I do think this is a perhaps unresolveable, but really huge, persistent problem with the civility rules.
And I do personally remember some blocks which just seemed to me so badly timed-- so clearly about to hurt someone who was really in bad shape and just didn't need that to happen, too. I know all blocks hurt-- and all of us struggle-- but there are certain instances when people have just been so overwhelmed and in the midst of a moment that seemed especially hard-- and not the norm for them-- that it seemed that more discretion might have been exercised.
Now I know that this is a personal judgment-- and that we can't have rules that someone who's suffering more at a moment shouldn't be blocked-- I guess it's just that, to me, the rules are so intermittantly applied that it has always seemed to me-- you know-- why not just overlook this one? why not just let this one go, too?
I don't mean this as a reproof to the deputies-- at all. I guess I'm just saying that I do wish there were some other mechanisms in place other than PBCs and blocks to try to help people out of these places they get into--not only after, but before, blocks happen. I'm sure most of us know when someone else is in that danger zone-- and some of us might be enlisted to do more, not only privately, but for board.
I know it would take more work on the part of whoever administers the board. And we're apparently down in participation-- so more helpers aren't necessarily available.
There's no perfect world-- but I do think the blocks and the reactions of anger and hurt to blocks has started to really erode the sense of connection and hope that many had here. And maybe it really is time to rethink how all this has worked.
Nadezda
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