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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by violette on July 23, 2010, at 9:43:43
Dr. Bob,
Can't you just say that rules and features of this forum are set up to be amenable to past, present, or future research goals?
Alot of threads on the Admin. forum reveal an underlying group frustration; as we tell you features are NOT helpful to us, you continually say how those same undesirable features will "bring more support." There is no logic in that. And when continually faced with irrational answers, one can only make assumptions...
I feel you implement features such as Twitter and Facebook, and this new point system to see the effect it has on members here from a research standpoint--as opposed to merely bringing more support. I can't read your mind, but obviously this reasoning is not rational-you introduce things that people who use the forum say are NOT helpful, then tell us they will be helpful. That very 'logic' has undertones of craziness-like gaslighting.
I saw just one person who thought the point system would be helpful, and 2 (that I know of) who supported your choice of Facebook/Twitter. And many who don't opt out don't seem to care either way, but hardly anyone has supported these features.
Can't you just be transparent as to what your motivations are??? That is what I personally find frustrating-every poster argument against your decision to initiate features ends up with your saying it will benefit the very people who say it will bring less benefit or even harm. (hence, Kool-Aid, trickle-down economic policies, etc.)
Saying that support is the primary purpose of this forum sounds misleading. In an above post, you even said you'd rather have posts of information as opposed to posts of peoples' experiences. Well maybe many find that posts regarding others' experiences are most helpful and supportive to them, rather than a post of information, such as links to research articles? Again, things you want are not things the members have stated.
Not only does it feel like being deceived, it feels like being manipulated, and there is a fakeness about it. I think others sense this too. If you were more direct and open about this, others might be more understanding. Well I know I would. The group frustration with the lack of logic in your statements is obvious-and in part, explains why there are so many posts on the Admin. forum.
Personally, I'd be much more understanding of your very unpopular decisions if you simply came out and stated this in a direct manner.
Posted by PartlyCloudy on July 23, 2010, at 11:33:19
In reply to Reasons behind Psychobabble decisions, posted by violette on July 23, 2010, at 9:43:43
> Personally, I'd be much more understanding of your very unpopular decisions if you simply came out and stated this in a direct manner.Good luck with that. I am not bemoaning past behavior that I've witnessed here, but I hold little hope of seeing change of entrenched patterns. I am no longer blue (whew!!) with holding my breath for such explanations or transparencies to be stated plainly. To reduce my expectations was an enormous relief. (And I believe that THAT was the change I needed to see; my expectations were adjusted in a downwards direction.)
pc
Posted by violette on July 23, 2010, at 12:48:48
In reply to Re: Reasons behind Psychobabble decisions » violette, posted by PartlyCloudy on July 23, 2010, at 11:33:19
Partly Cloudy,
People have pointed out how others (perhaps considering me one of them) come here to complain or "fuss" over Dr. Bob. I was trying to figure out why so many people come to the Admin. forum, or repeatedly post here. Many of whom used to post on the other forums but end up here in the end...and don't, or rarely use other parts of the forum despite having had used them in the past.
Well, so I started this thread; and after reading your reply, I think I know what it is...I realized the interactions remind me of gaslighting (denying a person's reality-read article excerpts below):
Scenerio
==============================================
Poster: I feel uncomfortable with Facebook/Twitter fo reasons x, y, z...Dr. Bob: In theory, anyone can cut and paste your posts to Twitter and Facebook already
Poster: But no one does this
Dr. Bob: It's the same concept, anyone can do this; it's like Google
Poster: But it has driven people away from the forum
Dr. Bob: It will bring you more support
==============================================
Poster: I feel uncomfortable with a point system-it will lead me to feel badly about myselfDr. Bob: The point system will help you-members will be encouraged to be more supportive
Poster: But I think it will discourage me/us from posting
Dr. Bob: It will encourage others to be more supportive. Be the change you wish to see...
==============================================And I don't think Dr. Bob would be intentionally emotionally abusive, that's not it. I just think the way he interacts with us sometimes parallels gaslighting.
If it's happened to you before, PC, maybe you could relate...It's happened to me, and it is one of the most awful types of emotional abuse. It has the potential to make any sane individual 'feel crazy' if it continues. I think many don't recognize this concept w/o having the personal experience..but am thinking it's part of the reason people continue to post on Admin.-elements of gaslighting stirs emotions and reactions in people here, whether they know it or not? It really does make you feel crazy...but it's so insidious, often difficult to recognize.
So that's my investigation; I think this conclusion-whether right or wrong-provides me personal validation that I am not crazy, and explains to myself why I've posted on the Adminstration Forum. It's actually a relief to recognize this...
And it's not the same as having this happen to you in a relationship--although there are relationships here, it would not have such an intense affect as an IRL relationship...but there is still effect.
So my experience with gaslighting-before I recognized the similarities of feelings in the past--led to asking Dr. Bob to be more open...
I would welcome his saying, for example, "A point system might be a good site feature to research, testing a point system could pilot future research projects. In the end, if research determines this effect has caused more support, posters will benefit. It could be an interesting feature to analyze, to see the effects on support, so let's try it and see how it turns out. For right now, I'd like to do a trial to see if this could be something I'd want to research in the future..."
That's it. The continously telling posters the things they think will not benefit them--will benefit them--denies a person's reality. This causes frustration-either conscious or unconscious; thus, people get upset and post here more often. Although it may effect others more due to past experience, it truly is something that will make anyone-including the sanest-feel crazy or perhaps frustrated...
As to expectations, I think I've just been responding to this effect similar to what's recommended by the article-standing my ground...
"Sorry, Mom, but you're the one who owes me an apology....If our three gaslightees were able to take this attitude, there would be no gaslighting. Maybe their gaslighters would still behave badly, but their behavior would no longer have such a pernicious effect."
Well I think I've said all I need to say. This was an eye-opening experience. Of course, if this has personally happened to you before from a loved one, whether you recognize it or not, it might affect you more. Either way, the sanest of people can be effected by gaslighting-another person denying your reality.
I don't care if people criticize me for posting this. I learned alot from my conclusions, and maybe others will appreciate pointing this out. And again, I don't think Dr. Bob would purpose do this-I just hope he takes note of this concept...Anyway, therapy has helped me recognize that I am a reasonable person-to stop questioning myself so much. I feel strongly this is the case, whether or not people agree. And I am certain I have no ill intentions whatsover in stating this here, as my unconscious has become part of my conscious...
And personally, my weekly psychotherapy works every day of the week (I really get my $ worth) and this realization was therapeutic for me, despite some may view it negatively. Maybe Dr. Bob will look into this? Maybe others will recognize this may affect them? Well I guess some people will be happy that I have said all I need to say...And that's ok with me too, as it's been a very insightful experience. :)
Gaslighting:
Gaslighting is the systematic attempt by one person to erode anothers reality. This is done by telling them that what they are experiencing isnt so and, the gradual giving up on the part of the other person.
"You know youre in a full blown Gaslight Effect when you find yourself second guessing your own reality; when youre unsure of what you really think and feel. Why? Because youve allowed someone else to define your reality for you. Invariably, this leads to being told what to think and how to think. And then in turn, youre told who you are. Youre molded into an entity that someone else deems worthy of his or her love, affection; attention."
http://lauriekendrick.wordpress.com/2008/07/03/the-sad-art-of-gaslighting/
"If you think things like this can't happen to you, think again. Gaslighting is when someone wants you to do what you know you shouldn't and to believe the unbelieveable. It can happen to you and it probably already has."
"Gaslighting is an insidious form of emotional abuse and manipulation that is difficult to recognize and even harder to break free from. That's because it plays into one of our worst fears - of being abandoned - and many of our deepest needs: to be understood, appreciated, and loved."
"But when he wears the new clothes to Sunday dinner at his parents' home, his mother bursts out laughing. "Oh, Mitchell, that outfit is all wrong for you - you look ridiculous," she says. "Please, dear, the next time you go shopping, let me help you." When Mitchell feels hurt and asks his mother to apologize, she shakes her head sadly. "I was only trying to help," she says. "And I'd like an apology from you for that tone of voice."
"Mitchell is confused. He liked his new clothes - but maybe he does look ridiculous. And has he really been rude to his mother?"
"Katie, Liz, and Mitchell have one thing in common: they're all suffering from the Gaslight Effect. The Gaslight Effect results from a relationship between two people: a gaslighter, who needs to be right in order to preserve his own sense of self and his sense of having power in the world; and a gaslightee, who allows the gaslighter to define her sense of reality because she idealizes him and seeks his approval. Gaslighters and gaslightees can be of either gender, and gaslighting can happen in any type of relationship. But I'm going to call gaslighters "he" and gaslightees "she," since that's the pairing I most often see in my practice. I'll explore a variety of relationships - with friends, family, bosses, and colleagues - but the male-female romantic pairing will be my major focus."
"For example, Katie's gaslighting boyfriend insists that the world is a dangerous place and that Katie's behavior is inappropriate and insensitive. When he feels stressed or threatened, he has to be right about these issues, and he has to get Katie to agree that he is. Katie values the relationship and doesn't want to lose Brian, so she starts to see things from his point of view. Maybe the people they meet are laughing at her. Maybe she is being flirtatious. Gaslighting has begun."
"Likewise, Liz's boss insists that he really cares about her and that any concerns she has are because she's paranoid."
"The problem is, gaslighting is insidious. It plays on our worst fears, our most anxious thoughts, our deepest wishes to be understood, appreciated, and loved. When someone we trust, respect, or love speaks with great certainty - especially if there's a grain of truth in his words, or if he's hit on one of our pet anxieties - it can be very difficult not to believe him. And when we idealize the gaslighter - when we want to see him as the love of our life, an admirable boss, or a wonderful parent - then we have even more difficulty sticking to our own sense of reality. Our gaslighter needs to be right, we need to win his approval, and so the gaslighting goes on."
http://www.enotalone.com/article/16906.html
"The term derives from the 1938 stage play Gas Light (originally known as Angel Street in the United States), and the 1940 and 1944 film adaptions. The plot concerns a husband who attempts to drive his wife to insanity by manipulating small elements of their environment, and insisting that she is mistaken or misremembering when she points out these changes. The title stems from the husband's subtle dimming of the house's gas lights, which she accurately notices and which the husband insists she's imagining."
"Gaslighting" has been used colloquially, since at least the mid 1970s, to describe psychologically upsetting manipulations of the type depicted in the play and film: In her 1980 book The Best Kept Secret: Sexual Abuse of Children[1] Florence Rush summarizes George Cukor's 1944 film version of Gas Light, and writes, "even today the word [gaslight] is used to describe an attempt to destroy another's perception of reality."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting
Changing expectations:
"Of course, Katie, Liz, and Mitchell all have other choices. Katie might ignore her boyfriend's negative remarks, ask him to stop making them, or as a last resort, break up with him. Liz could say to herself, "Wow, this new boss is a piece of work. Well; maybe that smarmy charm has fooled everyone else in this company - but not me!" Mitchell might reply calmly, "Sorry, Mom, but you're the one who owes me an apology." All of them could decide that, on some basic level, they are willing to live with their gaslighters' disapproval. They know they are good, capable, lovable people, and that's all that matters."
"If our three gaslightees were able to take this attitude, there would be no gaslighting. Maybe their gaslighters would still behave badly, but their behavior would no longer have such a pernicious effect."
Posted by Phillipa on July 23, 2010, at 13:10:18
In reply to Re: Reasons behind Psychobabble decisions » PartlyCloudy, posted by violette on July 23, 2010, at 12:48:48
I rarely visit admin as the same subject just seems to continue like a bad relationship. I feel that's all. Phillipa
Posted by PartlyCloudy on July 23, 2010, at 14:03:38
In reply to Re: Reasons behind Psychobabble decisions » PartlyCloudy, posted by violette on July 23, 2010, at 12:48:48
That's fascinating, Violette.
I don't feel that I've been experiencing gaslighting in this instance; what I have learned is that despite my best efforts and sincere wishes, I have to constantly be on the alert to not let my expectations of others be unrealistic. That would seem to the source of my conflict on these boards.
pc
Posted by violette on July 23, 2010, at 14:40:49
In reply to Re: Reasons behind Psychobabble decisions » violette, posted by PartlyCloudy on July 23, 2010, at 14:03:38
Well I am glad to hear you figured out something about yourself too... :) I agree with you that expectations are important. I think my expectations have been fairly realistic on a consistent basis when I look back on my life...though I get hopeful at times in some areas, it seems to be balanced for the most part.
I suppose if you lower your expectations, you then wouldn't ever be disappointed? Though I don't think it's unrealistic to expect someone in the field of mental health to understand a person...I do think its UNrealistic to expect that same person to always or even sometimes agree.
Or maybe I expect a certain level of autonomy from people, to be seen and treated as an individual and not an object/objectified. That hasn't always been the case 100% of the time because some people just tend to do that, and it would be unrealistic to expect that with everyone..I can accept that being the case perhapys 95% of the time..
Then again, that expectation is just an element of humanity...Unless a person wants to go around thinking everyone is potentially a 'bad' person. I prefer to look at the good in just about anyone, without setting myself up for disappointment if this turns out to not be the case as I'm aware this is not true 100% of the time.
Posted by Violette on July 24, 2010, at 10:47:27
In reply to Reasons behind Psychobabble decisions, posted by violette on July 23, 2010, at 9:43:43
I wish I could delete this post....and didn't write out my thoughts here.
I do think when someone denies your reality it touches on-or for some maybe triggers-unconscious fears in the human reptilian brain/amygdala...as human beings do have life or death instincts-which includes psychological death-psychosis, which is basically loss of self...
But I realizzed that I don't really care anymore, and likewise, would like to just delete these thoughts from this forum altogether....
Dr. Bob-maybe you might need a break from the Admin. board, or the whole forum? Maybe even Deneb could cover for you for a while as I think she would enjoy the opportunity? Take a vacation!!
Sincerely,
Violette
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 24, 2010, at 12:59:22
In reply to Re: Reasons behind Psychobabble decisions, posted by Violette on July 24, 2010, at 10:47:27
> I wish I could delete this post....and didn't write out my thoughts here.
>
> I do think when someone denies your reality it touches on-or for some maybe triggers-unconscious fears in the human reptilian brain/amygdala...as human beings do have life or death instincts-which includes psychological death-psychosis, which is basically loss of self...
>
> But I realizzed that I don't really care anymore, and likewise, would like to just delete these thoughts from this forum altogether....
>
> Dr. Bob-maybe you might need a break from the Admin. board, or the whole forum? Maybe even Deneb could cover for you for a while as I think she would enjoy the opportunity? Take a vacation!!
>
> Sincerely,
> VioletteFrends,
It is written here,[...for some (,) maybe triggers -uncouncious fears...life or death instincts..psychological death psychosis...loss of self...].
You see, here is brought out a concept. This concept is about death. Now I have been writing here about death. But the death in that I want to save lives that I have been writing about does not have to be physical death, for I have been writing about that there is death to the soul, which is a living death.
You see there are instrumentas of death. But there are other instruments of death besides knives and guns etc. There is dehuminization. There is infliction of emotional distress. There is defamation. There is indifference even if it is not deliberate, for the recipiant could not know if the indifference is deliberate or not. There is abandonment. There is discrimination. There is entrapment. There is ex post facto. There is neglect, and numerous other ways one can commit murder of someone's soul. One doing such could say that your not important enough, or not allowed to have my time. These are some of the instruments of murder of the soul, a living death. But be of good cheer. It has been revealed to me that when one is faced with the death of their soul, that there is a way to restore your soul, a death of death. I am not permitted to post here about that, but you could go elsewhere to find it.
Lou
Posted by violette on July 25, 2010, at 9:41:11
In reply to Lou's response-ghoelzware » Violette, posted by Lou Pilder on July 24, 2010, at 12:59:22
"It has been revealed to me that when one is faced with the death of their soul, that there is a way to restore your soul, a death of death. I am not permitted to post here about that, but you could go elsewhere to find it."
Lou, I'm not faced with death of my soul (not now anyway), and I have my own spiritual path but thanks.
I was trying to figure out your code: ghoelzware
God
Has
Offered
Eternal
Life
Zion
A
R
EGive me a hint-I like solving puzzles :)
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 26, 2010, at 1:42:51
In reply to Re: Reasons behind Psychobabble decisions » PartlyCloudy, posted by violette on July 23, 2010, at 14:40:49
> Can't you just say that rules and features of this forum are set up to be amenable to past, present, or future research goals?
You seem to be pretty sure about what I intend.
> In an above post, you even said you'd rather have posts of information as opposed to posts of peoples' experiences.
Where did I say that?
> I just think the way he interacts with us sometimes parallels gaslighting.
>
> It's happened to me, and it is one of the most awful types of emotional abuse.If something traumatic happens to someone, they can be hypervigilant about it happening again...
> every poster argument against your decision to initiate features ends up with your saying it will benefit the very people who say it will bring less benefit or even harm.
I haven't meant to imply that anything would benefit anyone in particular. I do think some features may benefit the community. Particular posters may think they won't benefit them in particular or the community in general. Reasonable people can disagree.
> I do think its UNrealistic to expect that same person to always or even sometimes agree.
>
> I prefer to look at the good in just about anyoneRight, we won't necessarily be of one mind. Can you look at the good in me?
Bob
Posted by violette on July 26, 2010, at 9:56:48
In reply to Re: Reasons behind Psychobabble decisions, posted by Dr. Bob on July 26, 2010, at 1:42:51
> In an above post, you even said you'd rather have posts of information as opposed to posts of peoples' experiences.
> Where did I say that?
It *seems* like the changes you make here are to encourage/influence people to post in certain ways so the forum takes on certain characteristics:
> And that posting less about "experiences" may be one way posters "censor themselves".
> Some people may feel more comfortable posting facts than experiences on a public board. The point system would reward helpful posting. That's the kind of posting I want. The idea that people would be voted out may reflect the Faceful of Cat Effect
And I thought that if you were perhaps more open about the overall goals of this forum-that includes what you use it for rather than just what we use it for-people could adjust their expections accordingly.
> I haven't meant to imply that anything would benefit anyone in particular. I do think some features may benefit the community. Particular posters may think they won't benefit them in particular or the community in general. Reasonable people can disagree.
If you were more open about such goals-perhaps people would not be as inclined to respond to things such as *imply*-and instead, could evaluate things realistically. And yes, I have said positive things to you. At the same time, I had been trying to convey to you that posters have said they feel features will not benefit the *community*, as posters are the community, and point out various reasons, but you keep saying they will benefit the community.
Posted by violette on July 26, 2010, at 9:59:06
In reply to Re: Reasons behind Psychobabble decisions, posted by Dr. Bob on July 26, 2010, at 1:42:51
I'd prefer to wrap up this discussion from my end, so I do not wish for a response, but thanks for addressing my post.
This is the end of the thread.
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