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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 270 to 294 of 308. Go back in thread:
Posted by olivia12 on September 21, 2010, at 20:11:32
In reply to I have an idea for Babble, posted by Deneb on July 2, 2010, at 15:03:50
No, I disagree completely Deb--didn't read the thread of responses, but your suggestion just sounds too much like my old psych texts--a reward system or token economy that went out with the 60's version of mental health--leeches and lobotomies. I find this site to be way more evolved than that. No offense--is just IMO:) I appreciate the advice and fellowship offered here--no more, no less.
Posted by twinleaf on September 22, 2010, at 20:10:30
In reply to Re: thanks » Dr. Bob, posted by Kath on September 21, 2010, at 11:19:23
To follow on from Kath's post, the most striking thing that has happened over the last couple of years is the enormous decline in the amount of posting. From what long-term members have said, they would love to be able to post the way they used to, but they do not have the same sense of comfort and safety which they once had. The loss of active posters does not appear to have been compensated for at all by new members from Facebook/Twitter.
None of us expect that Bob will do what we think would be best, necessarily. But I think we do expect to be heard respectfully, and our views acknowleged accurately. In the case of FB/Twitter, well over a hundred people expressed their sincere concern over the increased dangers of privacy loss. These were serious concerns involving jobs and insurance. Bob did not once acknowledge that these were accurate and valid concerns, but instead told everyone that their concerns were due to a fear of the new and unknown. It is impossible to feel like a respected and valued member of the community when communications by the moderator are that poor and inaccurate. It has resulted in a major loss of trust and confidence in this site. While it is not easy to do, I think the future health of Babble depends on whether Bob is willing to look thoughtfully at how his communications are perceived. In addition to not acknowledging peoples' concerns about the social networks and the ratings system accurately and respectfully (this does NOT mean agreeing with them necessarily), there is also a lack of respect shown in the extremely long blocks, and especially in Bob's statement that there is a "punitive" element in them. Punitive elements are simply not appropriate on an internet form, and especially not on one devoted to mental health. This is also true of the civility reminders. There are posters here with more life education and education than Bob, and it is really not appropriate to tell them, or anyone, what is or is not civil, Who is to say that someone who has a different idea about what is civil is wrong, while Bob is right? . Almost every difference of opinion here will be self-correcting, given a little time and space.
To end on a positive note, Bob has created a wonderful site. It has remaiined tremendously helpful for information about treatments, and it could be very valuable once again in some of the more interpersonally sensitive forums, like Psychology and Social.
Posted by twinleaf on September 23, 2010, at 15:44:21
In reply to what might help, posted by twinleaf on September 22, 2010, at 20:10:30
I realize that I tried to address the pervasive feeling which we have of not being understood - of having the reasons for our points of view reflected back to us in an altered form, but didn't address the next difficult problem: how to react when Bob makes changes which hundreds of posters feel are not in Babble's best interests. In order to have a forum to which lots of people want to contribute, there probably needs to be roughly a majority consensus between Bob and our community about what would be best. Beginning about three years ago, there was a very extensive discussion about the blocking policy. This was followed by another even more extensive debate about Facebook/Twitter. Currently, the same thing is happening over the *reward system*. Community members have been thoughtfully expressing their views about each of these topics; they have been against each one, for clear and substantial reasons, by at least 100 to 1. As Bob proceeds to implement policies which are so unpopular, the number of posters who feel that Babble is no longer the right forum for them grows and grows. Right now, the number of posts appears to be almost at a standstill..
What would Bob lose if he set a new policy for blocking which had a maximum length of a few weeks, which did not double for repeat offenses, and which did not have a punitive element as one of its purposes? What would the loss be if he ceased micromanaging the civility guidelines, and trusted members to work out their difficulties most of the time? What would be the loss to him if the default position on Facebook/Twitter was the opposite of what it presently is? :Lastly, what loss would there be if the reward system were set aside? Not only would there be no discernable loss to him, there are tremendous potential gains. I think that adopting these new positions would create the conditions for the return of a lively and vibrant babble - a la 2007. There are so many babblers who would like to post the way they once did. And if they can once again create a strong, active community, new members will have something worthwhile to join.
Posted by olivia12 on September 23, 2010, at 18:57:42
In reply to to conclude....., posted by twinleaf on September 23, 2010, at 15:44:21
As I am new to this group, I don't know which policies you are referring to. I personally appreciate Bob's lack of censorship/involvement--he kinda just let's us be. I have never felt ignored or attacked and have gained much from reading here. Can you give me some of your insight though? Thanks.
Posted by twinleaf on September 23, 2010, at 19:32:31
In reply to Re: to conclude....., posted by olivia12 on September 23, 2010, at 18:57:42
I was trying to address the fact that the rate of posting is probably only 5-10% of what it was several years ago, and, for many of us who were Babble members then, it seems as though those who do post are much less spontaneous and open- apparently much more wary of incurring blocks and civility warnings. Many people who posted almost daily now don't post at all because they are still upset about having their views misinterpreted and about the extremely unpopular decisions involving blocking, civility and social networking policies,
What I was saying would really only be meaningful to those of us who have been here a while. Babble really needs enthusiastic new members like you!
Posted by olivia12 on September 23, 2010, at 19:46:57
In reply to Re: to conclude..... » olivia12, posted by twinleaf on September 23, 2010, at 19:32:31
I don't know about any "warnings" or "blocks"--I'd feel micromanaged and be less likely to comment if I thought I'd be reprimanded! I find Dr.Bob to be refreshing and pretty liberal in what he lets happen here--in fact, I find it a bit out of the ordinary on a messege board. Still, I haven't been on here long enough to make any comparisons from then to now. Maybe this site was just hot and heavy when it started because it was new?
Posted by vwoolf on September 25, 2010, at 10:42:12
In reply to what might help, posted by twinleaf on September 22, 2010, at 20:10:30
In a post on the social board on 20th August, and I don't know how to create a link, sorry, Dr Bob wrote regarding the Facebook, Twitter debacle:
>I know that process left much to be desired, and I continue to regret that.
It was, to my mind, an important and courageous statement, and one which we should encourage Dr Bob to consider carefully. I know he cares deeply about PsychoBabble, and I think it is hard for him to see it declining like this, in part because of what he admits to have been his mistakes. It is my hope that he will eventually find a way to repair some of the damage that has been done to PsychoBabble, perhaps starting by removing the Twitter and Facebook buttons.
My personal take on the blocks and civility posts is that they are necessary and helpful in creating a frame. I think this is confirmed by the number of posters who return even after a year's block - there is something good and caring about a parent who sets consistent boundaries.
> To end on a positive note, Bob has created a wonderful site. It has remaiined tremendously helpful for information about treatments, and it could be very valuable once again in some of the more interpersonally sensitive forums, like Psychology and Social.
I couln't agree more.
Posted by twinleaf on September 25, 2010, at 19:10:16
In reply to Re: what might help » twinleaf, posted by vwoolf on September 25, 2010, at 10:42:12
Psychobabble is right at the leading edge of online communities. Posting topics and personal interactions are bound to be unexpected and stress-inducing at times, and knowing how to respond can be extremely challenging. I think we all look up to Bob as a very competent leader in these areas, and we would like very much to see him demonstrate the flexibility which being a leader in a new field necessarily requires. I think it is very reasonable, on our parts, to hope and expect that Bob will modify policies which hundreds of posters find unacceptable or even harnful. If he did this, it would be a "win-win" situation for everyone: Bob would not lose anything of importance to him or to Psychobabble, and he would gain the respect and trust of hundreds of babblers while still being able to administer the site effectively. On our parts, we would appreciate his flexibility tremendously,and would be very grateful to be rid of outmoded, unhelpful, damaging administrative policies. Many people have said here how much they would like to see these changes, and how much they would like to see the conditions of several years ago restored.. While no-one can say for sure, I think there is a very good chance that posting rates would increase a great deal if Bob made these quite modest changes. So........Bob?
Posted by muffled on September 25, 2010, at 19:18:20
In reply to Re: what might help, posted by twinleaf on September 25, 2010, at 19:10:16
Lovely to think of, but I no longer trust Bob.
Been burned too many times.
:(
Posted by twinleaf on September 25, 2010, at 20:03:26
In reply to Re: what might help, posted by muffled on September 25, 2010, at 19:18:20
vwoolf made such a good point - quoting Bob as saying that he had regrets about how things unfolded with the Facebook/Twitter situation. This was an example of a novel situation, with no similar situations in the past to help guide Bob in his decision-making. I feel certain that he acted in good faith throughout that whole process, and may well have been surprised by how negative our reactions were. I think it was terrific that he acknowledges later that he regretted some of his actions. I really respect anyone who does that! Still, there should be a next step: correcting what was wrong. I personally would be happy with a default position which protects our privacy, rather than one which automatically spreads our posts onto the social networks. It is important to me to continue to support this position, because I received two blocks of more than a year for (civilly) objecting to Facebook/Twitter.
At the moment, I am just suggesting one action: modifying the default position for Facebook/Twitter (or doing something comparable) . If this could be done, perhaps other issues like the exceedingly harsh and inappropriate blocks which I and others have received for civilly expressing a disagreement, might be reviewed by Bob and the community, with the goal of implementing policies which have, or can be worked on together until they have majority support.
Posted by olivia12 on September 27, 2010, at 12:45:20
In reply to Re: what might help » muffled, posted by twinleaf on September 25, 2010, at 20:03:26
I am totally confused...I can't seem to figure out what this discussion is about. I have always felt that my privacy was very respected here. What facebook/twitter buttons are you guys talking about please?
Posted by twinleaf on September 27, 2010, at 14:13:31
In reply to Re: what might help, posted by olivia12 on September 27, 2010, at 12:45:20
They are just below your message. When you joined Babble, there was a choice to opt out of having your posts automatically forwarded to Facebook and Twitter. Because you did not choose that option, all of your messages are automatically forwarded.
Posted by muffled on September 27, 2010, at 14:31:44
In reply to Re: what might help » muffled, posted by twinleaf on September 25, 2010, at 20:03:26
> vwoolf made such a good point - quoting Bob as saying that he had regrets about how things unfolded with the Facebook/Twitter situation. This was an example of a novel situation, with no similar situations in the past to help guide Bob in his decision-making. I feel certain that he acted in good faith throughout that whole process, and may well have been surprised by how negative our reactions were. I think it was terrific that he acknowledges later that he regretted some of his actions. I really respect anyone who does that!
*I respect people who respect others feelings about things...
He has spoken, but has he DONE anything???
Bob has always talked, and that is a fascinating thing in of itself...LOL, but it is his *actions* I am much more interested in.>Still, there should be a next step: correcting what was wrong. I personally would be happy with a default position which protects our privacy, rather than one which automatically spreads our posts onto the social networks. It is important to me to continue to support this position, because I received two blocks of more than a year for (civilly) objecting to Facebook/Twitter.
*yeah, blocks are yet another "issue" I have with how this place is run. Which is why I left. Why do i come back? Cuz it used to be a good place, so I come to visit is all, I read, but fear posting anything personal. I am ok posting here, but nothing personal anymore. :(
> At the moment, I am just suggesting one action: modifying the default position for Facebook/Twitter (or doing something comparable) . If this could be done, perhaps other issues like the exceedingly harsh and inappropriate blocks which I and others have received for civilly expressing a disagreement, might be reviewed by Bob and the community, with the goal of implementing policies which have, or can be worked on together until they have majority support.*ahhhhh you are sweet, thats helpful, but not enuf. We have tried to reason w/the admin in the past to no avail. In fact many of us put a great hearfelt effort into it.:(
I used to think my H could change some of his ways, but I have come to realize he either can't or won't. He would lose everything, money, family, rather than change.
Bob refused to change and babble has wilted.
He seems unable to take in what babblers tell him.
He lost all his deputies.
But he doesn't change :(
My H is a nice guy, but is nearly impossible to live with.
Proly Bob is a nice guy, but I can't live with how he runs this site.
Unfortunate, but that seems to be the way it is.
I suppose I hope something will change. Tho I won't fully trust this site even then for a long time to come.
But who knows...
Additionally there has been other issues http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20100714/msgs/955337.html
for example.
Bobs focus is undoubtedly to flog this site at all costs w/o concern as to whether if affects the quality for posters...I honestly just don't understand him at all.
Good luck....
Posted by olivia12 on September 27, 2010, at 14:33:12
In reply to Re: what might help » olivia12, posted by twinleaf on September 27, 2010, at 14:13:31
Well, I never clicked on "like" for either of them and so the default remains private, right? It would be extremely weird should any of this be sent to other accounts unless I was so into sharing that I opted for that.
Posted by olivia12 on September 27, 2010, at 14:45:02
In reply to Re: what might help, posted by muffled on September 27, 2010, at 14:31:44
I am more confused than ever now. If one doesn't want to be involved in facebook/twitter exchanges then do not click on the link. I have no idea what all of the fear over lack of privacy is about!
Posted by muffled on September 27, 2010, at 15:35:08
In reply to Re: what might help » muffled, posted by olivia12 on September 27, 2010, at 14:45:02
> I am more confused than ever now. If one doesn't want to be involved in facebook/twitter exchanges then do not click on the link. I have no idea what all of the fear over lack of privacy is about!
*LOL, its a long and sordid story.
But at one time this site was quite busy and we developed a close knit group of people. People came and went and new people came and were welcomed and it was good.
The site was always searchable by google, which makes it very easy to find.
However for some reason unbeknownst to me, Bob felt the need to add the buttons that make it easy, and puts it in your face, that you can just click and post posts to facebook/tweets etc.
This could have been done before, but would have requiered much more effort, eg cutting and pasting, or copying links etc. This is much more of a conscious action than just clicking a button.
So anyways, we had felt reasonably safe here and would post about how we were doing etc, but now I am reluctant, cuz its just waaaay too easy to spread stuff around that I post. Whether on a thread of my own or someone elses. Bob in fact seems to be actively interested in spreading babble as far and wide as he can....and I don't know why??? It certainly hasn't made it a busier place....just more scarey.
Also, the posts are all archived here forever, they are not deleted after a time. As well, Bob will seldom remove posts, even if they are very hurtful and causing ongoing probs for someone.
As well, there is a possibility we will be 'studied' becuase that is what Bob(the owner) does and has in the past.
I post on a diff site, that is googlable, but doesn't archive posts, doesn't encourage posts to be placed elsewhere. So it feels more private, though we are all still careful there as it is the net.
However, there we feel more like we are talking in a restaraunt, rather than having what were are saying displayed on some large screen TV in the street....
THAT is the difference.
Its also in HOW Bob brought it into being. Most were against it, and spent much time expressing why etc, but still he did it, and he has done things like this in the past. The people that made babble, babble didn't seem to matter to him, he only cared about the 'bigger picture'. Which is why most babblers bailed on him.
Hope that answers your question.
Posted by olivia12 on September 27, 2010, at 15:51:04
In reply to Re: what might help, posted by muffled on September 27, 2010, at 15:35:08
Thank you, Muff. However, if you don't wish to partake in FB/twitter, just don't click on the links. I didn't and feel that my privacy is respected.
Posted by Dinah on September 27, 2010, at 17:03:23
In reply to Re: what might help » muffled, posted by olivia12 on September 27, 2010, at 15:51:04
> Thank you, Muff. However, if you don't wish to partake in FB/twitter, just don't click on the links. I didn't and feel that my privacy is respected.
For the record, the links aren't just for you to post your own posts elsewhere. Anyone can use the links to post your post anywhere they wish. The links have numbers next to them. On at least one of your posts in this thread, there's a number next to the Facebook link that shows at least one person clicked that link. It doesn't mean that they necessarily followed through and posted it anywhere. But someone, either you or someone else, used the button.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20100714/msgs/963975.html
Posted by muffled on September 27, 2010, at 17:25:08
In reply to Re: what might help, posted by Dinah on September 27, 2010, at 17:03:23
> > Thank you, Muff. However, if you don't wish to partake in FB/twitter, just don't click on the links. I didn't and feel that my privacy is respected.
>
> For the record, the links aren't just for you to post your own posts elsewhere. Anyone can use the links to post your post anywhere they wish. The links have numbers next to them. On at least one of your posts in this thread, there's a number next to the Facebook link that shows at least one person clicked that link. It doesn't mean that they necessarily followed through and posted it anywhere. But someone, either you or someone else, used the button.
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20100714/msgs/963975.html
>
>*Thx Dinah, I think alot of people are not clear on that.
Posted by muffled on September 27, 2010, at 17:26:04
In reply to Re: what might help, posted by muffled on September 27, 2010, at 17:25:08
just testing...
Posted by PartlyCloudy on September 30, 2010, at 7:26:22
In reply to I have an idea for Babble, posted by Deneb on July 2, 2010, at 15:03:50
Dr Bob,
How about a decision or declaration from you regarding this proposal of a point system for posts?Have you reached a decision? I hope you'll agree, from looking at the length and emotional tone of this thread, that the Babble community is seeking resolution here.
A word from you regarding whether or not a point system will be instituted would seem to be suitable.
Thank you
pc
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 3, 2010, at 13:08:17
In reply to what might help, posted by twinleaf on September 22, 2010, at 20:10:30
> communications by the moderator are that poor and inaccurate.
Would anyone be willing to try to show twinleaf how she might rephrase the above or to encourage her to apologize? You may have the power to help her avoid being blocked again.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 3, 2010, at 13:08:55
In reply to Re: what might help, posted by muffled on September 27, 2010, at 15:35:08
> these people's strong/ heartfelt/ sometimes-frantic/ clearly-put-forth requests were overridden. They might have been "heard" but they weren't acted on.
>
> I'd like it if the wishes of a HUGE number of participants here were respected. To me, in the case I mention, the wishes of a vast number of members were just ignored.
>
> KathI value input even when I don't act on it. At the same time, a quote I saw the other day:
> > "If I had asked my customers what they wanted," Ford said, "they would have said a faster horse."
--
> The site was always searchable by google, which makes it very easy to find.
> Bob felt the need to add the buttons that make it easy, and puts it in your face, that you can just click and post posts to facebook/tweets etc.
> This could have been done before, but would have requiered much more effort, eg cutting and pasting, or copying links etc. This is much more of a conscious action than just clicking a button.
> there we feel more like we are talking in a restaraunt, rather than having what were are saying displayed on some large screen TV in the street....
>
> muffledClicking a button is easier than cutting and pasting, but not doing anything is even easier than clicking a button, and not doing anything is what's required for posts to be displayed on Google's large screen. You can hide the buttons, and maybe make it feel more like a restaurant here, but that may be a false sense of security:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20100321/msgs/951109.html
I think there's more concern now than there used to be about "the perils of the early digital age". Among "a great many people", not just Babblers:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20100714/msgs/955800.html
Maybe one difference here is that someone else can be seen as responsible.
Bob
Posted by olivia12 on October 3, 2010, at 16:19:01
In reply to Re: being blocked again, posted by Dr. Bob on October 3, 2010, at 13:08:17
Frankly, I find the idea of blocks to be condescending and a bit over the top, Doc Bob. I know your intentions are good, but we are all adults and so maybe the "time-outs" do not ring well with those on this site. Yes, the MI are fragile, but isn't everyone? The "normal" adult population does not do well with criticism and such. Disrespectful posts should be addressed, but maybe just a "wow, you are so not nice!" would suffice. Is just IMO.
Posted by twinleaf on October 3, 2010, at 16:28:15
In reply to to conclude....., posted by twinleaf on September 23, 2010, at 15:44:21
I will be glad to withdraw that sentence. It's a strange experience to have you overlook the many positive things I said (very truthfully) about your work here, in favor of preparing to block me for a year over a very tiny issue which probably only you have difficulty with. It would be wonderful if you would address some of the other more important issues which I discussed. These are the larger issues which concern everyone here. We do not expect that you will do things the way we ask, necessarily, but an honest, mutually respectful discussion would do wonders for the morale of Babble.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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