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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 36. Go back in thread:
Posted by Ezmoney on July 17, 2005, at 22:03:26
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by nolvas on July 17, 2005, at 19:38:12
Have you read about the right amygdala and the role it plays in creating fear and panic?It stores fear memories.Diffrent brain chemicals over activate it,like CRF and NE.Stress can cause panic attacks to return by causeing the release of NE and CRF.ACTH helps stop the release of Ne by attaching to receptors in the LC.Ne stimulates the hypoyhalmus to release CRF.This causes the synpathic nervous system to be turned on.This activates various brain centers that cause your panic symptoms.You can find all of this on the net.The amygdala is also overstimulated by CRF and Ne.The PKC enzyme is overactive.It needs to be inhibited.Also you need to stop NE and CRf release.In people with panic attacks ,the sympathtic nervous system turns on but does not turn off.
Posted by nolvas on July 18, 2005, at 3:06:24
In reply to Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by Ezmoney on July 17, 2005, at 18:27:14
I have read about the amygdala's role in panic disorder, but not in as much detail as you have.
So what herbs, vitamins, minerals etc are you using?
And what specific effect do they have on the brain areas you mention?
Posted by Ezmoney on July 18, 2005, at 12:09:57
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by nolvas on July 18, 2005, at 3:06:24
I got the most good out of fish oil,flax oil,inositol and choline.Also deep breathing exercises,relaxion exercises,and exposure.It takes about a year of working on it everyday.You need to inhibit PKC.Also learn to use the orbitol frontal cortex to stop panic attacks.Activation of the OFC deactvates the right amygdala.Activation one brain region inactivates another.Visulisation activates the OFC.I have many good books on all of this and the net is full of info on it.It takes a lot of work and effort.It does not work overnite.Exposure is very hard but it must be done .It is the onlyway to stop fear menories in the amygdala.Just like a phobia ,panic can come back if you come under a lot of stress.Stress causes the release of nE and cRF which activate PKC in the amygdala. New research says,people with panic,have a shortage of T1a se receptors.They turn off the panic signal.The T2a se receptor turns it on.SSRI drugs downgrade t2a se receptors. new research says overactivity of PKC is seen in panic,ocd,depression and bi-polar.A drug that inhibits PKC only,stops mania cold. All people with panic are hyperventilated and they feel dizzzy and off balance. Do not know if amygdala is defective or if panic causes fear memories to be formed.
Posted by nolvas on July 18, 2005, at 16:32:09
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by Ezmoney on July 18, 2005, at 12:09:57
It's all interesting stuff, after looking up CRF1 and PKC on the net, I can see that drugs are been produced to block PKC and others are being created to antagonise CRF1. Both types of drugs are anxiolytic don't cause sedation or affect alertness or cognitive abilities.
The current drugs for anxiety are crude and it would be progress to see entirely new drugs for treating anxiety.
SSRIs make Panic disorder worse for me. I've never lasted long enough to see if they actually help, feeling worse isn't my idea of a decent treatment.
Benzo's work great for me, they are prescribed very short term and obviously are not the answer as they are no good for long term management of this condition.I've recently started taking a a liquid supplement of Omega 3,6 and 9 and this has had a marked effect improving my mood and lessening my anxiety.
I've tried Theanine, Phenibut (nasty stuff, felt dizzy for ages and doped up, wasn't anxious, but still not pleasant), Bacopa, Passiflora, Taurine, Sceletium, Relora, Rhodiola and Niacinamide. There's only been one study on Inositol for panic disorder as far as I know and they used a large amount 12-18grams. I did read somewhere that you can drastically reduce the amount of Inositol if you add IP6.
Nothing has the effect of diazepam or alprazolam in reducing anxiety sufficiently for me, except the omega oils seem to lower the anxiety and improve my mood and I'm able to cope in panic causing situations better. I will research Omega oils and their effects (if any) on CRF, PKC etc
Posted by Declan on July 18, 2005, at 18:09:17
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by nolvas on July 18, 2005, at 16:32:09
Hello Nolvas
If I could get theanine cheaply I'd take a lot of it. I liked it, it felt good for my sense of irritation/agitation.
I don't imagine bacopa was much good for you. How *did* you find it? With me it disturbed my sleep and maybe, if I remember correctly, it agitated me a little.
Declan
Posted by nolvas on July 18, 2005, at 18:51:04
In reply to Panic, Theanine, Bacopa, posted by Declan on July 18, 2005, at 18:09:17
Bacopa seemed to work, I felt like laughing at things more, but the longer I took it the more agitated I became. Sceletium seems to have effects like SSRIs and agitates me.
I have tried Theanine in powdered form from BAC and bulknutrition, it's effects are very minimal for me. I'm guessing I would have to take a gram or two to feel anything.
I've also tried Kava Kava a few brands, I think the only stuff that really works is from say konakavafarm from what I've heard. It would be useful for days when I feel wired, that wired feeling is probably the cells in the brain firing off all the time and I know that I'm really susceptible to panic attacks when I get this wired feeling. Other days I feel quite confident that I won't panic.
A lot of effects are hard to judge, some of it is real and some is in the mind. With something like a benzo you have no doubt it works as you can't help notice the effects, other stuff is more subtle. At present I can only say that Omega oils seem to be helping a lot with anxiety and this wasn't something I was expecting.
I don't expect any new pharmaceuticals for anxiety /panic disorder for a few years yet. The current anxiolytics I feel are crude.
Have you checked bulknutrition for Theanine? BAC stopped shipping internationally so I use bulknutrition, it doesn't have the range, but has the main things I'm looking at.
Posted by Ezmoney on July 19, 2005, at 18:21:20
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by nolvas on July 18, 2005, at 16:32:09
The T2a recepters must be downgraded.This causes anxiety to increase.T2a turns it on and T1a turns it off.
Posted by Ezmoney on July 19, 2005, at 18:56:18
In reply to Re: Panic, Theanine, Bacopa, posted by nolvas on July 18, 2005, at 18:51:04
THe fish oil,flax oil and lethicin caused the panic attacks to stop .I could go places and do things again without panic.The sympatheic nervous system causes most all of your symptoms.Hyperventilation is a big problem.I belive that dopamine levels may be a problem with extreme anxiety.They are with OCD.I got all symptoms to stop without drugs.Panic,OCd and depression were gone.
Posted by sleepygirl on July 19, 2005, at 22:55:32
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by Ezmoney on July 17, 2005, at 22:03:26
I'm sorry, what's the PKC enzyme? I think I actually understood everything else (sort of) thanks for posting this info, it's very interesting :-)
Posted by nolvas on July 20, 2005, at 5:09:43
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by sleepygirl on July 19, 2005, at 22:55:32
An article about PKC and anxiety
www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/medizin_gesundheit/bericht-13335.html
An article about CRF1 and anxiety
www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ben/cdtcnsnd/2002/00000001/00000005/art00002
Astressin a CRF antagonist
www.biopsychiatry.com/astressin.htm
Posted by Ezmoney on July 20, 2005, at 13:25:40
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by sleepygirl on July 19, 2005, at 22:55:32
IT is part of the second messenger system and controls the release of brain chemicals and prolongs SE in the synapse.PKA controls the reuptake of SE.PKA and PKC are belived to be defective in OCD.THe SE stays in the synapse too long and the signal from the caudate is not terminated.This is why you cannot stop thinking about something or being prompted to do something ,like washing your hands.Signal duration seems to be a big problem in mental illness.
Posted by nolvas on July 20, 2005, at 17:37:32
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by Ezmoney on July 20, 2005, at 13:25:40
I certainly notice the signal duration effects when I have anxious days. My mind seems hyped up and over excited and everything seems to go too fast.
The mind and body are intrinsically linked, did abnormal thought processes cause the brain to malfunction? Or was a malfunction in the brain the cause of the abnormal thinking which caused a vicious cycle. It's a chicken and the egg sort of situation. At present I think it's a bit of both. Maybe one triggers the other and either can be the initial cause of the problems.
Posted by Ezmoney on July 20, 2005, at 20:54:50
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by nolvas on July 20, 2005, at 17:37:32
You need to read about NE .You will find that a raceing mind is due to high levels of NE.One Ne receptor releases Ne and the other one Stops it.Ne and dopamine are closely related.I am 100% sure it is a bain disorder.Choline can stop it.
Posted by Spriggy on July 20, 2005, at 22:49:40
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by Ezmoney on July 20, 2005, at 20:54:50
Pretend you are talking to a kindergartner and please explain what NE is and all the other capitalized letters that make no sense to this 5 year old. ROFL
I am fascinated with this conversation even though I have absolutely no idea what in the world you all are talking about.
I have anxiety and occasional panic attacks. I definitely have anxious thoughts and am "high strung."
If I can decode those letters, I might can get some help for myself. LOL
Posted by Ezmoney on July 21, 2005, at 1:17:17
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by Spriggy on July 20, 2005, at 22:49:40
Read about the amgdala and it,s role in causeing anxiety,panic and phobias.Joseph Le Doux at New York University did all the work on it.Social anxiety also comes from the amgdala.A hyperactive right amygdala.The amygdala stores fear memories.It is very powerful.It will take you over.Also study the sympathtic nervous system and the parasympathetic nervous system.You can learn to stop panic attacks with brain exercises.
Posted by nolvas on July 21, 2005, at 17:03:18
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by Spriggy on July 20, 2005, at 22:49:40
CRF = Corticotropon Releasing Hormone
NE = Norepinephrine
ACTH= Adrenocorticotropic Hormone
PKC = Protein Kinase C
LC = Locus Coeruleus
T1a and T2a are Serotonin Receptors
OFC = Orbital Front Cortex
PKA = Protein Kinase A
DAG = Diacylglycerol
I think they are all correct
Posted by nolvas on July 21, 2005, at 17:08:39
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by Ezmoney on July 20, 2005, at 20:54:50
> You need to read about NE .You will find that a raceing mind is due to high levels of NE.One Ne receptor releases Ne and the other one Stops it.Ne and dopamine are closely related.I am 100% sure it is a bain disorder.Choline can stop it.
I bought some Lecithin today, is that a good enough source of Choline?
1 Dose = Phosphatidyl Choline 886mg
Phosphatidyl Inositol 504mg
Choline 130mg
Inositol 100mg
Phosphorus 110mgIt says to take this dose 3 times a day, or should I buy a seperate Choline supplement?
Posted by Ezmoney on July 21, 2005, at 20:52:32
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by nolvas on July 21, 2005, at 17:08:39
lethicin is fine.Read about the orbitol frontal cortex .You are trying to turn on the parasympathtic nervous system .It stops anxiety.The brain chemical ,atch, turns on the parasympathic nervous system.Ne turns on the sympathic nervous system.Read about it.
Posted by Ezmoney on July 21, 2005, at 21:11:38
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by nolvas on July 21, 2005, at 17:08:39
Acetylcholine is the brain chemical that turns on the parasympathtic nervous system.SSRI drugs can block it and cause brain fog.Your brain cannot work without it.It does many things .The hypothalmus is effected by NE and acetylcholine.Deep breathing effects the hypothalmus. Overstimulation of T2a receptors by ssri drugs can cause anxiety.Also cause mania.
Posted by spriggy on July 21, 2005, at 23:20:05
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by Ezmoney on July 21, 2005, at 21:11:38
YES.. SSRI's caused me to be anxious and caused me to be put into a manic state (and yet I did have brain fog along with the mania). that makes perfect sense.
Can you tell me in in the simplest form HOW or WHAT to do (or take) to target this anxiety?
I looked up as much as I could but didn't understand half of it.
Remember..... blonde here. ROFL
Posted by Declan on July 22, 2005, at 1:49:32
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by spriggy on July 21, 2005, at 23:20:05
Let me guess what ROFL means. Rolled onto the floor laughing??
Declan
Posted by nolvas on July 22, 2005, at 6:32:03
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by spriggy on July 21, 2005, at 23:20:05
New Anxiolytic drugs based on PKC, CRF agonists will take time to test and it will be a long while I feel before any new anxiolytic drugs come along.
With the exception of benzodiazepine drugs, all other anti anxiety drugs are anti depressants. So we need something new and that targets the anxiety causing pathways better, PKC, CRF, CCK4 and Adenosine agonist agents are being currently researched and one or more of these may be a step forward in treating anxiety/panic and other mental disorders.
So what can you do in the meantime? Well I'm currently taking Omega 3,6,9 oils and Lecithin Granules (very cheap). I am also learning relaxation techniques and using some NLP techniques which are very useful. I recommend Paul McKenna's Success for Life CDs, Brian Tracy's - The Science of Self Confidence CDs and a great book to read so I've heard is Shad Helmstetter - What to Say When You Talk to Your Self, I have this on order and can't wait to read it.
Posted by nolvas on July 22, 2005, at 6:47:23
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by nolvas on July 22, 2005, at 6:32:03
I just want to make an important change to my previous posting, they are antagonist agents and not agonist.
Posted by Ezmoney on July 22, 2005, at 14:52:42
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by nolvas on July 22, 2005, at 6:32:03
Read Mapping The Brain by Rita Carter. mental illness is a medical mystery.The cause and cure are unknown.Untill lithium was discovered there was nothing for manic depression.It only works in 50% of cases.Also it is toxic.Maybe space aliens will land with a cure.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 24, 2005, at 14:58:24
In reply to Re: Free of Panic Disorder with research, posted by Ezmoney on July 22, 2005, at 14:52:42
> Read Mapping The Brain by Rita Carter.
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book, movie, or music without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
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