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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 4 of 4. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Jimmyboy on September 14, 2009, at 9:01:42
I ran across an interesting hypothesis on panic attacks and the DHEA : cortisol ratio . I'm not sure if it has any merit but its an interesting theory for sure .
Basically it says if your DHEA is low compared to your cortisol that it predisposes you to panic episodes , the relationship also entails prolactin levels which are influenced by DHEA as well. Higher prolactin durin attacks = more severe panic symptoms.
I am prone to panic attacks and my blood test earlier this yr indicated very low levels of DHEA-S. Everytime I tried to supplement with DHEA I believe I took way too much , about 50 mgs at a time( which would boost levels really high in a short period of time). Whereas later I found out a health male only puts out around 30 mgs over the course of a whole day.
Anyway, the consistant response I got from DHEA supplements at that dose were consistant and strange. I am usually a very stoic type person but about 30 mins after the DHEA I would get extremely sad and emotional and many times start uncontrollably crying. This is very very uncharacteristic of me. Anyone have any idea why that may occur?
The paper is at the following link :
http://www.anthropogeny.com/A%20Hypothetical%20Explanation%20of%20Panic%20Disorder.htm
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Abstract:
Panic attacks may result from severe reduction of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) in a person of low DHEA with normal or increased levels of cortisol. That is, an excessive ratio of cortisol to DHEA occurs which extinguishes the effects of unstable DHEA and magnifies the effects of cortisol. Prolactin increases during panic attacks and is correlated with attack severity. That is, prolactin increases to stimulate DHEA, but the response is inadequate to stabilize the DHEA to cortisol ratio and inhibit prolactin production. Therefore, prolactin remains elevated during an attack. Panic attacks occur when the effects of excessive cortisol excite prolactin stimulation of DHEA in a person who cannot respond with adequate DHEA.Key words: cortisol, cholecystokinin, dehydroepiandrosterone, panic disorder, prolactin
Posted by Dima on September 14, 2009, at 22:34:27
In reply to DHEA : cortisol ratio - possible link to panic, posted by Jimmyboy on September 14, 2009, at 9:01:42
Sounds interesting. I tried DHEA a few times and didn't notice much. I've had a few panic attacks, but none when I was sober. A couple times with marijuana and once with mushrooms. I wonder if they think the DHEA to cortisol ratio relates to GAD and other anxiety disorders as well.
Posted by tea on December 28, 2009, at 15:20:41
In reply to DHEA : cortisol ratio - possible link to panic, posted by Jimmyboy on September 14, 2009, at 9:01:42
Hi Jimmy,
I agree that 50mg is way too much for anyone I have found so far., and yet it is the dose they seem to prescribe esp for males.
I found for myself 7.5mg was too much and I'm better on less, but I only take it occasionally at present and usually only 2.5mg to 3.75mg once a day at the most(it's mixed in with my multi). I'm female males could probably take twice as much:) Speaking/chatting etc with many females over the years the anecdotal evidence is 25mg is way too much in females. All sorts of problems caused, but I forget what now!
Re prolactin, I listened to a presentation of some studies on prolactin /cortisol I think in birds and aggressive behaviour etc(destruction of nest?)- sorry I also forget this(about 6 years ago).
I do vaguely recall that prolactin is a desired response to the high cortisol? I'll try to do a quick search for the study but don't hold much hope in locating. I found it interesting as nothing else had touched on the subject beforehand.. but yes its linked in there for sure!
Posted by tea on December 29, 2009, at 1:49:30
In reply to Re: DHEA : cortisol ratio - possible link to panic, posted by tea on December 28, 2009, at 15:20:41
> > Re prolactin, I listened to a presentation of some studies on prolactin /cortisol I think in birds and aggressive behaviour etc(destruction of nest?)- sorry I also forget this(about 6 years ago).
> I do vaguely recall that prolactin is a desired response to the high cortisol? I'll try to do a quick search for the study but don't hold much hope in locating. I found it interesting as nothing else had touched on the subject beforehand.. but yes its linked in there for sure!
>>OK found the talk. It says(and these were respected scientific lecturers)..."because of the known inhibition of PRL by glucocorticoids, and the inverse relationship between glucocorticoid secretion and body condition, we evaluated the the relationship between the body condition ...and plasma PRL levels"
Basically the poor condition birds had lower PRL levels by the 2nd shift of incubation and it was suggested that the as PRL promotes breeding behaviour the low PRL probably plays a role in nest abandonment when body reserves were low"
so nothing mentioned about DHEA, only it seemed to be saying that cortisol higher would inhibit prolactin? as if it was a known fact-
opposite of what you are saying(or the article you are referring to was suggesting). Then again it is birds, but there usually is similarities between species to a point. So my apologies for that! I'm not thinking well, so I will try not to respond in future!BTW I guess you were referring to http://www.anthropogeny.com/A%20Hypothetical%20Explanation%20of%20Panic%20Disorder.htm
abstract: "Panic attacks may result from severe reduction of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) in a person of low DHEA with normal or increased levels of cortisol. That is, an excessive ratio of cortisol to DHEA occurs which extinguishes the effects of unstable DHEA and magnifies the effects of cortisol. Prolactin increases during panic attacks and is correlated with attack severity. That is, prolactin increases to stimulate DHEA, but the response is inadequate to stabilize the DHEA to cortisol ratio and inhibit prolactin production. Therefore, prolactin remains elevated during an attack. Panic attacks occur when the effects of excessive cortisol excite prolactin stimulation of DHEA in a person who cannot respond with adequate DHEA"Sorry I'm not capable of commenting, so I won't try, but I think anything invovling stress and panic should consider adrenaline/noradrenaline as well as cortisol - so I don't think I'd give it that much credit? So NO comment(other than to show it may disagree with glucocorticoids suppressing PRL? Beats me and sorry for incorrect info in above post
PS I gave up on trying to work out how it all fits together as there are way too many hormones, receptors, neurotransmitters and you just can't consider them much individually or even in small groups except for a few basics under certain condtitons..and they haven't even "discovered" them all as yet.. so I think it's best just to see how things work with you or others(especially blood relatives helps!) as genetics also plays a part in how all this stuff works:-) Still I do understand the desire to figure out at least a bit of it all.
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