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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on April 20, 2004, at 15:46:38
Towards the end of my session today, I told my therapist that I had just realized that I hold him at arms length in some ways and that it had surprised the heck out of me because I knew I told him just about everything and I thought that meant I made myself totally open and vulnerable to him.
But that I still withheld some trust, that I didn't trust him fully. That there was always a running commentary in my brain of all the reasons it would be foolish to trust him. And that some of the reasons sounded pretty reasonable.
And he said they probably were reasonable, and that it wasn't bad not to trust him fully since he wasn't fully trustworthy. That he was human. He said that it was up to me if I felt like I needed to trust him more than I did. And that he had never thought much about it, because he realized that I did trust him more than I trusted most people and he focussed on the ways I was open and vulnerable with him. But that's as far as he would explain what he meant about not being trustworthy. He wouldn't give even one example of the ways he might not be trustworthy. And that leaves me wondering if he means that the running commentary in my head is right, or if he means something less ominous. Because the running commentary is pretty negative. :( And he just won't tell me. He just says it's my choice how much I trust him. Which is soooooo HIM. Arrrrgggghhhhh!!!!!
Posted by LG04 on April 20, 2004, at 16:12:50
In reply to Darn stupid thing to be upset about, posted by Dinah on April 20, 2004, at 15:46:38
Dinah, that would drive me crazy too. One of those therapist kinds of answers...vague...anyway I sympathize with you. Also, I have a running commentary in my head about not trusting my therapist as well.
I can tell you something my therapist has said a few times that have helped me. It's come up when I've told her that I want her to be perfect so that I can know that she'll never hurt me. (isn't that what trust is largely about...not wanting to get hurt?) She said that people sometimes hurt each other, that it's inevitable in relationships since we are human. And that we feel feelings about it, talk about it (ideally), learn from it, and hopefully move forward. She told me that she would never INTENTIONALLY hurt me but that probably it will happen that she will unintentionally hurt me. (and she has)
We also talked about the degrees of hurting someone.
I don't have any outright advice to give, but thought that her comments might be relevent to your situation. And just wanting to tell you that I can understand your frustration and it's not at all darn or stupid.
LG
Posted by coral on April 20, 2004, at 16:20:53
In reply to Darn stupid thing to be upset about, posted by Dinah on April 20, 2004, at 15:46:38
Dear Dinah,
How do you define trust?
Some people define trust as a person always being there, saying/doing the right thing, all of the time. For me, such a definition of trust is a prescription for disaster. My sister has difficulty equating human foibles in her trust belief system. If she's hurt by someone (for whatever reason, intentional or not), her trust is irrepairably damaged.
I don't mean to compare you with my sister. However, she's the first person who pops in my head when the issue of trust comes up.
Could your therapist be creating leeway in his relationship for you, allowing for the possibility of human error?
Also, the question of dependence comes up with trust. As an example, I'm totally dependent on my dentist (!) when he starts a procedure but it took me a long time to get to that point w/him.
I trust my therapist to be competent but I reserve the final decision as to what's best for me.
Rambling here... sorry
Coral
Posted by Dinah on April 20, 2004, at 16:39:04
In reply to Re: Darn stupid thing to be upset about, posted by coral on April 20, 2004, at 16:20:53
Well, I hope that's what he means because that sort of not being trustworthy isn't what I'm worried about. I *know* he's not perfect and lets me down all the time on that level. When I say it, I mean it on a much deeper level. That secretly he detests me, or that he wouldn't think twice about terminating me if it suited his interests, or that.... fill in the blanks. All sorts of awful things. And when he won't answer what he means when he says I may be right not to trust him, that makes all those things seem more likely. Sigh.
I think I'm going to have to be annoyingly persistent about this.
Posted by Raindancer on April 20, 2004, at 18:21:17
In reply to Darn stupid thing to be upset about, posted by Dinah on April 20, 2004, at 15:46:38
Dinah, it seems to me that your T is both honest and trustworthy. I think he was just telling you that no relationship can be perfect all the time. I adore my T but I know that even so I have put the boot in from time to time (mostly to protect myself) and he has also hurt me on occasions (through forgetfulness or clumsiness), but we fight for the relationship and it holds. Therapeutic relationships are precious and special for that very reason, because they are sometimes difficult and painful and sheer hard work - perhaps even more so than a marriage. You have been seeing your T frequently for nine years and i think that speaks for itself. His admission of possibly being sometimes untrustworthy doesn't mean that he harbours bad thoughts or personnifies what's going on in your head, but that he is aware that he is human and fallible. Trust is always a risk but it has many rewards if we can only reach out with faith (and crossed fingers!!) . You've been rather low in the past few days. I hope you will soon feel much better. With thoughts and lots of good wishes and hugs. R.
Posted by DaisyM on April 20, 2004, at 19:11:36
In reply to Darn stupid thing to be upset about, posted by Dinah on April 20, 2004, at 15:46:38
Dinah,
You said he would say something like that! So you know him well.Don't over-think this. I agree with the others. He is trying to tell you that he is human and has human failings. Trust is such an odd thing and I don't think it can be universally applied. You don't simply trust a person or not trust them. For example, I trust my Therapist to not tell my secrets but I don't trust (yet?) that I can dump ALL of my feelings out on him at one time. I still separate things, edit and do it in pieces. I trust that my husband will not fool around on me, but I don't trust that he can keep all my secrets.
So we apply different levels of trust to different aspects of individuals. You trust your Therapist with your personal feelings but you still don't "trust" that he won't hurt you. I think to completely open yourself up and be that vulnerable goes against our self-protective/preservation instincts. No matter who it is and how long you've been seeing them.
So, try not to be upset. Maybe you are learning something new about yourself? Maybe what you are really saying is that you want something new to trust in from your Therapist - a new area to work on maybe?
Posted by fallsfall on April 20, 2004, at 21:33:23
In reply to Re: Darn stupid thing to be upset about, posted by DaisyM on April 20, 2004, at 19:11:36
"he wasn't fully trustworthy. That he was human."
I agree with the others, he is probably just saying that everyone lets people down from time to time. But ask him about it. Talking about it will only help.
Posted by deirdrehbrt on April 21, 2004, at 8:01:42
In reply to Re: Darn stupid thing to be upset about, posted by fallsfall on April 20, 2004, at 21:33:23
Dinah,
I agree with everyone else here in that you have a therapist who is putting your recovery first. It seems that he is doing everything that he can to do his job well.
In any human relationship though, there will be pain. Some of it will be unintentional, but some of it might be, for whatever reason, intentional, or at least expected. It doesn't mean that we WANT to hurt someone else, but that with what is happening, we can't avoid hurting someone.
I think that when your T is saying that he might let you down, it doesn't mean that he WANTS to hurt you. Perhaps it means that he won't understand you when you think he should, maybe he will forget to tell you that you appointment had to be changed, maybe he won't see the pain that you are hiding from him that you secretly want him to see.
We all place our T's on some sort of pedestal. They are the ones who are going to make us well. They are like god recreating Adam or Eve inside of us. We can't heal our lives, but they can. How can we come to terms that God, or the Goddess might have some of our human foibles or peccadillos. Maybe that's what we are so afraid of, that if we see their flaws, maybe they won't be able to help us.
I have certain requirements that I need in a therapist, maybe some of them are unreasonable; They need to be older than me. They need to be at least as smart as me, preferably much smarter. They need to have lots of experience.
I have one or two unreasonable requirements; I can't be able to BS them. They have to always see that I am hiding somethign. I've gotten over these as I realized that I am an expert at BS and hiding things. That's my job to get over. My T knows I do this, after BS-ing and wasting a year of therapy, and watches for it.
I guess we all have both sorts of requirements. You don't have anything to be upset about, it's just another bit of learning, and you are a fabulous learner.
Dee.
Posted by All Done on April 21, 2004, at 9:14:00
In reply to Re: Darn stupid thing to be upset about - LG04 » coral, posted by Dinah on April 20, 2004, at 16:39:04
> When I say it, I mean it on a much deeper level. That secretly he detests me, or that he wouldn't think twice about terminating me if it suited his interests, or that.... fill in the blanks. All sorts of awful things.
Dinah,
Did you express your concerns using specific examples such as these? If not, maybe you should so he has a better sense of what you mean by trustworthy.
Take care,
All Done
Posted by pegasus on April 21, 2004, at 11:08:27
In reply to Darn stupid thing to be upset about, posted by Dinah on April 20, 2004, at 15:46:38
Dinah, I can soooo sympathize with your reaction to this! And I agree with everyone else that he probably just meant that human beings make mistakes, and he'll probably make some.
I can see how aggravating that it might be that he wouldn't give you an example of how he might be untrustworthy. But I can give you an example:My T had to move to another state for family reasons. It sucked for me, but it was the right thing for him to do. If I'd had to make the choice for him, I'd have chosen the same thing he did. So, while it was the best thing he could do, it was a bad thing for him to do *for me*. So, from my perspective, he betrayed my trust in him.
Having to make these types of crazy difficult decisions is part of life. And we all hurt people in our lives at times by decisions that we have to make, even when they're the right decisions. I think my T hated that he had to hurt me and his other clients. I hope your T never has to do anything that hurtful to you, but I'm guessing that's the type of possibility that he was refering to.
And this is *totally* not a stupid thing to be upset about. This is right at the core of therapy! Figuring out how (or how much) to trust them is IMHO the hardest part.
pegasus
Posted by Pfinstegg on April 21, 2004, at 14:31:26
In reply to Re: Darn stupid thing to be upset about, posted by pegasus on April 21, 2004, at 11:08:27
If I follow, with you, the model my analyst uses with me, the conclusion we would eventually come to is that *one* of my several ego-states is full of distrust, and expects the worst in terms of rejecton, etc. At the same time, *other* ego states are trusting, loving and confident.
He always says that he wants *all of me* in there with him, and, in fact, just told me today that he is pleased with the progress of the therapy because so many more distrustful, angry, hopeless parts of me are involved in the therapy. When I express fears of being disliked by him, or fearing that he wants to get rid of me, I don't get re-assured, but get a response such as, "it's good all these feelings are in here, so we can learn more about them". Invariably, I feel reassured by that, and better able to hold these contradicting ego states in mind at the same time.
I don't know whether this applies, but If we can compare you to me, bringing in more of these fears would be a sign of progress on your part, too. I think acceptance and understanding by your T. are much more important than re-assurances or admissions of fallibility- there's a place for those, too, of course, but perhaps not right now. In any event, keep bringing these feelings up with him!
Posted by Pfinstegg on April 21, 2004, at 15:02:09
In reply to Re: Darn stupid thing to be upset about » pegasus, posted by Pfinstegg on April 21, 2004, at 14:31:26
Posted by Dinah on April 21, 2004, at 15:29:04
In reply to Sorry! Above is for Dinah - Pfinstegg (nm) (nm), posted by Pfinstegg on April 21, 2004, at 15:02:09
I just couldn't be productive because I was obsessing. Again, foolish I know. So I called him to see if he meant what you all suggested he meant rather than what my internal "therapists are just emotional prostitutes" voice means. And he clarified that he indeed did mean that (that he would let me down - not the uglier stuff). So now I can get on with my life without therapy interfering with it.
What I can't understand is why he just didn't say so *in* session. I asked him clearly enough. Sigh. I guess it was one of those errors he was telling me he'll inevitably make. :)
Posted by spoc on April 24, 2004, at 2:29:59
In reply to Re: Followup, posted by Dinah on April 21, 2004, at 15:29:04
It does seem reasonable to me that a different word than "trustworthy" could have been used, before leaving you to ponder. A different word to convey the point that he and everyone is fallible; but one not universally interpreted to imply character or priority shortcomings. Because I do think "untrustworthy" is *never* even merely an ambiguous word, it is a baaad word.
And sorry, now having just seen this and looking back on my posts today, I realize that they were the exact last thing you needed to hear when you've been feeling especially bad lately. And you still made a selfless effort to defend the profession despite your own doubts lately. I apologize if I made anything worse. : (
Posted by Dinah on April 24, 2004, at 3:08:19
In reply to Re: Followup » Dinah, posted by spoc on April 24, 2004, at 2:29:59
No, no. Not all. My therapist was at his best today, and I was rather in the mood to defend his profession. :) Which doesn't mean I don't have my doubts about it.
But it's sweet of you to worry about it.
This is the end of the thread.
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