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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by crushedout on April 22, 2004, at 15:16:01
She reminded me that I had something at the end of the session Monday that we didn't have time for, so I just told her. It was really hard. I felt she was mad at me but she said she wasn't -- just scared. She asked me if I was going to continue to see the other T and I said I didn't know, that we'd left it up in the air. I think she basically told me that she wouldn't continue to see me if I saw the other T -- she didn't think that would be productive. I guess it's good I didn't call the other T to make an appointment for tomorrow because I had been contemplating doing that.
She thinks I feel conflicted about her and am having trouble integrating my positive and negative feelings about her. I don't think that's accurate, but she says she's not in a position to agree with me since I don't open up to her about my feelings about her (which is why she thinks me seeing the second T would be counterproductive: because I would tell the other T those feelings and be even less motivated to tell Ellen -- I actually don't see it working that way and wouldn't want to do that, either, but anyway).
So, she asked me: what do I feel for her? And I told her that I felt longing. It wasn't conflicted at all. She said she thought that my longings weren't attached to her, that some day I could transfer them onto someone else, basically, and I told her that felt impossible. She said I needed to learn to tolerate the longing. She asked me if I wanted it to go away. I said, "Not really. Well, yes, I guess I do, but I want it to go away because I have satisfied it. But I don't even know if that's possible."
Next week I'm supposed to get into specifically what I'm longing for so she can let me know whether it's possible. Scary. I actually meant was it literally possible to satisfy such longings -- that is, even if there weren't any restrictions on what we could do, and she were to do exactly what I wanted her to (cuddle me, sleep with me, etc.), would I actually be satisfied, or is it only a myth in my mind that she has the ability to satisfy my longings? In other words, are my longings actually impossible for anyone to satisfy under any circumstances?
But I think she thought I meant, would she be able to within the boundaries of our relationship. Which I'd also like to know the answer to, but I think I already know she can't. I wonder if she could just hold me, though. That would be nice.
I'm not sure how I feel about the fact that she basically told me I couldn't see the other T and continue to see her at the same time.
Thoughts?
Posted by pinkeye on April 22, 2004, at 15:25:21
In reply to I told Ellen about the consultation today, posted by crushedout on April 22, 2004, at 15:16:01
Hi Crushedout,
I think you are very tortured right now with Ellen. You think too much of her, and not able to get anything from her etc etc.
I would suggest that you take a break from her, just see the other therapist for about 3 - 6 months, get your mind straightened out and then come back to Ellen if possible.
Otherwise I feel you are just going to go down the drain. I don't see how you can work your way through with Ellen. She does not seem capable of handling all the complications that happen with you.
Pinkeye.
Posted by BigFish on April 22, 2004, at 16:39:30
In reply to I told Ellen about the consultation today, posted by crushedout on April 22, 2004, at 15:16:01
> So, she asked me: what do I feel for her? And I told her that I felt longing. It wasn't conflicted at all. She said she thought that my longings weren't attached to her, that some day I could transfer them onto someone else, basically, and I told her that felt impossible. She said I needed to learn to tolerate the longing.Hi crushedout,
I have to say that the fact that these feelings you have are being categorized as transference doesn't seem quite right, especially since you've felt this way for so long. Are there not two people in a consulting room? Could she have unwittingly flirted with you? My T has flirted with me and I want to flirt back! Sometimes I wonder if this is a way for T's to deflect some of the intensity of the clients feelings - and perhaps remove any potential responsibility they have in the situation. [no disrespect toward your t - just speaking generally]
This sounds like a painful situation. As a fellow sufferer of a T-crush, I'm hoping that this turns out a-ok for YOU.
BigFish
Posted by pegasus on April 22, 2004, at 17:50:12
In reply to I told Ellen about the consultation today, posted by crushedout on April 22, 2004, at 15:16:01
Hi crushed,
I'm really glad to hear that you told her. I'm not sure what to think of her response. It does seem reasonable not to see two therapists at once, because neither of them would have the whole picture on what's going on for you, and so they'd both be somewhat handicapped.
Did you ask Ellen about the idea of a consultation with her and another therapist? To me that sounds like it might be helpful in your situation. But it would freak me out if someone suggested it for me, so I would understand if you didn't want to do it.
What about not working with Ellen for a little while, while you work some things out with the other T? Maybe even just a short while; say a month or so. That way you don't have to feel that you're losing Ellen, but you also wouldn't be doubling up on therapy, which she didn't want you to do.
I hope this works out well for you. Are your feelings about Ellen changing at all lately? The tone of your posts has, so I'm wondering.
pegasus
Posted by fallsfall on April 22, 2004, at 19:08:27
In reply to I told Ellen about the consultation today, posted by crushedout on April 22, 2004, at 15:16:01
***Good for you for telling her!
>I felt she was mad at me but she said she wasn't -- just scared.
*** Why was she *scared*?? Scared of what? Why is fear an emotion that is connected with your seeing the other therapist? Is she *afraid* you will leave (I could understand sad, or disappointed)? Is she *afraid* of what the other therapist might find out? "Scared" just seems like an unusual emotion under the circumstances.
*** I believe that it is not unusual for therapists to insist that you have only one therapist at a time. An exception is often made when you see one therapist for individual, and as second for group. But I think that only one individual therapist is a fairly common thing.
> So, she asked me: what do I feel for her? And I told her that I felt longing. It wasn't conflicted at all. She said she thought that my longings weren't attached to her, that some day I could transfer them onto someone else, basically, and I told her that felt impossible. She said I needed to learn to tolerate the longing. She asked me if I wanted it to go away. I said, "Not really. Well, yes, I guess I do, but I want it to go away because I have satisfied it. But I don't even know if that's possible."*** I'm really glad you started having this conversation with her. This is important stuff to say outloud and discuss.
>
> Next week I'm supposed to get into specifically what I'm longing for so she can let me know whether it's possible. Scary. I actually meant was it literally possible to satisfy such longings -- that is, even if there weren't any restrictions on what we could do, and she were to do exactly what I wanted her to (cuddle me, sleep with me, etc.), would I actually be satisfied, or is it only a myth in my mind that she has the ability to satisfy my longings? In other words, are my longings actually impossible for anyone to satisfy under any circumstances?
>
> But I think she thought I meant, would she be able to within the boundaries of our relationship. Which I'd also like to know the answer to, but I think I already know she can't. I wonder if she could just hold me, though. That would be nice.
>
*** Next week will be an important session. It will be helpful to talk about what is real and what is possible and whether you could be satisfied.I think that you and Ellen went in an important direction. It sounds like you are opening up and being very honest with her. That is really important (and really hard!).
Whether you decide to stay with her in the future or not, I think that this discussion is valuable. Good for you!
Posted by crushedout on April 22, 2004, at 22:19:50
In reply to Re: I told Ellen about the consultation today, posted by pinkeye on April 22, 2004, at 15:25:21
You're right, pinkeye, that I'm tortured and everything you said. And I definitely want to consider your suggestion which I think is a good one. But why would I come back to her if I left? What would be the point? I'm just wondering, trying to think it through.To be honest, I don't feel like I *can* leave her, but maybe it will just take me time. Maybe I need to hit bottom with her, or maybe we'll actually work stuff out, who knows? I just feel like it would be very hard to leave.
Posted by crushedout on April 22, 2004, at 22:33:37
In reply to Re: I told Ellen about the consultation today, posted by BigFish on April 22, 2004, at 16:39:30
Thanks, BigFish. I agree in a way that it's not entirely transference (so does my T in fact) but I think it could be partially transference and partially -- what? chemistry? true love? -- I'm not sure what the other side of the coin is.Not only am I sure she has flirted with me, I'm not sure it was unwitting. I think she may have done it wittingly some of the time. And she pointed out when I flirted back. And I do almost have the sense that she started the flirting. But that was a long time ago. I don't understand why she would do that, why Ts would do that in general. It seems pretty twisted, actually.
Posted by crushedout on April 22, 2004, at 22:53:22
In reply to Re: I told Ellen about the consultation today, posted by pegasus on April 22, 2004, at 17:50:12
> I'm really glad to hear that you told her. I'm not sure what to think of her response. It does seem reasonable not to see two therapists at once, because neither of them would have the whole picture on what's going on for you, and so they'd both be somewhat handicapped.Yeah, except that since I haven't been able to talk to Ellen about my feelings about her, she hasn't been getting the whole picture, anyway. And I kind of felt like talking to the other T might actually *help* me have the courage to open up more with Ellen. But I agree that on an ongoing basis, it wouldn't be productive to see two Ts.
> Did you ask Ellen about the idea of a consultation with her and another therapist? To me that sounds like it might be helpful in your situation. But it would freak me out if someone suggested it for me, so I would understand if you didn't want to do it.No, I didn't bring it up, and I'm pretty sure she won't be receptive. But maybe I'll try next time. Do you have any idea how that would work?
> What about not working with Ellen for a little while, while you work some things out with the other T? Maybe even just a short while; say a month or so. That way you don't have to feel that you're losing Ellen, but you also wouldn't be doubling up on therapy, which she didn't want you to do.
I like that idea, sort of. I mean, I kind of hate any idea that means not seeing Ellen, but that sounds like a reasonable compromise. Maybe I'll ask her what she thinks.
> I hope this works out well for you. Are your feelings about Ellen changing at all lately? The tone of your posts has, so I'm wondering.This is a really interesting question. I'm not sure. How has the tone of my posts changed?
I still basically feel desperately in love with Ellen, but I guess seeing the other T made me feel a little bit stronger, less vulnerable. Maybe a little. I'm not sure.
Oh, yes, now I'm remembering: last week, when Ellen seemed so desperate and we had a double session (because *she* wanted to), I felt a lot better. Again, maybe less vulnerable, and she seemed more so.
Posted by crushedout on April 22, 2004, at 22:59:30
In reply to Re: I told Ellen about the consultation today » crushedout, posted by fallsfall on April 22, 2004, at 19:08:27
Falls,I don't know why she was scared. I guess she felt alarmed by the fact that I saw her on Monday and didn't tell her, but she used the word "scared." I'm not sure what would be wrong with feeling scared as opposed to sad or disappointed.
I agree this is an important direction we've taken. And I think it's partly because of my reaching out to other therapists that it's come to pass. It kind of woke her up.
Posted by crushedout on April 22, 2004, at 23:35:40
In reply to Re: I told Ellen about the consultation today » fallsfall, posted by crushedout on April 22, 2004, at 22:59:30
I really needed that consultation, and it was helpful, but it only felt like a beginning. I really wanted to see that woman again and talk more about how I should handle this. I really sort of feel like I may ultimately decide to stay with Ellen, but I need help on committing to that and figuring out how best to make it work.
Now I feel trapped again and I SI'd for the first time in three weeks. I don't think it's a coincidence. I do it when I feel there's no escape. It's a cry for help.
Posted by pegasus on April 22, 2004, at 23:41:36
In reply to Re: I told Ellen about the consultation today » pegasus, posted by crushedout on April 22, 2004, at 22:53:22
Hi crushed,
Sorry, I don't really know how the consultation thing works. But I have heard of people doing it. I guess you make an appointment with a 3rd T and you and your T are essentially the clients. What I'm unclear about is whether you pay the other T and your T for the time, or what. Someone here did it recently. I can't remember who it was, though.
I think your posts have sounded more grounded, and less vulnerable lately. You've sounded to me a little less desperate about your relationship with your T. More in control, and more thoughtful about your relationship. Which is all good.
You know, I agree with falls too about Ellen saying that she was scared. I think her feeling scared makes her sound more like she's not sure she's doing things right, and sad or disappointed would be reactions that might come from a more solid, professional footing. Just my take.
pegasus
Posted by crushedout on April 22, 2004, at 23:42:44
In reply to I need another consultation! (may trigger SI) » crushedout, posted by crushedout on April 22, 2004, at 23:35:40
Posted by crushedout on April 22, 2004, at 23:46:17
In reply to Re: I told Ellen about the consultation today, posted by pegasus on April 22, 2004, at 23:41:36
I always appreciate knowing yours and falls' takes on stuff, so thanks to both of you (all babblers, for that matter). I didn't mean to sound critical. I just question everything.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on April 23, 2004, at 9:59:34
In reply to Re: I told Ellen about the consultation today » pegasus, posted by crushedout on April 22, 2004, at 23:46:17
Crushed,
From what I can tell, you started SIing for the very first time since you have been seeing Ellen? I know this is a recent development and I can't remember you saying you have ever done this before.
To me, just the fact that you are doing this awful thing to your body is an indicator that your relationship with Ellen is not good for you. Am I being unreasonable here? I feel like your mind and body have been sending you unconscious signals for months now that perhaps this relationship is not in your best interest.
Posted by crushedout on April 23, 2004, at 10:26:31
In reply to Re: I told Ellen about the consultation today, posted by Miss Honeychurch on April 23, 2004, at 9:59:34
Yes, you're right Miss Honey. I started SI'ing a couple months ago when Ellen and I began the current crisis we're in. I feel like what set it off was that my mother and I had a terrible fight and I called Ellen on a Saturday and she didn't call me back. And the next week she told me she had been mad at me for needing her. And told me a bunch of stuff about her own mother and was basically unable to give me what I needed.We've been in a sort of mess ever since. But the question I keep asking myself is whether there's a benefit to sorting out this mess? You're right that I SI as a way of expressing my distress about the relationship, but I'm just not sure that means I should abandon the relationship. I'm not sure I can, either. I'm very tenacious, especially when I'm in love.
Ultimately, I could learn something important from sticking around and working it out with Ellen. Or, I may just waste a lot of time and energy. I just don't know how to decide. And right now I feel like she's taken away my option of consulting with this other therapist, and I needed that option.
> Crushed,
>
> From what I can tell, you started SIing for the very first time since you have been seeing Ellen? I know this is a recent development and I can't remember you saying you have ever done this before.
>
> To me, just the fact that you are doing this awful thing to your body is an indicator that your relationship with Ellen is not good for you. Am I being unreasonable here? I feel like your mind and body have been sending you unconscious signals for months now that perhaps this relationship is not in your best interest.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on April 23, 2004, at 10:39:03
In reply to Re: I told Ellen about the consultation today » Miss Honeychurch, posted by crushedout on April 23, 2004, at 10:26:31
Crushed,
The fact that she took away an option for you that will ultimately benefit you by exploring other avenues is a major red flag in my opinion. I really don't mean to rag on Ellen, but I can see how much pain you're in and it makes me want to help. It really sounds to me like she is intimidated by the fact that you have seen someone else and therefore she mentions she is "scared" by the whole thing. What is she scared of? Scared of being judged by another Therapist? Scared you may come to a realization that maybe she is not the best T for you? Let me say this once. I really think Ellen does not have YOUR best interests at heart. A lot of this seems to be about her.
Don't let her dictate to you who you can and can't see. If you really want to continue seeing the other T, do so. The fact that Ellen has taken that option away from you is ridiculous.
I asked you this question before, and I'll ask it again in this context. If you had a dughter, and she told you about what was going on with Ellen and how Ellen didn't want her seeing anyone else or else she would terminate, what would your advice be?
I don't mean to sound critical, I just have a helluva time sticking up for MYSELF and my forte lies in sticking up for others. I view babblers as part of my extended family and you are part of this family.
Posted by crushedout on April 23, 2004, at 10:48:48
In reply to Re: I told Ellen about the consultation today, posted by Miss Honeychurch on April 23, 2004, at 10:39:03
I wish I could take you in to therapy with me to stick up for me. You don't know how often I've wished I could bring someone else in there. It's so hard for me because I go in there and fight with Ellen and then I come out here and defend her. It's kind of tearing me apart.I have no idea what I would tell my daughter but I know my father, if he knew, would want me the heck out of there.
Posted by Rigby on April 23, 2004, at 11:12:00
In reply to Re: I told Ellen about the consultation today » Miss Honeychurch, posted by crushedout on April 23, 2004, at 10:48:48
I kinda think you're down the rabbit hole with your therapist. And seeing someone else won't stop the feelings of longing you have for her. Some things can't be unseen and other things can't be unfelt. We're not light switches.
I think you should stay with "Ellen" and work through it simply because even if you go to another therapist you're *still* going to be in pain about the first one anyway and frankly it doesn't sound like realistically you're ready to rip yourself away from this person you're so in love with (who would?)
But I think if you stay with your therapist you might try to (easier said than done) take a deeeeep breath and decide to Go With The Program which is do what she asks you do to: tell her specifically how you feel about her--force yourself to. **Let her help you.**
She sounds on track. Talking specifically about how you feel about her is right on. I think it'll make you feel worlds better and calmer and it'll pull the intensity out of it. If intensity and drama and longing and sadness are things you don't want to let go of than that's an addiction like anything else and you gotta get to the root of that too. Sometimes when you stop all the drama there's nothing there but an endless silence and loneliness--it takes guts to face that too.
Who cares if she said she was "sad" or mad or whatever. Eff that. Try and make this about you and not her. This is ****your**** therapy gosh darn it!!!!
And yeah, I think we can get alot out of exploring the "relationship" with our therapists but I think at some point with months of drama it's like: enough already. It can be overdone too to the point where this is nothing *but* the relationship with the therapist! And for me it's like--there's this 50 minutes/week talk thing and 24/7 drama around 50 minutes! Talk about the tail wagging the dog.
Anyway, it sounds like a lot of emotional turmoil. Imagine what it might feel like if things settle down. Will that be a good thing?
Posted by crushedout on April 23, 2004, at 11:17:13
In reply to Re: I told Ellen about the consultation today » crushedout, posted by Rigby on April 23, 2004, at 11:12:00
Great food for thought, Rigby. I think giving up the longing, you're right, would be very painful and empty-feeling. Why would I want to give it up? It's better than feeling nothing.
Posted by Dinah on April 23, 2004, at 12:24:03
In reply to Re: I told Ellen about the consultation today » Rigby, posted by crushedout on April 23, 2004, at 11:17:13
Crushed, I just want to say that whatever you decide to do about Ellen, I am so impressed with how far you have come on this issue. Your growth and willingness to look inside of yourself is a wonderful thing to watch.
I should also say that my therapist is completely and unshakeably opposed to two therapists at once too. I think it might be a therapist thing, not an Ellen thing.
Posted by crushedout on April 23, 2004, at 12:30:17
In reply to Re: I told Ellen about the consultation today » crushedout, posted by Dinah on April 23, 2004, at 12:24:03
Posted by gardenergirl on April 23, 2004, at 16:32:35
In reply to Re: I told Ellen about the consultation today » crushedout, posted by Dinah on April 23, 2004, at 12:24:03
I think Dinah's right. Without looking at the ethical principles, which I know I have somewhere, but not here at the office (hmmm, probably should have here, too)...anyway, I'm 99% sure that it is at least a professional guideline if not an ethical one that a therapist does not work with someone individually who is seeing another therapist individually at the same time. I can check it out this weekend sometime when I am at home.
It really just creates too difficult of a dynamic for all parties involved.
Also, I also responded to the word "scared" regarding Ellen's reaction with a big red flag. It's really not appropriate for the T to tell you she is "scared" of your getting consultation. This feels like coercion to me as she is playing towards your weakness in how you feel about her. She may be nervous that you or the new T will decide that she has been ineffective if not damaging in her treatment of you. But it's her job to manage those feelings, not to share them with you in the hopes that you don't pursue consultation.
That said, I feel like you are much more able to explore and to manage your feelings about her and the relationship than your past posts suggested. That is good to see. I hope it feels that way to you, too.
Take care and good luck with this very delicate situation.
gg
Posted by crushedout on April 23, 2004, at 21:17:21
In reply to Re: I told Ellen about the consultation today, posted by gardenergirl on April 23, 2004, at 16:32:35
I totally understand the concept behind not "seeing" two therapists at the same time, and would not want to do that on an ongoing basis. But in a situation like this, where the therapy itself feels like it might be problematic and you need an objective therapist to help you sort it out, that seems different. I mean, it's a consultation, not an ongoing therapeutic relationship. I think that's an important distinction.
Posted by gardenergirl on April 24, 2004, at 14:03:18
In reply to seeing two therapists » gardenergirl, posted by crushedout on April 23, 2004, at 21:17:21
You are right, I agree that a consultation is not an ongoing therapy relationship. I know others have said this, but I really think it would benefit both you and Ellen if you were to see the other T together. In some ways it's like marital counseling. It seems like the therapy relationship is the issue, and thus, seeing T2 together may be the most effective and efficient way.
At my training site, I see a woman who is contemplating divorce. I only hear her side of things, and together we problem solve about what needs to happen or not happen. I also help her with communication skills as she tends to be very aggressive and angry. But my supervisor and I would really like to see both people. That way, I can faciliate communication in the moment between them, and I get to hear both sides of the story, perhaps facilitating greater understanding and clarity between them.
Good luck!
gg
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