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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Aphrodite on December 17, 2004, at 18:04:31
Refresher -- I went to a hideous pdoc who implicitly blamed me for my csa and subsequent trauma. My T was angry with me and helped me write a letter to "fire" her. He was in complete agreement. After a year in therapy, I still have only danced around the details of the csa. Everytime I would try to talk, I would freak out, quit, flood, withdraw, etc. So, the pdoc was part of my "wise" plan to get other support in place before trying again. However, she ripped it wide open, I felt retraumatized, so my T says, "Well, it's out there. Let's go . . ."
So yesterday was my first session actually saying anything beyond my age, place, and person. I actually got out details between sobs. He was wonderful -- he said and did all the right things. He called me later to check on me and was reassuring and kind.
And yet . . .
There was this huge wave of fear and panic. I had a dream that he was a hidden child abuser as well and I caught him. I felt so exposed and vulnerable, and as much as I wanted his support and connection, just as equally I wanted to run and hide.
Today he called to tell me that the pdoc called him after receiving my letter. She offered to make things better. She wanted to establish parameters on what we would discuss. "What do you think?" he said.
I lost it! I sobbed and said he was trying to send me back to someone who abused me. I asked him what he had said, and he said he tried to stay out of the middle of it and to be open-minded. I was so hurt. I cried that I wanted him to be on my side, that he should have defended me, that I didn't feel believed. I felt that all the support and validation he had given to me at the time was disingenious. He was silent and then said, "I can't believe how I've hurt you."
I kept trying to get off the phone because I knew I was being irrational and hysterical. He kept insisting we work through it. He said he understood that it seemed like he was checking on me and that he would possibly side with her. He asked what I wished he would have done. I said that he should have told her off for me and told her all the damage she had done. He said I was right, that he was not being a good advocate for me. He said he was just trying to get me the meds I needed (one of the options was to use her as a transition pdoc) and thought she had seen the error of her ways. I asked, "If the man who abused me saw the error of his ways, should I have forgiven him and been sent back to him?"
It is amazing how these old feelings get relived. I feel like my premontion about it being unwise to let my guard down was so right. My defense mechanisms are definitely there for a reason. This hurts worse than anything. I feel betrayed. I feel like the two grown-up professionals had a consultation about the irrational little girl and were trying to make her behave. Yuck.
I finally hung up because his apologies weren't helping -- they were making me feel bad because I know he did not set out to intentionally harm me.
I've gone dormant and silent again. He said on the phone that my trust in him has been rightfully broken. Now I am worse than before I started. In fact, I was much better before I ever went down this therapy road. I can't help but think I'm not meant to be well. I feel it in the core of my being.
Posted by Aphrodite on December 17, 2004, at 18:47:23
In reply to BIG Setback (Long -- as usual), posted by Aphrodite on December 17, 2004, at 18:04:31
> My T was angry with me and helped me write a letter to "fire" her. He was in complete agreement.
Clarification for what it's worth; he wasn't angry "with" me -- a better choice would be, "He was as angry as I was."
Posted by fallsfall on December 17, 2004, at 20:01:03
In reply to Re: BIG Setback (Long -- as usual), posted by Aphrodite on December 17, 2004, at 18:47:23
(((Aphrodite)))
I can't give you a long response right now, but your feelings sound very reasonable to me. Your therapist sounds like he really does care and can help you. Please give him a chance. Try to work through this with him.
Posted by Dinah on December 17, 2004, at 22:13:23
In reply to BIG Setback (Long -- as usual), posted by Aphrodite on December 17, 2004, at 18:04:31
Ugh. One of the reasons why I prefer not to have my therapist consult with other professionals. It is hard to shake that "grownups having a conference about me" feeling.
Your therapist certainly does seem willing to own his mistake though. That's a heck of a good sign. And he probably has a fair savings account of trust with you. It may not take as long to recover from this one as it would have earlier in therapy.
Good grief. I sure am in a positive mood today. :(
(((Aphrodite)))
Posted by daisym on December 17, 2004, at 23:56:29
In reply to BIG Setback (Long -- as usual), posted by Aphrodite on December 17, 2004, at 18:04:31
I have been right where you are. Your brain is SCREAMING: "I knew it!!" Some part of you expected him to fail you and now he has. But of course it was completely unintentional. So the adult part of you is trying to have the rest of you register that information. It is impossibly painful. I think when it happened to me I thought I would just quit therapy. Then I thought, nope, I'll "just" go to my sessions and talk about some things, but no more talking from the younger parts of me. But then I felt to empty and upset. I missed being connected. Moreover, I NEEDED to be connected to my therapist. Together we found a way past it. It was hard and probably took 6 or 8 sessions. We would process it, move on and come back to it.
But overall, the rupture and repair has made us in some ways a stronger team. You WILL get through this. Just give yourself space to be angry and to be sad. Keep talking about it. Over and over again. You will learn something from all of this.
In the meantime, try to be nice to yourself. Eat ice cream and allow yourself to cry. Being frozen in it will make it worse.
(((Aphrodite))
I'll be around all weekend.
Posted by Poet on December 18, 2004, at 2:11:58
In reply to BIG Setback (Long -- as usual), posted by Aphrodite on December 17, 2004, at 18:04:31
Hi Aphrodite,
My therapist and pdoc both have signed agreements giving my permission for them to talk to each other. This was done when I was seriously suicidal, and what little logic my brain allowed at the time made sense that in a crisis they probably should talk.
In a noncrisis situation, I would want to know in advance if they are going to talk to each other. My T has never asked if she should call pdoc, but he has asked if he should call her. Both times I said no and he didn't.
I'd be mad at my therapist if she talked to pdoc, especially if it was about a letter we wrote together. I hate being made to feel like a naughty child whose mother got called in to see the teacher.
Since your T did realize he hurt and angered you and apologized, maybe when your anger lessens you could talk to him about how you would prefer he had done it? Can you talk about not using, letter pdoc and work on finding someone new for meds only?
I can see why you wouldn't want to work with Letter Pdoc anymore and your T hopefully will see it, too. It seems to me that the harm she did will not be easily erased away and your anger over possibily working with her again is understandable. You can get your med history from the pharmacy and bring it to the new pdoc.
I think a new pdoc would understand you had issues with another one. I was once asked by my new dermatologist why I stopped seeing a colleque who was the chairman of dermatology. I said that I told him to go back to medical school. A few years later he quit, so I guess he finally listened to me.
I know you've got lots going through your mind, I hope my babble made sense.
Poet
Posted by tryingtobewise on December 18, 2004, at 2:44:22
In reply to Re: BIG Setback (Long -- as usual) » Aphrodite, posted by Dinah on December 17, 2004, at 22:13:23
Hi Dinah, I tend to read more than post here but I wanted to say that you hit the nail right on the head when you referred to consulting professionals as the "grownups having a conference about me feeling". I am always negative towards the idea of the grownups consulting (and it is currently an action one professional wants to take), and now I know how to describe the discomfort. Thank you!
To Aphrodite I would just like to add I'm sorry about this setback. In no way, shape, or form am I trying to minimize your stress, but I'm wondering if after a few days you may begin to feel ok about your therapist again. (I totally support you in NOT feeling ok about the pdoc again though, unless you are able to just consider her a means to an end - meds.)
Kim
Posted by Dinah on December 18, 2004, at 3:30:16
In reply to Re: BIG Setback (Long -- as usual)}}Dinah, posted by tryingtobewise on December 18, 2004, at 2:44:22
I'd like to take credit, but I was borrowing Aphrodite's imagery. It really is accurate though, isn't it? I remember it from back when I had a pdoc who did discuss me with my therapist because they worked for the same agency. Never again, I think.
Posted by Aphrodite on December 18, 2004, at 19:25:29
In reply to BIG Setback (Long -- as usual), posted by Aphrodite on December 17, 2004, at 18:04:31
Thanks for the feedback, everyone. It's been a hard night and day. My T left a message for me last night. His voice cracked; he sounded distraught. He said he was concerned and wanted me to call him over the weekend if there was anything he could do to make things better.
I was momentarily snapped out of my own misery to realize he must be suffering, too. Then, I felt terribly that I was making such a big deal out of it.
But it feels like a *huge* deal to me. I felt forced to go to her to begin with. Then, he sympathized with the experience but was quick to mention all his other patients liked her. Finally, we decided she was not a good match, and I felt understood. Then he consulted with her and tried to be above the fray again, and I felt pressured to return to the scene of the crime. It's like he's forcing the young and wounded part of me to grow up and be mature just to salvage his working relationship with this pdoc.
Grown up Aphrodite knows that I am just reliving childhood trauma, but that knowledge doesn't make it hurt any less.
I left a message for him today. Good grief, this is the first time I've ever called him on a weekend. It felt like another blow to my independece and another step in being too much for him. Anyway, I said that I wanted him to protect me, fight for me, be completely on my side without question. I said I doubted I would ever be able to talk about the painful things again.
I missed his return calls, but he left reassuring messages for me that he was committed to working it out, to please keep working with him, and that he was so sorry for causing me to suffer further. Then he said that he wouldn't let the wounded parts of me to be silenced by this, that he would keep fighting for me to have a voice.
How do this psychodynamic T's do it? Trauma patients like me are so difficult and such a strain.
I'm torn between wanting to be mature, wanting to take care of my overworked T, and wanting to indulge my inner child all her pain. This is taking a lot of energy.
Thanks again for your helpful posts.
Posted by gardenergirl on December 18, 2004, at 22:06:16
In reply to His calls, posted by Aphrodite on December 18, 2004, at 19:25:29
> > I was momentarily snapped out of my own misery to realize he must be suffering, too. Then, I felt terribly that I was making such a big deal out of it.
>I'm glad he called. I can tell he really does care. And owning up to his mistake is BIG! Not everyone would do that.
> But it feels like a *huge* deal to me.
It IS a huge deal. Your feelings are not out of line. Only you have your experiences inside you to be triggered. I think you do a wonderful job of describing it so that others can understand how much it hurts.
>Anyway, I said that I wanted him to protect me, fight for me, be completely on my side without question. I said I doubted I would ever be able to talk about the painful things again.
I'm glad you were able to be honest about where you are right now. And I'm glad he is going to fight to repair this and keep going.
>
> How do this psychodynamic T's do it? Trauma patients like me are so difficult and such a strain.Well, I would argue that you could say the same about all kinds of patients. I was about to name some types, but I don't want to offend anyone. But my T brings up a good point. He said, "you've got to be paid to do it." This really offended me at first. He went on to say that of course T's do it because it's what they chose as a professional, and hopefully because it's what they love to do. But no one can do this for altruism alone. You have to be paid so that your services are valued. And you have to be able to separate out your personal and professional life. Being paid helps the T keep the boundaries. Does this make sense? I am still digesting this. And sorry to digress.
>
> I'm torn between wanting to be mature, wanting to take care of my overworked T, and wanting to indulge my inner child all her pain. This is taking a lot of energy.Oh my, I can see how it would. That's a lot to be juggle. Can you drop the ball of taking care of your T, and trust that he will catch it and keep it? It's his ball, you know. :)
Take extra special care right now. Gentle hugs and ice cream are in order, I think.
gg
Posted by Aphrodite on December 19, 2004, at 8:28:56
In reply to Re: His calls » Aphrodite, posted by gardenergirl on December 18, 2004, at 22:06:16
You are right about being paid to do this! In fact, I think T's and pdocs should be paid *so* much more because it's one of the few medical fields where you are literally being paid for the amount of time you spend in addition to being paid for the expertise. Does that make sense? I see other medical professionals for 15 or 20 minutes, and they get more money. With them, I've paid for the expertise. In mental health, it's time and knowledge. My T has never established policies about phone contact. (I wish he would! I know he gets taken advantage of. He says he doesn't have policies because he doesn't want a cookie-cutter approach, but in the end, I think he only hurts himself and confuses the patients, but I digress.) Anyway, I am so, so careful about paying for every minute of his time outside our sessions. If I didn't, I know he never would say anything. He often begrudgingly accepts my extra checks. Because I am so much, I try to help him not feel infringed upon or taken advantage of. It's hard enough as it is.
You're right, GG, no one would do this out of altruism alone. And I could never receive the help if I thought the T was overwhelmed or not being "adequately" compensated.
See how much I worry about him? As you suggested, I do need to let him take care of his own balls. (Ha, ha. I couldn't resist! Hope I don't get into trouble;)
Posted by Dinah on December 19, 2004, at 9:20:00
In reply to Being paid » gardenergirl, posted by Aphrodite on December 19, 2004, at 8:28:56
Posted by gardenergirl on December 19, 2004, at 13:28:29
In reply to Being paid » gardenergirl, posted by Aphrodite on December 19, 2004, at 8:28:56
>
> See how much I worry about him? As you suggested, I do need to let him take care of his own balls. (Ha, ha. I couldn't resist! Hope I don't get into trouble;)I laughed as I wrote that too.
gg
>
Posted by littleone on December 20, 2004, at 14:47:12
In reply to BIG Setback (Long -- as usual), posted by Aphrodite on December 17, 2004, at 18:04:31
Hi Aphrodite,
Sorry I've taken so long to reply, some days I get really antsy.
In my Inner Child Workbooks, they always talk about a protector for your Inner Child. I've got to say that I am really proud of your protector. I can see how betrayed you must be feeling, but your protector has stood up and spoken instead of running away or hiding or just taking it lying down or whatever. Kudos to you.
Your T sounds really special. It was terrible the way he hurt you, but he is obviously very invested in trying to fix things up. If you're still having trouble trying to rebuild your trust in him, maybe ask him to talk about if he's had many other instances where something he has done has broken the trust with one of his clients. If this is an isolated case, you may be able to excuse him because T's are only human (*gasp* shock horror!!), but if he's b*ggered up a number of times before, ... well I don't really know what to do then.
I must say there was something you wrote that disturbed me a little. It was the bit about how his voice broke and he sounded really upset. In a way it sounds like a good thing because it indicates he really cares about you and wants the best for you. But in a way it sounds like maybe he's caring too much or maybe he has an issue about failing or some other issue with himself. But I could be way off base here.
Anyway, just wanted you to know that I'm thinking of you.
Posted by Aphrodite on December 22, 2004, at 8:38:43
In reply to Re: BIG Setback (Long -- as usual) » Aphrodite, posted by littleone on December 20, 2004, at 14:47:12
Thank you so much for your kinds thoughts and support. It is so wonderful to have a source of support from people who have been in this space too.
And as for your concern about my T's distraught voice, you're absolutely right. By his own admission, he gets "insanely overinvolved" in his patients' dilemmas. I often feel the need to take care of him and remind him of his boundaries. Then, he gets defensive and says he can take care of himself. Yeah, right. :)
Thanks again.
This is the end of the thread.
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