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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 14, 2005, at 7:39:53
Maybe this is a little crazy, but I want to try to remember...
I met the therapist who had been recomended and made an appoitment to see her.
Over the weekend I started spinning out. I do that sometimes. But sometimes it gets really really bad. I get really scaired about how I'm feeling. And I can't seem to talk to anybody because I am in such a very very black place that all that seems to happen is that they catch my mood and I leave the conversation feeling worse then when I had started talking to them :-(I hate that. I hate it so much. And I don't know what to do to stop that.
Anyway. I got into such a black place and I was panicking and did the worst possible thing. I called her and told her I was spinning out. I don't know why. I don't know what I expected or wanted her to do. Bad move.
And the mood hung around. I went to the appoitment and p-doc had managed to phone her and talk to her inbetween my making the appoitment and my going to it. So instead of her asking me why I had made an appoitment to see her she thought she already knew because p-doc had told her. P-doc said that she needed to do a sensitive claims assessment to apply for ACC funding because the funding committee wouldn't look at funding unless other avenues were ruled out.
I didn't mean for it to be about that. I was going to pay her. I wanted to be able to talk to her and meet her properly and get to know her a little bit.
I haven't been sexually abused.
So I sat there while she spent a good 20 minutes on hold to ACC then had this really painful conversation of her asking for them to send her a sensitive claims form and them asking whether I had been abused and my saying no and them saying they wouldn't send the form if I hadn't and her saying they needed to send something to say they wouldn't send the form... and it got really painful and I can see why it is just so very much easier to say 'yeah sure i was sexually abused'. I can't believe the system is still like this.Anyway.
It got really painful so I just up and walked
And she started yelling
Really yelling at me to take one of her cards to give to p-doc.
:-(
It didn't go well at all.Did I stabotage it?
I should have been really trying to make a good impression.
I felt really groggy
She asked me a couple times if I was stoned
I said no
I wasn't.
I wasn't
But I don't think she believed me.I'm sorry
I'm going round and round
I really don't like myself very much sometimes :-(
Posted by alexandra_k on June 14, 2005, at 7:46:31
In reply to cant think of a header, posted by alexandra_k on June 14, 2005, at 7:39:53
I REALLY don't like myself very much sometimes.
I'm supposed to see my uni councellor on Thursday.
That is two days away.
I think people didn't really follow my thread
(It migrated across boards)
But I was going to really really try
To make a good go of working with her.
And I know my attitude sucks and this probably does count as stabotage
but i dont want her to be my therapist :-(
i mean. she is a good listener. but i can't really talk to her. i dont know. maybe i am stabotaging things. or maybe something is wrong there. maybe im picking up on something and that is why i feel so resistent.i dont know
i hate it when i dont know
i dont know whether to trust my judgment
or whether my judgment is the problem.to be fair...
i guess i do struggle with being there with the t in session.
and it takes a while before it happens.
i have to go through the hurt feelings or whatever of my last termination or two first :-(
but i don't seem to be snapping out of it this time.
maybe its cause something has finally snapped and i can't trust anymore.
maybe its cause i was seeing them both at the same time and thats why i didn't get properly attached
(yes i get that now, that that is why you aren't supposed to do that.)
maybe its because it isn't safe
it doesnt feel safe.but I need to decide.
ive either got to put all the rest of it out of my head and have a good go with her
or...
i dont know.
start hassling community mental health i guess.does anyone have any thoughts at all????
im really open to most things.
i don't know anymore.
i really dont know.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 14, 2005, at 7:59:42
In reply to Re: cant think of a header, posted by alexandra_k on June 14, 2005, at 7:46:31
Maybe its because I'm caught between acceptance and change. And I don't know which is appropriate.
Part of me thinks I should just accept the situation where community mental health won't treat me. That means making the best I can of what I've got.
Part of me thinks that I should fight the community mental health situation. Ask them where I'm at on the wait list for a p-doc. Keep the pressure on them. Tell them I never recieved formal notification the funding was declined. Request meetings. Thump on tables. Talk to lawyers etc.
The second way will probably get me feeling pretty angry.
The first way will probably lead to despair.
Crap.
Posted by badhaircut on June 14, 2005, at 9:54:26
In reply to Re: cant think of a header, posted by alexandra_k on June 14, 2005, at 7:46:31
(Footnote: What is ACC / ACC funding?)
The last time I few times I've seen mental professionals, I felt they were reaching around me to deal with a theoretical client or paper-file person, not seeing ME.
> I called her and told her I was spinning out. I don't know why. I don't know what I expected or wanted her to do. Bad move.
I know the feeling, but whatever it might've been "bad" for, I'm sure it was good for other things.
> And she started yelling
> Really yelling at me...From this it sounds like she may not have a lot of interpersonal skills or therapeutic focus. Unless a client is brandishing a chair over her head, I think her yelling is not helpful or professional or respectful.
> Did I stabotage it?
"Stabotage:" I love that word! I hope you don't mind if I use it sometimes. :)
Anyway, it sounds like you showed up at the appointment, really showed up, and you weren't included in *her* process – which was about being on the phone and getting forms about forms and wondering if people were stoned and carrying out orders (from the pdoc). In a certain sense, it sounds like there wasn't much going on therapeutically that you *could* stabotage.
> I should have been really trying to make a good impression.
What would that mean? Would it have helped? Seriously. Good impressions are for employment applications. Therapy is for showing up, which it seems you did and she didn't (in a therapeutic sense).
> i dont know whether to trust my judgment
> or whether my judgment is the problemThis is bad philosophy. A dog chasing its referential tail. The question must be set aside.
But I think Alexandra is a good philosopher. And we know that good philosophers hassle people. They hassle institutions. They walk out. They make demands and bad impressions. Therapists hate good philosophers – unless the therapist is a good philosopher, too.
(This is rare.)
-bhc (mediocre philosopher)
Posted by fallsfall on June 14, 2005, at 10:52:40
In reply to judgment » alexandra_k, posted by badhaircut on June 14, 2005, at 9:54:26
Alex,
I'm so sorry that your appointment with the therapist didn't go well. It sounds like the two of you had very different agendas - and that is a sure fire way to make it not go well. So, don't blame yourself for that. The situation was set up to fail. But that doesn't mean you should give up.
Let me tell you what I know of your situation, so we are sure I have the details right. You have a Uni Counselor who is very nice and supportive, but really doesn't have the training to deal with the types of issues that you have. You've been trying to get funding to see someone who *does* have the training to help you. This therapist you saw was the person who was named as being someone who does have that training. But the funding was turned down. So you went to see her anyway (willing to pay). But she had gotten information from your pdoc that the funding had been turned down, so she was taking the next step to appeal that so that she could see you and she could be paid by someone other than you. But you wanted to get to know her to see if it was worth going through all of the effort to get the funding. How am I doing?
If my summary is correct, then I think you need a Do Over.
Your Uni Counselor is not going to be able to give you what you need (not because she is lazy or a bad person - but she doesn't have the training). She helps you to make it through the days, but she isn't going to be able to make things *better*. So I think you need to stick with her in that supportive capacity until you are settled with someone who does have the training (which you aren't right now).
This new therapist may be very different if the two of you have the same goals. Don't give up on her yet. I agree that it doesn't speak so well for her that she didn't start the session with "Why are you here?", but that doesn't mean that she is hopeless.
What would you think about calling for another appointment with her and telling her that you will pay - so you don't want her to worry about the funding right now. Tell her that you need to talk to her to see if she would be a good fit for you. That you need to know that so you can decide how hard to fight for funding etc. Tell her that you think the two of you had different agendas, and that you would like to have an opportunity to ask her to work on your agenda for a session. Just one session.
I think that your reaction during the session is indicative of the issues that you have. So you don't have to apologize for your actions. If you didn't have problems, then you wouldn't have gone to see her to begin with.
Can you try to start over and tell her what you need? You are very smart, informed and articulate. Tell her you need to establish a therapeutic relationship before you can handle the brassiness of forms and diagnoses etc.
But whatever happens, you were honestly YOU during that session. That *IS* the ONLY requirement for therapy.
Posted by badhaircut on June 14, 2005, at 11:06:34
In reply to Do Over, posted by fallsfall on June 14, 2005, at 10:52:40
> But whatever happens, you were honestly YOU during that session. That *IS* the ONLY requirement for therapy.
Amen!
Posted by Jazzed on June 14, 2005, at 13:12:33
In reply to cant think of a header, posted by alexandra_k on June 14, 2005, at 7:39:53
Wow, Alexandra, I'm SO sorry that your appt. went so badly! This sounds very distressing, it's understandable why you're so upset, you have every right to feel this way.
Since you seem to get in a bad way before appointments, and don't want to go into them that way, are you able to do some visualization? If you can just get beyond that initial appointment, and feel good about it, then things might go better. I don't know your situation, but when I'm anxious about an appt. I have to visualize, or I get so worked up it WILL go badly, and I do make the wrong impression.
I would guess that the mood "hung around" because you felt bad about the phone call you had with the T before your appt. Were you berating yourself for that? Don't. It's their job to hear problems, and they understand that people have very bad times. We can't have our bad times on a schedule, so don't be so hard on yourself.
It's good that your p-doc called ahead of time for you, but too bad she didn't see any other point to the appt. What did you do while she was on hold? Did the two of you talk? What was she yelling at you when you left?
I don't think you intentionally sabotaged your appt. I think you just got yourself so worked up that it went badly. Yep, I agree, we all need a "do over" button! That would certainly help with so many things!
As for her asking you if you were stoned. I suppose it's part of her job to have to ask, but she shouldn't badger you about it. Try to blow that off, and move on. Try to replay it in your head, and have her ask you something else instead of that, something positive.
Maybe you could print this out, along with the next post, mail it to her, and tell her that you'd like to start again. That she met you at a bad time, and you felt bad about how things went. I think the way you've expressed yourself here is awesome. I didn't see it as going around and around, I saw it as thinking in writing. Using the forum as a sounding board. You are very good with words and expressing yourself in writing.
Good luck with all of this, and try to visualize another appt. One where you feel good, are very confident, and where you control what's going on at least as much as she does.
Jazzed
Posted by alexandra_k on June 14, 2005, at 16:33:59
In reply to judgment » alexandra_k, posted by badhaircut on June 14, 2005, at 9:54:26
> (Footnote: What is ACC / ACC funding?)
Accident Compensation. There should really be another 'C' word in that. They pay for something towards therapy when people have been sexually abused.
> The last time I few times I've seen mental professionals, I felt they were reaching around me to deal with a theoretical client or paper-file person, not seeing ME.Yeah. I think they do that sometimes. Especially when they are in a hurry. And maybe she didn't want to see me till she knew for sure that she was going to be working with me.
Yeah. I didn't think the yelling was such a good thing for her to be doing. I started off walking out and when she started getting louder I almost ran.
> Anyway, it sounds like you showed up at the appointment, really showed up, and you weren't included in *her* process – which was about being on the phone and getting forms about forms and wondering if people were stoned and carrying out orders (from the pdoc). In a certain sense, it sounds like there wasn't much going on therapeutically that you *could* stabotage.Yeah, I guess. I did my best. Really. I was so very worried about how it would go I think I just got sick with worrying about it.
> > I should have been really trying to make a good impression.> What would that mean? Would it have helped? Seriously. Good impressions are for employment applications. Therapy is for showing up, which it seems you did and she didn't (in a therapeutic sense).
Yeah. I guess I just looked fairly much like something the cat dragged in. I wasn't even going to go. I just managed to haul myself out of bed and threw some jeans on in time.
> > i dont know whether to trust my judgment
> > or whether my judgment is the problem
> This is bad philosophy. A dog chasing its referential tail. The question must be set aside.Yeah. Even if I did know that my judgement was faulty that wouldn't help me. Not unless I knew precisely when and in what way it was faulty so I could remidy that...
:-)
> But I think Alexandra is a good philosopher. And we know that good philosophers hassle people. They hassle institutions. They walk out. They make demands and bad impressions. Therapists hate good philosophers – unless the therapist is a good philosopher, too.
> (This is rare.):-)
I liked that.
I think there might be something in that...> -bhc (mediocre philosopher)
I'm afraid I have to disagree. I think you are a pretty good philosopher yourself. We have had some very interesting conversations.
Thanks for that. I feel a little better now
Posted by alexandra_k on June 14, 2005, at 16:44:13
In reply to Do Over, posted by fallsfall on June 14, 2005, at 10:52:40
> Let me tell you what I know of your situation, so we are sure I have the details right.
Yeah. I'm sorry it gets all complicated :-(
>You have a Uni Counselor who is very nice and supportive, but really doesn't have the training to deal with the types of issues that you have. You've been trying to get funding to see someone who *does* have the training to help you. This therapist you saw was the person who was named as being someone who does have that training.
Yup, thats all correct.
>But the funding was turned down. So you went to see her anyway (willing to pay). But she had gotten information from your pdoc that the funding had been turned down, so she was taking the next step to appeal that so that she could see you and she could be paid by someone other than you. But you wanted to get to know her to see if it was worth going through all of the effort to get the funding. How am I doing?
Ok. Thats pretty much correct too - but the order is a bit out. We were still getting the application to the funding committee together when I made the appoitment to see her. I did say to her that I thought it would probably be turned down and she looked a little suprised. It has been since then that the funding was turned down. She doesn't know about that - to the best of my knowledge. I haven't contacted her since the appoitment.
I was going to. Just to tell her that it was turned down. But then I worried about my motivation in doing that. In some obscure hope she would see me anyway. And thats not fair.
> Your Uni Counselor is not going to be able to give you what you need (not because she is lazy or a bad person - but she doesn't have the training). She helps you to make it through the days, but she isn't going to be able to make things *better*. So I think you need to stick with her in that supportive capacity until you are settled with someone who does have the training (which you aren't right now).Yup.
> This new therapist may be very different if the two of you have the same goals. Don't give up on her yet. I agree that it doesn't speak so well for her that she didn't start the session with "Why are you here?", but that doesn't mean that she is hopeless.
Yeah. Despite all that... I think she seems ok.> What would you think about calling for another appointment with her and telling her that you will pay - so you don't want her to worry about the funding right now. Tell her that you need to talk to her to see if she would be a good fit for you. That you need to know that so you can decide how hard to fight for funding etc. Tell her that you think the two of you had different agendas, and that you would like to have an opportunity to ask her to work on your agenda for a session. Just one session.
I suppose I could...
But then I'd be terrified that nothing would work out.
The next step might have to be to launch an inquirey which takes up to two years. I won't even be here (in NZ) in two years time. I might be able to get a p-doc at community mental health. But the external funding is trickier.But nothing risked, nothing gained.
Ok.
Maybe I'll do that.
I'll just have to wait for my next pay.
Maybe I'll write something too.
To give her at the end.
Just in case it turns out hard to communicate with her.
> I think that your reaction during the session is indicative of the issues that you have. So you don't have to apologize for your actions. If you didn't have problems, then you wouldn't have gone to see her to begin with.Thank you.
I really do think...
I'm doing the best I can.
Which is why it is so hard when people say I'm not.> But whatever happens, you were honestly YOU during that session. That *IS* the ONLY requirement for therapy.
Thankyou.
Posted by alexandra_k on June 14, 2005, at 16:53:38
In reply to Re: cant think of a header, posted by Jazzed on June 14, 2005, at 13:12:33
> What did you do while she was on hold?
I sat there feeling really stupid.
P-doc told her to make an application for sensitive claims.
I arrived.
She said she was going to get the application
I told her I had never been sexually abused.
She started telling me that she couldn't make an application if I hadn't been
(don't tell me - tell p-doc)
And I just sat there feeling really stupid while she was on the phone.
She gave me a DES to fill out.
And I hate psych tests so that probably didn't help.>Did the two of you talk? What was she yelling at you when you left?
We didn't really talk. She looked at the DES and said something or other to validate my symptoms and asked if she could talk to them.
NO
She did that on the phone too. And I don't like it and it scares me. That might have been about when I walked. She was yelling at me to take one of her cards to give to p-doc. I didn't get why. I didn't get why he wants / needs a card. We already have her contact details and the point is that she is the person who was recomended in the specialists assessment.
> I think you just got yourself so worked up that it went badly.Yeah. That might be it.
> As for her asking you if you were stoned. I suppose it's part of her job to have to ask, but she shouldn't badger you about it. Try to blow that off, and move on. Try to replay it in your head, and have her ask you something else instead of that, something positive.Yeah. And I did look a wreck to be fair. I was sinking into a real bad place. Been fairly much living in bed not eating or showering or anything for a few days. I hope I didn't smell bad :-(
> Maybe you could print this out, along with the next post, mail it to her, and tell her that you'd like to start again. That she met you at a bad time, and you felt bad about how things went. I think the way you've expressed yourself here is awesome. I didn't see it as going around and around, I saw it as thinking in writing. Using the forum as a sounding board. You are very good with words and expressing yourself in writing.Thanks. The problem... Is that I can't afford to see her. Thats the problem. I'm fairly sure we could work things out if we were working together. But we aren't. So. I havent' even contacted her to say that the funding didn't come through.
Thanks for your response
Posted by Jazzed on June 14, 2005, at 21:20:47
In reply to Re: cant think of a header » Jazzed, posted by alexandra_k on June 14, 2005, at 16:53:38
I hope you can get all of this worked out alexandra. Hope you can get into the community program if not with this T.
Jazzed
Posted by Tamar on June 15, 2005, at 5:09:24
In reply to cant think of a header, posted by alexandra_k on June 14, 2005, at 7:39:53
Hi Alex,
I don't really know what to say, but I didn't want to ignore your post. I know it doesn't help much, but I am thinking of you and hoping you'll find a way through all this cr*p to get the care you need and deserve.
Tamar
Posted by gardenergirl on June 15, 2005, at 11:52:07
In reply to Re: Do Over » fallsfall, posted by alexandra_k on June 14, 2005, at 16:44:13
Hi alex,
Falls, as usual, has written a great post chock full of good things. I'm sorry the first session didn't go well. I just wanted to point out that it's the T's job to make you feel at ease and to hope you through the first session. So there's no way you screwed up or sabotauged yourself in the appt. Whatever was going on with your thoughts and feelings at that moment is important, even if it's anxiety or other feelings about therapy.(((alex))))
gg
Posted by alexandra_k on June 15, 2005, at 23:31:19
In reply to Re: Do Over, posted by gardenergirl on June 15, 2005, at 11:52:07
This is the end of the thread.
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