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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 19 to 43 of 43. Go back in thread:
Posted by Shortelise on June 17, 2005, at 12:14:52
In reply to Re: thanks to you all - another trigger maybe » Shortelise, posted by Dinah on June 17, 2005, at 7:01:33
If it were today, I wouldn't go.
I am supposed to be seeing him less often,so I made appt's a month apart, or as close to that as possible.
You know when you pick up a cat that doesn't want to be picked up, how it squirms and writhes? That's how I feel.
Maybe I am so angry at him because of my own inadequacies.
And I think he doesn't like me. I know that's an old song in the therapy biz, and that many of us struggle with it. He'd say it means I don't like myself.
Sh*t. Double sh*t.
Thanks again for putting up with me, for taking thetime to send your ideas and opinions. It helps so much that you care.
ShortE
Posted by pegasus on June 17, 2005, at 14:15:46
In reply to next appt in 5 weeks., posted by Shortelise on June 17, 2005, at 12:14:52
I'm so sorry about this whole situation for you. I agree with littleone that I want to give him a swift kick in the shins. And then ask him exactly what his theory about termination is?? Maybe if he has some organizing principle behind his actions that he could explain, it would make it hurt a little less? Or maybe not. He did kind of explain it as a weaning off a while back, didn't he. Well, why can't he see that's a painful, hurtful way to do it?
SE, you said that you thought maybe we all agree that he's doing a bad job of termination because we're seeing it through your filter. But, that's how *you're* seeing it, right? So, as far as you're concerned, this is a bad termination. And whatever his intentions are, the fact that the termination is going so badly for you should be relevant to him. Am I making sense? I just think it sounds like he might be sticking to some theory and missing the reality of what it's doing.
I really hope things start to get better for you around this, some way or another. I just hurt for you whenever I read the latest developments about this termination.
(((Shortelise)))
pegasus
Posted by daisym on June 17, 2005, at 15:07:29
In reply to next appt in 5 weeks., posted by Shortelise on June 17, 2005, at 12:14:52
I don't understand why this would be good for folks with "BPD" -- why do you think this? Is there any evidence that says this is the best way?
I'm sorry, I just don't understand. It doesn't matter if it is only through your filter that we see things, I can HEAR your pain!!! And we don't want our friends in pain. I'm searching for a way to see this as something that you must endure because it is good for you. I would have said that about termination overall. But there MUST be a gentler way, mustn't there??
It is raining here. I wish I could have you over for tea (I typed tear) and warm toast. We could swing together and not even need to talk. I could use the company today.
Posted by Tamar on June 17, 2005, at 17:36:54
In reply to T today - hurt and angry - may trigger, posted by Shortelise on June 16, 2005, at 14:31:33
Oh ShortE, what a rough experience.
I think you are really at the beginning of the termination process and it will take quite some time. I don't think he should pull away all at once.
I also wonder if you're going into session expecting to feel unsupported and then find it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Maybe I'm wrong...
I think it's also really hard to have that experience and then find you need to go five weeks until your next appointment. I wish you could see him sooner and talk about how the process of termination is feeling to you. It might be hard for him to guage exactly how you're feeling about it.
I really think termination should be about finding ways to walk away from your safe place of your own free will, and maybe learn to find safe places outside therapy. If it feels as if he's snatching the safety away from you, I think there's something wrong, and it's not you!
And you really are NOT a loser!
(((((ShortE)))))
I'm also glad to hear your husband is being such a star.
Tamar
Posted by Aphrodite on June 17, 2005, at 18:05:44
In reply to next appt in 5 weeks., posted by Shortelise on June 17, 2005, at 12:14:52
Don't try to analyze why you're having the feelings of anger toward him that you do. For now, just have them and let them out.
I'm sorry. Does 5 weeks seem like forever to you, or are you grateful for the time to get some distance from the situation?
And don't turn your diagnosis against yourself because you are more than a label. No label fits anyone completely and thoroughly. I hate to see you identifying with an illness and then feeling that is a reason for the less than optimum skill he is providing in this termination process.
If you feel the need to take some of the responsibility, at least make it a 50/50 split.
I am so, so sorry.
Posted by Shortelise on June 18, 2005, at 1:22:10
In reply to T today - hurt and angry - may trigger, posted by Shortelise on June 16, 2005, at 14:31:33
Dear xxx,I guess your learning, your theories, your knowledge of me, and other factors I can’t imagine have contributed to forming the termination method you are using with me. I believe you’re doing what you think is best for me.
It’s just not working for me. That I came in saying I feel I have to handle you with kid gloves – you heard me loud and clear. You knew I was feeling awful and you knew I was saying so. That you ask me to speak your language, well, sometimes I can and sometimes I can’t. Still. After seven years. And that’s the way it is. I know you don’t like it about me, and I don’t like it about me, but it may be one of those things that will take longer than seven years to change. My dear psychiatrist, I am way better at it than I used to be.
I am feeling reprimanded, like a dog having my nose rubbed in my own sh*t. I couldn’t give you context for whatever it was three weeks ago because I am intimidated by you, and when you asked me that, my mind went blank as it often does when I am frightened. I’m frightened a lot.
I feel able to terminate by seeing you once a month for a while, then once very six to eight weeks, then once every few months, then once in a while after that, knowing there is a place that exists for me, where I can bring my usual multi-coloured swirls and whirls of emotion and find a listener who can help me understand, in a gentle, empathetic way, the tangles I get into.
I don’t feel able to go through the process being called “addicted to therapy” or “addicted to intensity” no matter how true those things might be. I don’t feel able to tolerate whatever it is you are doing, or to evolve in to a person who does. It feels harsh, and frankly, cruel. This is surely not your intention, but you seem to have some idea of how I should be, and it is not how I am.
I need to feel safe with you, and I don’t. The world challenges me daily, knocks me down, makes me examine my assumptions, forces me to question myself. On the whole, I deal with that with grace these days. I am not asking you be my mother. I am asking you to be on my side again.
You’ve said that you feel confident in my ability to go on without you should I chose not to see you again. I agree, but I wouldn’t like to do that. I feel so hurt and so sad – and angry, too. I don’t want to leave disliking you as I do right now and I’d like your help with this. But if you don’t feel it’s possible to alter your method, maybe reach a compromise, then it would be best for me not to return to therapy with you.
Please let me know.
Yours,
Posted by pinkeye on June 18, 2005, at 12:40:07
In reply to wrote and sent this letter to T today, posted by Shortelise on June 18, 2005, at 1:22:10
Great.. I wish I had the same courage.
Good for you.
Posted by Daisym on June 18, 2005, at 13:20:34
In reply to wrote and sent this letter to T today, posted by Shortelise on June 18, 2005, at 1:22:10
My heart is breaking for you...such a sad, clear letter. I hope he gets it, understands what you said. How could he not?
I just want to hold and rock you. This would kill me. You are very strong.
(((ShortE)))
Posted by Dinah on June 18, 2005, at 15:03:14
In reply to wrote and sent this letter to T today, posted by Shortelise on June 18, 2005, at 1:22:10
I think that was very brave of you.
I hope he responds appropriately and sensitively.
((((ShortE))))
Posted by pegasus on June 18, 2005, at 15:10:40
In reply to wrote and sent this letter to T today, posted by Shortelise on June 18, 2005, at 1:22:10
It seems like a very good letter and quite brave. I hope he understands what it means, and that you two can have a really productive talk about the whole thing. I'm wishing you much luck with it. Please let us know what happens.
pegasus
Posted by Shortelise on June 18, 2005, at 16:17:43
In reply to wrote and sent this letter to T today, posted by Shortelise on June 18, 2005, at 1:22:10
Thank you all so much.
Here's what I've done since I left therapy on Thursday:
I came home, told my husband the whole thing, cried and cried. Then I go into bed for about an hour and thought about the various ways there are of successfully killing one's self. I have a favourite, and I thought about it, thought it trhough carefully, planned how I would do it, then decided that I needed some help so called out to my husband who was downstairs. I told him I needed help getting up - not physically - but he did physically help me up, and we went for a walk, and talked some more, worked in the garden, and it was ok.
I wrote to you guys, and read your responses.
I slogged through the mess that is my emotional self, read through your notes, and tried to figure things out enough to write to my T. And I wrote, as you saw. And now I feel better. I think he will understand, I think he'll help.
But if he doesn't, if I am all wrong as I fear I might be, and he throws me back into the sea, I will swim.
Thanks so very much for your kind compassion. You guys save me.
ShortE
Posted by gardenergirl on June 18, 2005, at 17:56:07
In reply to feeling better, posted by Shortelise on June 18, 2005, at 16:17:43
Ah ShortE,
I'm glad you are feeling better. I'm glad you wrote to your T so honestly and from your heart. I'm glad you find support here. And I am glad you can swim. I know you will, however your termination goes.(((shortelise)))
gg
Posted by 10derHeart on June 19, 2005, at 18:51:49
In reply to wrote and sent this letter to T today, posted by Shortelise on June 18, 2005, at 1:22:10
ShoertE,
This was awesome. So articulate and emotional all at once - not an easy mix to achieve. You are a wonderful writer.
I love that you sent it to him. And I REALLY love what you posted below about all the things you did, and in what order, since that last appt. day!
It really struck me and I'm so impressed. You really are so strong in all of this, you know.Allowing yourself even the most awful of feelings, but not acting, instead reaching out for IRL help, Babbling, taking a walk, gardening, etc. - what a litany of healthy, constructive things to do! That reads like a blueprint for anyone else struggling with the pain this odd and confusing termination has put you through.
I so, so pray he answers and/or reaches out a hand to you. I remember your therapy relatrionship was long and good. This just doesn't seem like him. More like something he's programmed himself to do because he's *supposed* to. Ironic, isn't it? T's so often fight to help us stop doing destructive behaviors simply out of a *supposed to* attitude. Now look at him :-(
I wish you good sleep, lots of distractions, an understanding husband, beautiful garden and more long walks, dear ShortE. Hugs, - 10der
Posted by Shortelise on June 19, 2005, at 21:03:14
In reply to Re: wrote and sent this letter to T today » Shortelise, posted by 10derHeart on June 19, 2005, at 18:51:49
Posted by 10derHeart on June 19, 2005, at 23:35:53
In reply to thank you thank you (nm), posted by Shortelise on June 19, 2005, at 21:03:14
Posted by Shortelise on June 20, 2005, at 15:23:39
In reply to wrote and sent this letter to T today, posted by Shortelise on June 18, 2005, at 1:22:10
He said that this isn't the first time I've walked out of a session, and that he hoped I'd come back as soon as possible and talk about the things I wrote.
He said lots of stuff, all in that ten-miles-away voice. All very matter of fact, all very "I'm sorry if you don't like what I'm saying but it needs to be said" voice.
He understood from my note that I am asking him not to point things out to me!! I am asking him to be gentler. Maybe he can't be, maybe he's tried that and it hasn't worked.
I said I felt like he wants me to go away, that he dislikes and is fed up with me. He said I have to take responsibility for those feelings because they are not how he feels. He said it's imortant to see where they come from.
He would prefer to see me every three weeks, not once a month.
What? So how can I imagine that he hates me and wants me to go away? I hate me and want me to go away, how can he not?
Help. Help! I feel so awful.
He said that he does not like it that I left like that instead of staying and talking things through, and he did not like it that I said as I was leaving that he is a nasty person. (He didn't say I'd called him a nasty little man. That's a way nastier thing to say than just calling him a nasty person!! I have to wonder if his receptionist altered what I said for his benefit. We're kind of pals, and I wouldn't put it past her.)
He said it would have been best if I'd stayed in the room and told him I thought he was being nasty.I don't know. I want him to feel as bad as I do. It's completely infantile how I feel. He said something about how I should "use the skills Ive learned." *sshole. (God, I love that word. It has a certain something that no other insult does.) How in the world does he think I get through every day.
Babblers, please talk to me, no holds barred. GG, you too. If I am being an idiot here, I need to hear it from my far away pals from whom I have some distance. I could hear it from someone very close, too, but there is no one close to me who can see this clearly.
Help. Please. Dammit.
ShortE, feeling stupid and pathetic and all wrong and suicidal. Suicidal for me is an idea, not an act, so I won't actually do it. How I wish I would.
Posted by annierose on June 20, 2005, at 15:53:44
In reply to T called, posted by Shortelise on June 20, 2005, at 15:23:39
Sorry you are feeling so bad. Your T's reply does sound like he was talking his "parent" voice instead of a compassionate, I am trying to understand what you are feeling voice. His tone sounds slightly punative in nature. Maybe I'm reading too much into it.
I would feel hurt too, if that makes you feel any better. And I wish I knew what to say to help you. I'm glad I am not going to terminate with my T any time soon. This is such a painful process.
Sending hugs and warm wishes your way!!
Annierose
Posted by Tamar on June 20, 2005, at 16:28:52
In reply to T called, posted by Shortelise on June 20, 2005, at 15:23:39
> He said that this isn't the first time I've walked out of a session, and that he hoped I'd come back as soon as possible and talk about the things I wrote.
I’m glad he called, and I’m glad he wants you to come back as soon as possible. I think he’s offering you an olive branch there.
> He said lots of stuff, all in that ten-miles-away voice. All very matter of fact, all very "I'm sorry if you don't like what I'm saying but it needs to be said" voice.
>
> He understood from my note that I am asking him not to point things out to me!! I am asking him to be gentler. Maybe he can't be, maybe he's tried that and it hasn't worked.Or maybe he doesn’t understand how you feel about losing your safe place, and needs it explained to him in words of one syllable…
> I said I felt like he wants me to go away, that he dislikes and is fed up with me. He said I have to take responsibility for those feelings because they are not how he feels. He said it's imortant to see where they come from.I guess seeing where they come from would involve dealing with the myriad feelings that impending termination evokes.
> He would prefer to see me every three weeks, not once a month.
I think that’s a good thing. It seems to imply that he thinks you need a more gradual approach to termination, which would give you more safety and more time to work things through.
> What? So how can I imagine that he hates me and wants me to go away? I hate me and want me to go away, how can he not?
I’m sure he doesn’t hate you. And after seven years it must be hard for him to think about the end of your therapy. I’m certain he wants to approach it in a way that will be bearable for both of you.
> Help. Help! I feel so awful.
(((((ShortE)))))
> He said that he does not like it that I left like that instead of staying and talking things through, and he did not like it that I said as I was leaving that he is a nasty person. (He didn't say I'd called him a nasty little man. That's a way nastier thing to say than just calling him a nasty person!! I have to wonder if his receptionist altered what I said for his benefit. We're kind of pals, and I wouldn't put it past her.)
Yes, a nasty person is a better spin on it! I suppose he could feel a little hurt, and he might be surprised that you left, especially if it’s been a long time since you walked out of therapy. I hope he realizes that your action indicates some very profound feelings and that he needs to start being more gentle with you.
> He said it would have been best if I'd stayed in the room and told him I thought he was being nasty.
I assumed you pretty much lost your temper. Is that how it was? Sometimes things can feel so awful that it’s impossible to stay. Yes, perhaps staying would have been best. And I’m sure if you’d felt that staying was possible you would have stayed. So if staying wasn’t possible, the reasons for that are important to think about.
> I don't know. I want him to feel as bad as I do. It's completely infantile how I feel. He said something about how I should "use the skills Ive learned." *sshole. (God, I love that word. It has a certain something that no other insult does.) How in the world does he think I get through every day.
Maybe he does feel pretty bad. I would bet my house he wasn’t expecting you to walk out. That would explain his ten-miles-away voice. A voice like that is a form of self-protection, in my view. (BTW, I love *sshole too, and also w*nker…)
> Babblers, please talk to me, no holds barred. GG, you too. If I am being an idiot here, I need to hear it from my far away pals from whom I have some distance. I could hear it from someone very close, too, but there is no one close to me who can see this clearly.
I don’t think you are being an idiot. But if you really want a no-holds-barred comment, then I would say: start your next session by talking about termination. Never mind the whys and wherefores about leaving your last session, or his lack of gentleness. Those things will almost certainly come up in the course of discussion. But if you start out by setting the agenda, everything else you talk about can be interpreted in the light of your feelings about termination. Or maybe I’m way off the mark… feel free to flame me if necessary!
> ShortE, feeling stupid and pathetic and all wrong and suicidal. Suicidal for me is an idea, not an act, so I won't actually do it. How I wish I would.
I’m glad you say you won’t, even if you’re thinking about it. Please do take care of yourself. I couldn’t bear to lose you!
Have you made a new appointment to see him yet?
Posted by pinkeye on June 20, 2005, at 16:37:22
In reply to T called, posted by Shortelise on June 20, 2005, at 15:23:39
Many Ts suck at terminating gracefully... I think yours is lacking that skill as well..
But I am glad atleast he has agreed to a little gradual termination for you, and he has agreed to see you at spaced intervals for sometime.
Get everything out in the open now itself.. tell him how hard it is for you to terminate.. if you want, quote all the babblers and tell him what everybody goes through during termination.. then he might understand more.. I would say every T needs to dedicate atleast 10 - 20 sessions for termination itself.
Posted by Dinah on June 20, 2005, at 19:21:43
In reply to T called, posted by Shortelise on June 20, 2005, at 15:23:39
Could it be that you're not yet ready for termination?
I think his comment that he'd rather see you every three weeks might be an acknowldegement of that on his part.
Might it help to talk about that next time.
Maybe one day you could move to once every six months therapy or something.
Posted by gardenergirl on June 20, 2005, at 21:27:02
In reply to Re: T called » Shortelise, posted by Dinah on June 20, 2005, at 19:21:43
I'm glad he called. I think it does show that he cared. And his saying that he wishes you had stayed and talked about it, even talked about feeling like he's nasty...well, I can see how that did sound punitive. And I also think he really does wish you two could have talked about it. My guess is that he's not aware of how painful this is for you, and perhaps he defends against this aspect of your feelings by being more parental?
It could also be that you are projecting some. Heck, who wouldn't at termination? It's a time when clients can regress a bit, out of the pain and anxiety associated with it. Most T's recognize that, and some even prepare you for it. Perhaps he's not viewing it clearly and objectively because he cares for you and wants to make sure you really are ready to go.
Somebody said 10-15 sessions for termination. I would say that for someone who has gone to the same therapist for 7 years, that would be an absolute MINIMUM! Some theories would hold that for very long term therapies, termination is another year's worth, in and of itself. It's THAT important!
I'm glad you heard from him. It's hard when they put all the feelings on you or call it irrational or tranference or projection. That really doesn't lessen the intensity of what you are feeling, and it doesn't first validate those feelings.
And I like the word *sshole, too. I say it in a certain way, and that's the way I read you saying it. With gusto!
((((shortelise))))
Take care, honey. It will get easier in time. I promise.
gg
Posted by daisym on June 21, 2005, at 1:04:38
In reply to T called, posted by Shortelise on June 20, 2005, at 15:23:39
(((Shorte))) -- You are not stupid and pathetic. You are hurt and scared. I hear all kinds of things but mostly what I hear is your therapist being "strong" for both of you -- he sent you out into the world and he doesn't want to make it easy for you to come home without really trying your wings first.
It reminds me of my husband and myself around our son. I say, "you can ALWAYS come home." My husband says, "but you will pay rent and work and pull your own weight. You aren't a child anymore and you aren't a guest." I think this sounds so harsh, but I do understand why he puts out those rules. And I also know that he'd be the first one to rescue the kid should he really fall on his face.
Tough love feels cruel. And I think it is unwarranted here, no matter what your diagnosis. But no matter what his motivations might be, however good intentioned, or what his experience with other clients has been, it doesn't change how his action feels to you.
If it were me, I think I'd go in kind of like this: "I can't presume to guess what is going on in your mind or what motivates your current demeanor. You might think you aren't being different, you might also think I'm projecting my fears. But no matter what you think, my reality is that I feel rejected and abandoned. You feel different to me. I've learned so much but I need this to still be a safe place to lay aside my emotional armor and let my vulnerabilities show. You don't see that I AM using all my skills out there in the real world every day. I guess I didn't know that termination turns you into one of the someones I need these skills for. I guess I didn't know that missing you was something I wasn't supposed to do. I guess I didn't know that I wasn't supposed to talk about my insecurities because you think that I'm sliding completely backwards. The honest truth is that I still want to look to you for refueling, compassion and a little cheerleading. I might not need to, but I want to. I knew this would be hard but I had no idea it would be devastating. How can this be good for me?"
I can't imagine what you are going through. My heart breaks for you. Please keep posting. We'll help you through this.
Posted by Dinah on June 21, 2005, at 2:05:36
In reply to Re: T called » Shortelise, posted by daisym on June 21, 2005, at 1:04:38
Daisy, that was incredible.
May I call on your communication skills should I ever be in an untenable position with my therapist?
Posted by Shortelise on June 21, 2005, at 5:07:03
In reply to Re: T called » Shortelise, posted by daisym on June 21, 2005, at 1:04:38
It's 3am for me, I'm just home from a job, and have to be back tomorrow evening, so I'm POOPED, but I have to say, Daisy, that really was incredible! That's exactly how I feel, and it's exactly what I need to say. Thank you from the bottom of my very tired heart.
How'd you DO that?
ShortE
Posted by gardenergirl on June 21, 2005, at 6:17:46
In reply to Re: T called » daisym, posted by Dinah on June 21, 2005, at 2:05:36
I absolutely agree. That was wonderful, Daisy.
gg
This is the end of the thread.
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