![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by cricket on October 12, 2005, at 11:06:29
First of all, my apologies for not being around much and giving any support. I know how much people help me here and I hope I can pull it together and respond more often.
Not good times at therapy. We are dealing with a part (adolescent girl) who doesn’t like him at all. But my therapist assured me time and time again that it’s okay for her to say stuff, it’s okay for her to be angry.
But then this past session, some past stuff came out, some childhood stuff and now all of a sudden the doctor says, “I have a lot of work to do. If we decide to do this, I have a lot of work.”
All I heard was the "if we decide to do this." What in the h*ll have we been trying to do for all of these years? Now he’s going to change his mind and decide it’s too much work.
Anyway, it all started because he asked this one why she felt like it was us vs. them. Why was he one of the them? He didn’t understand that.
She said because you’re like authority.
How authority? He was getting defensive already. Arms crossed. Body turned sideways.
You know like a cop, or a boss or a teacher or something. Okay maybe not so much like a cop. But like those other two.
I’m bossy? He’s sounding mad now. When have I ever been bossy?
I didn’t say you were bossy. Just that you were like a boss. You know authority. I’m supposed to do what you say. And then I can’t do it or I can’t do it right so I get called stupid.
Who ever called you stupid?
Everybody. In school and stuff.
Then she/I (we were switching back and forth) wound up telling him stories from school. How I had to stay in the picture book section of the library for years even though all the rich, white kids got to go to the chapter book section because those books were too difficult for me. How the teacher drew some glasses of water on the blackboard and I had this tiny little glass and it was filled all the way up to the top. But everybody else had these big glasses and they just had a bit of water but even their bit of water (just maybe one quarter filled) was more than mine. The teacher said that was why sometimes I could learn stuff and do well was that I was using every bit of my ability but I should relax more and not expect so much of myself and realize that I had limits (this was in 2nd grade, I think).
The doctor had his face screwed up in disbelief. How did they know this? They must have done some psychological testing, he kept on insisting. Did they do testing?
I said you don’t think people get judged based on the way they look, they act, they smell.
No, they must have done some kind of testing.
I don’t know I kept on insisting. I was 7 years old.
Did you get placed in special education?
I don’t think they had that. They just kept me back a lot and made me write my letters while the other kids got to go to art and reading groups and stuff.
Then junior high came and they said I needed to go to the vocational track.
I argued and argued and spent countless hours (where did I ever get the courage?) protesting that I wanted the academic track. I didn’t like typing. I certainly didn’t want auto mechanics. I liked to read.
Finally the guidance counselor relented. I clearly remember him – an old man who seemed more exhausted than anything else. He said we’ll try it for one semester, but I think we both know we’re making a mistake.
But then I got to high school and one teacher in 9th grade took pity on me or something. I, of course, was fighting a lot too and maybe they just wanted to protect the other kids. But then by the end of 9th grade, they put me in the Library and said I could be on independent study. I had to take tests in the classroom but I could do all my work in the library. I loved it. Six hours a day, completely alone, surrounded by books.
That’s when the doctor kept saying “I have a lot of work to do.”
He sounded so dismayed. "So now I see why you wanted to hold her back. Now I see why you didn’t want her (meaning the adolescent part) just to speak and let the chips fall where they may. I can just imagine some of the the things she would like to say to me."
Then he continued, “Now the chips have fallen. I have a lot of work to do,” he repeated. Then he said, “If we decide to do this.”
So now I am just angry with him. Angry that he is so privileged and so naïve to think that the world extends that same privilege to everyone. Angry that he wants to quit now when I have invested so much time and money into this.
He was quite defensive too. "I think it’s a paradox that in the eyes of most of the world you would be privileged too." And "you know rich people suffer too. We’re all the same in our suffering."
Ugh, ugh, ugh.
So once again I push a major button on my therapist. I don't disagree with anything he said. And I know, if past behavior means anything, next week he will think things over and realize that him saying over and over "I have a lot of work to do," isn't the most helpful thing in the world and he will come back with a better, fresher perspective on this.
But geez, sometimes I wish he would just say "Go away."
Posted by B2chica on October 12, 2005, at 11:42:57
In reply to The same old circle, posted by cricket on October 12, 2005, at 11:06:29
((((((((Cricket)))))))))
so sorry you had such a cruddy experience in school. i think your adolescent part has EVERY right to be angry. and it's obvious that your T would be like the teachers you encountered, he's older and an authority figure. i'm confused why he would get defensive about this...i do want to let you know that something similar happened to me, they had what's called 'tracking' in my school and there were 3. track 1 were college bound and successes. track 2 were may go to vocational college and track 3, forget about them. (not to mention if you looked at the population, all track 1 came from wealthy families, track 2 middle income and track 3...poor -coincedance? think NOT)
i was in track 2. i wanted to take an anatomy class and he argued that basically i wasnt smart enough and that my bad grade in that class would bring my average down even further. (i won, took the class and got an A :))
anyway, my so called advisor also basically said i should forget about going to college, find a nice guy and get married, settle down. i swear he was about 102 years old.
years later i have my B.S., finishing my M.A. and work in a high tech setting. so that old man can shove that attitude straight up his @@@.
i still have VERY strong hate feelings toward those teachers, i never got to read any really neat books (that almost everyone else in this country has read) because of the english classes they put me in.
and that's why to this day i HATE standardized testing, and believe in the multiple intelligence theory.sorry to go off about me. but i don't think your young one is wrong in feeling angry and oppressed by authority figures. and for your T to constantly say "i have a lot of work to do" quite frankly that's his problem not yours. if he didn't want WORK, he Definately should NOT have chosen psychology as a profession!
Please take care of yourself and i'd revisit this issue with your T. tell him you thought he was acting defensive and why he felt that way, that that's just how your young you felt, and has every right to feel that way.
(and maybe it's time for HIM to say byebye)
best wishes
b2c.
Posted by cricket on October 12, 2005, at 12:27:00
In reply to Re: The same old circle, posted by B2chica on October 12, 2005, at 11:42:57
>
> i do want to let you know that something similar happened to me, they had what's called 'tracking' in my school and there were 3. track 1 were college bound and successes. track 2 were may go to vocational college and track 3, forget about them. (not to mention if you looked at the population, all track 1 came from wealthy families, track 2 middle income and track 3...poor -coincedance? think NOT)Yes, exactly. Not sure what kind of lala land my therapist grew up in that he didn't experience it like that. Or maybe the track 1s are all so sure that they are there based on pure merit they never question the system at all.
> i was in track 2. i wanted to take an anatomy class and he argued that basically i wasnt smart enough and that my bad grade in that class would bring my average down even further. (i won, took the class and got an A :))
You go girl.
> i still have VERY strong hate feelings toward those teachers, i never got to read any really neat books (that almost everyone else in this country has read) because of the english classes they put me in.
Yeah, it's hard for me to believe everything I missed out on too.
> Please take care of yourself and i'd revisit this issue with your T. tell him you thought he was acting defensive and why he felt that way, that that's just how your young you felt, and has every right to feel that way.Thanks Chica. You take care of yourself too.
Posted by muffled on October 12, 2005, at 14:19:01
In reply to Re: The same old circle » B2chica, posted by cricket on October 12, 2005, at 12:27:00
At least you guys tried. I just blew off school like I blew off everything else. You guys should be proud you made an effort. Life sure isn't fair sometimes. I was an upper middle class h*nky chick. I was a useless loser. Skin color, money, looks, shouldn't matter, but all too often does. However losers come in all shapes and sizes. I'm doing better now, but I sure wasted alot. I try not to dwell on it.
Muffled
cracker,white,wh*tey,negro,black,half-breed, ch*naman,ch*nk,chunk. Oh this is too funny how this auto word changer thing changes the weirdest words.
By the way, I'm a mixed breed h*nky married to a purebred ch*naman(so he SAYS-got no papers man!) and have beautiful half-breed kids!!!!!!!!!!
So don't mean to offend anyone. To me people are people. I wish the rest of the world thought that way. Sometimes I think this world is such a f*cking sh*t hole.
Posted by muffled on October 12, 2005, at 14:22:02
In reply to Hey guys., posted by muffled on October 12, 2005, at 14:19:01
I don't know whats wrong with me today. I think maybe I'm being bad. Sometimes I just don't know. Thats why I stay away from people mostly.
Muffled
Posted by cricket on October 12, 2005, at 14:36:48
In reply to Sorry, posted by muffled on October 12, 2005, at 14:22:02
Hey Muffled,
No need for apologies here or for shutting up.
I think if my T took all of this a little lighter too we might be in a better place.
All he says well okay you didn't live a "mainstream" life.
No, I got re-channeled to the fetid swamp.
Posted by lookdownfish on October 12, 2005, at 16:22:11
In reply to The same old circle, posted by cricket on October 12, 2005, at 11:06:29
I would be so angry about his attitude: "I have a lot of work to do". That's not up to him to make you feel like you're burdening him. Makes my blood boil just thinking about it.
Posted by fairywings on October 12, 2005, at 23:52:26
In reply to The same old circle, posted by cricket on October 12, 2005, at 11:06:29
Cricket, I'm so sorry that you went through all that crap. Thankfully you were a fighter, and were able to hold your ground, but I can hear how much it beat you up emotionally, and I'm so sorry, it sounds so awful, and you didn't deserve it.
It sounds like your therapist doesn't understand about trauma very much, and he could benefit from reading a book like "trauma and recovery". His saying, "if we decide to do this" is something I just read about in the book. When a T starts to lose confidence in their ability, and starts to have a countertransference. It's terrible that he said those things to you, after you've worked so hard, and I don't blame you one bit for being angry. I hope you'll tell him how it made you feel to have him do this, it's like he's having a problem with being able to deal with this, and that's his issue, not yours.
I hope you will lay your cards on the table.
(((hugs))))
fw
Posted by fairywings on October 12, 2005, at 23:58:42
In reply to Hey guys., posted by muffled on October 12, 2005, at 14:19:01
> So don't mean to offend anyone. To me people are people. I wish the rest of the world thought that way.
>
The most beautiful and happy place I've ever been was Grand Cayman. My mom won a trip and gave it to us for our 2nd anniv. It seemed like about 90% of the people there are mixed - black and white. maybe more maybe less. They are the most beautiful people, and it seemed to me that everyone was so happy. It's a really small island, so it's not like you were off in resort areas or anything. It seemed really safe there too, I loved it, didn't want to come "home".fw
Posted by Tamar on October 13, 2005, at 4:39:27
In reply to The same old circle, posted by cricket on October 12, 2005, at 11:06:29
Gosh, what a difficult session! It seems it’s a good thing that you let the adolescent girl speak. But it sounds as if she’s somewhat justified in being uncertain of your therapist.
I’m a little astonished that he didn’t seem to realise that to an adolescent girl he would seem like an authority figure. And that he didn’t seem to understand how prejudices work institutionally in schools. I thought everybody knew that in this day and age. I guess that’s one of *my* prejudices… I’m glad you (and your adolescent part) are putting him right.
The stories you tell of school are heartbreaking. Were you the only one who was ‘different’? Or were there other kids in your school who experienced similar injustices?
Maybe your therapist does have a lot of work to do. Maybe it will be a lot of work for him to understand experiences that are evidently so completely different from his own. Maybe the ‘if we decide to do this’ isn’t so much an indication that he might give up on you, but an indication of his recognition that working with you might require him to learn new skills.
> So now I am just angry with him. Angry that he is so privileged and so naïve to think that the world extends that same privilege to everyone. Angry that he wants to quit now when I have invested so much time and money into this.
Perhaps he doesn’t want to quit. Perhaps he simply needs some time to assimilate what all this means for his work with you. But I can understand why you are angry. I can understand why you’re so distressed at his reaction. I can understand why he might *think* the things he said, but I’m not so sure why he would say them out loud. Frankly, I’m a little surprised that he didn’t expect something like this from the beginning of your relationship, if he knew that your background wasn’t ‘mainstream’. Dealing with the utter unfairness of childhood experience of discrimination should be something he’d expect to work on.
> He was quite defensive too. "I think it’s a paradox that in the eyes of most of the world you would be privileged too." And "you know rich people suffer too. We’re all the same in our suffering."
I think there’s a time and a place for challenging people’s assumptions. And if he were talking exclusively to the adult you, perhaps that might have been appropriate (you can, of course, disagree with him and it can lead to a good discussion). But I’m a little less certain that it made sense to say it in the context of a discussion with the adolescent girl. In that context, it sounds a little too much like the sorts of excuses she’s probably heard a million times.
I think perhaps he’s uncomfortable with being seen as part of the problem rather than part of the solution. And no doubt, like many therapists, he entered the field wanting to help people. But he can help best if he’s prepared to accept the social realities of the culture we live in. And he can help best if he doesn’t take your adolescent’s anger personally.
I do think it sounds as if he’s uncertain of his ability to help you. And he’s expressing that through defensiveness. I suspect he’s invested a lot emotionally in your therapy, but he’s making it all about him: asking if you think he’s bossy, and saying he has a lot of work to do, and stuff like that. I think he needs to take a step back and ask you what aspects of your relationship with him are difficult for you, and how those difficulties connect with your past experience.
> But geez, sometimes I wish he would just say "Go away."
Well, I’m kind of glad he’s not saying that! But it seems as if you’re having to be awfully patient with him at the moment. From everything you’ve said before, he’ll probably get there in a little while. It must be frustrating to have to wait for him to catch up. On the other hand, you’ve invested a lot in the relationship over the years. And I hope that once he does sort it out in his own mind he’ll realise that your adolescent part needs to be allowed to express her rage. And if she directs it towards him, he needs to be able to help her look to past experience to explore the sources of it.
It does sound as if you’re working really hard in therapy at the moment. Good for you!
Tamar
Posted by alexandra_k on October 13, 2005, at 5:08:34
In reply to The same old circle, posted by cricket on October 12, 2005, at 11:06:29
i'm poor. we were on welfare till i went into a girls home. we had PAT tests. and were streamlined into classes that were based on our PAT test rankings. I got into the second top class. And was a behaviour problem like you wouldn't believe. They thought I was bored (realising i had a huge difference between verbal and math) so they moved me up to the top class. And then... After a time... They moved me back. The reason?
They didn't like me associating with the people in that class. The teachers kids etc.
I was still a bit of a stirrer. But nothing like the behaviour problem I was before... But it didn't matter. I was distasteful to them.
Of course the top class... Got all the best teachers.
I remember math. I was thrown out of the class for the rest of the year. As 'punishment' I had to go to the head of the math department and he was supposed to give me some work to do or something. He didn't teach me math. He got me covering math books with clear plastic.
He asked me what I wanted to do after school...
I said I wanted to go to university...
He laughed. And said I would be a asset to any library.
F*ck him.
But worse messages...
The worst messages I've ever heard...
Came from the mental health service.Therapists don't need to remind me of teachers.
Not when they can remind me of other clinicians
and the things they've said...i'm sorry
not much help...I gave up on trying at school. Hated it. Detested it. Just couldn't wait to get to university.
Posted by muffled on October 13, 2005, at 11:34:31
In reply to Re: Hey guys. » muffled, posted by fairywings on October 12, 2005, at 23:58:42
Posted by fairywings on October 13, 2005, at 13:23:47
In reply to Sounds like a dream, wonderful! (nm) » fairywings, posted by muffled on October 13, 2005, at 11:34:31
Posted by cricket on October 13, 2005, at 13:50:49
In reply to Re: The same old circle » cricket, posted by fairywings on October 12, 2005, at 23:52:26
Posted by cricket on October 13, 2005, at 14:05:00
In reply to Re: The same old circle » cricket, posted by Tamar on October 13, 2005, at 4:39:27
Thanks Tamar. It's good to hear from you.
> Gosh, what a difficult session! It seems it’s a good thing that you let the adolescent girl speak. But it sounds as if she’s somewhat justified in being uncertain of your therapist.
>
> I’m a little astonished that he didn’t seem to realise that to an adolescent girl he would seem like an authority figure. And that he didn’t seem to understand how prejudices work institutionally in schools. I thought everybody knew that in this day and age. I guess that’s one of *my* prejudices… I’m glad you (and your adolescent part) are putting him right.
>
> The stories you tell of school are heartbreaking. Were you the only one who was ‘different’? Or were there other kids in your school who experienced similar injustices?
>
No, not really. Not in elementary school anyway. Weird zoning. We were in this isolated shack on the edge of this major country club/3 car garage type suburb.
> Maybe your therapist does have a lot of work to do. Maybe it will be a lot of work for him to understand experiences that are evidently so completely different from his own. Maybe the ‘if we decide to do this’ isn’t so much an indication that he might give up on you, but an indication of his recognition that working with you might require him to learn new skills.
>
I just wonder if he will decide it's just not worth it at his I guess you would say mid-career level. It's not like he's trying to build a practice or anything.> Well, I’m kind of glad he’s not saying that! But it seems as if you’re having to be awfully patient with him at the moment. From everything you’ve said before, he’ll probably get there in a little while. It must be frustrating to have to wait for him to catch up. On the other hand, you’ve invested a lot in the relationship over the years. And I hope that once he does sort it out in his own mind he’ll realise that your adolescent part needs to be allowed to express her rage. And if she directs it towards him, he needs to be able to help her look to past experience to explore the sources of it.
>
> It does sound as if you’re working really hard in therapy at the moment. Good for you!
>
Tamar, there is always so much wisdom in what you say. As you can see in my post below, I have a fear that my therapist might be reading here. But I wish he was here to read your posts. Perhaps I can send you his address :-)
Posted by cricket on October 13, 2005, at 14:10:27
In reply to Re: The same old circle, posted by alexandra_k on October 13, 2005, at 5:08:34
The worst messages I've ever heard...
> Came from the mental health service.
>
> Therapists don't need to remind me of teachers.
> Not when they can remind me of other clinicians
> and the things they've said...
>
> i'm sorry
> not much help...You're always a help to me Alex. I know that you had a rough time of it as a kid too. Not just with family but outside too.
>
I always had rescue fantasies as a kid. That someone would see me and take me away from it all. I was probably an abduction waiting to happen :-(
>
Posted by Damos on October 13, 2005, at 19:05:55
In reply to The same old circle, posted by cricket on October 12, 2005, at 11:06:29
Hey Cricket :-)
First, just want to apologise for being so slow to respond.
Our Tamar is a true blessing isn't she? I tend to agree with a lot of what she said.
Now you just feel free to tell me to 'F' off or shut the h*ll up anytime okay.
A lot of the difficulties in our relationships stem not from what actually happened or was said but from all the assumptions, judgements and stuff that we apply to and interpret things through.
It's interesting how you interpret his body language. Did you know that studies have shown that when the words and the body language conflict, we nearly always take the non-verbal message as the most significant. Body language and tone actually have a greater impact on our perception of trustworthiness than the actual words do. Even the clothes someone wears can have more significance than the words at times. Can't remember the actual figures but studies have shown that the words only represent about 10-15% of the actual message that is received.
Sorry but I had to laugh when you said "He was getting defensive already. Arms crossed. Body turned sideways." It took me 25 years to realise that pulled back in the chair, arms crossed with a really stern expression and crushing silence was actually my grandfathers mulling things over deeply position. I always read it as "You stupid little sh*t." It is very possible that he's done this all his life and doesn't even consciously realise he's doing it and also doesn't realise how it's being interpreted. It's also possible (and likely) that every client interprets every single thing he does in a way that is unique to them.
The purpose of assumptions is to test them. The problem is that if I don't share my assumptions with you or even let you know that I'm making them a) they never get tested so we don't know if they were right or wrong and b) we both proceed as though there weren't any and then can't understand why there are all these road blocks and barriers between us. Hence the saying "When you assume, you make an *SS out of U and ME."
His saying "If we decide to do this," to me could be his way of saying, "I know the risk/cost involved to you in going to these places and revisiting these things, and I care too much about you to just ASSUME that it's okay to do that." This seems even more likely to be true given he said it again after your revelations.
So lets turn things around and 'assume' he does understand why he would be perceived as an authority figure by the adolescent girl. Why would he pursue this line? Because what's important to him and the progress of your therapy is not whether he is or he isn't; but what it (being an authority figure) means to you/the adolescent girl, and every member of the family. ARRRGGHHHH, this is so hard to explain. He can't change the truth of your experience of anything, all he can do is work with you about the meaning of the experience. And to do that he has to understand how and why that can be true for you - develop shared meaning. It is only through shared meaning that other possibilities or what is true are possible. And you see, in your post you have revealed layers of what being an 'authority figure' means to you. You even right at the start made a really important distinction between different authority figures (cops, teachers, bosses). Now he can work out how to work with you on this.
I know it's hard to understand how he struggled with what you were saying. But each of us views the world through the lense of our own experience. For someone who has never actually experienced the kinds of discrimination and prejudice you describe, it'd be like you describing a meeting with martians. So what did he do? He accepted that the experiences are absolutely true for you and tried to understand the meaning of those expereinces for you. That's why the questions about the testing are important. It changes the meaning of the experience as is revealed in your response, "You don't think people are judged based on the way they look, they act, they smell." Remember before we spoke about how important it is for him to hear you speak your truth, you know, you needing to be able to admit that you have those thoughts and feelings before he can work with them.
I'm absolutely with you on the "Ugh, ugh, ugh" re his comments on privilege/suffering.
Like you said, he'll probably come back next week with a better, fresher perspective. The discomfort involved in getting to shared meaning is really important, but so damn hard.
Hope this helped a little. I'm so full of pride and admiration for you Cricket.
Damos
Posted by cricket on October 14, 2005, at 15:29:05
In reply to Re: The same old circle » cricket, posted by Damos on October 13, 2005, at 19:05:55
>
> A lot of the difficulties in our relationships stem not from what actually happened or was said but from all the assumptions, judgements and stuff that we apply to and interpret things through.
>
Yup. That's one of the reasons why Babble is so valuable. I can describe as objectively as I can, a word for word encounter with my therapist and I get many different interpretations.> It's interesting how you interpret his body language. Did you know that studies have shown that when the words and the body language conflict, we nearly always take the non-verbal message as the most significant. Body language and tone actually have a greater impact on our perception of trustworthiness than the actual words do. Even the clothes someone wears can have more significance than the words at times. Can't remember the actual figures but studies have shown that the words only represent about 10-15% of the actual message that is received.
>
Yes, somehow I think even more so in therapy, at least for me. I think well I am paying him to say nice, supportive things. But what does he really mean? So for that I look for all those non-verbal clues.> Sorry but I had to laugh when you said "He was getting defensive already. Arms crossed. Body turned sideways." It took me 25 years to realise that pulled back in the chair, arms crossed with a really stern expression and crushing silence was actually my grandfathers mulling things over deeply position. I always read it as "You stupid little sh*t." It is very possible that he's done this all his life and doesn't even consciously realise he's doing it and also doesn't realise how it's being interpreted. It's also possible (and likely) that every client interprets every single thing he does in a way that is unique to them.
>
Funny about your grandfather. I would have thought the same thing as you.> The purpose of assumptions is to test them. The problem is that if I don't share my assumptions with you or even let you know that I'm making them a) they never get tested so we don't know if they were right or wrong and b) we both proceed as though there weren't any and then can't understand why there are all these road blocks and barriers between us. Hence the saying "When you assume, you make an *SS out of U and ME."
>
Yes, and even though it makes it so much more difficult that we come from 2 entirely different backgrounds so that there is no common experience or almost language, there might be a lot of value to it.
> His saying "If we decide to do this," to me could be his way of saying, "I know the risk/cost involved to you in going to these places and revisiting these things, and I care too much about you to just ASSUME that it's okay to do that." This seems even more likely to be true given he said it again after your revelations.
>
> So lets turn things around and 'assume' he does understand why he would be perceived as an authority figure by the adolescent girl. Why would he pursue this line? Because what's important to him and the progress of your therapy is not whether he is or he isn't; but what it (being an authority figure) means to you/the adolescent girl, and every member of the family. ARRRGGHHHH, this is so hard to explain. He can't change the truth of your experience of anything, all he can do is work with you about the meaning of the experience. And to do that he has to understand how and why that can be true for you - develop shared meaning. It is only through shared meaning that other possibilities or what is true are possible. And you see, in your post you have revealed layers of what being an 'authority figure' means to you. You even right at the start made a really important distinction between different authority figures (cops, teachers, bosses). Now he can work out how to work with you on this.
>
That's interesting Damos. When I was talking about the one teacher who put me in the library and how I liked that. He said so she was a good authority. But then he said we can't do therapy on the library model. We have to be a team. So maybe he was getting at your shared meaning there.
> Like you said, he'll probably come back next week with a better, fresher perspective. The discomfort involved in getting to shared meaning is really important, but so damn hard.
>
I think that several months ago, I would just be whining why can't I have a therapist who is more like me, who has more direct experience with my issues. But right now I'm feeling more like I can only work some of this out with someone who looks and smells like what I have always perceived as the bad guy? Do you know what I mean?Lots of conflict to come I guess. Damos, I am really glad you are here to help me think things through.
This is the end of the thread.
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