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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Tamar on November 7, 2005, at 16:33:36
In reply to I'm afraid (slight trigger), posted by daisym on November 7, 2005, at 1:28:20
Oh Daisy, I’m sorry things have been so hard. I’m sorry you’ve been feeling afraid. And I’m very sorry that you had to cancel your therapy appointment.
> And sex has triggered all the different parts of me in so many different ways. I should have said no, but I still don't know how.
Maybe it takes practice. If you’re not used to saying no, it’s hard to know how to begin. But you *are* allowed to say no. And if it’s hard to imagine saying no outright, is it possible to imagine negotiating for sexual activities you might find less triggering (if there are any)? Before I was married I was frequently afraid to say no to sex, but eventually I learned it was easier for me if I gave the guy a hand-job instead of penetrative sex. And eventually I figured out that (the way I see it) sex should be something that’s offered rather than demanded. It should be an overture rather than a requirement. Of course, if you never like it then perhaps it’s hard to see it that way… Can you talk to your therapist about ways of saying no to sex?
I hope you hear from your therapist soon and that you get to see him. I know that restarting conversations is hard. Can you pick one thing you want to talk about and think about ways of getting into it? Maybe if you can find a way to talk about one thing, another will seem possible.Tamar
Posted by Dinah on November 7, 2005, at 17:10:59
In reply to I had to cancel today, posted by daisym on November 7, 2005, at 12:40:48
I'm sorry you had a sick kid. :( And that your therapist couldn't reschedule you. I hope your next appointment is soon.
I wish I had something useful to say, but I haven't figured out the sex issue yet at all.
Posted by antigua on November 7, 2005, at 21:33:37
In reply to Re: I had to cancel today » daisym, posted by Dinah on November 7, 2005, at 17:10:59
Daisy, are you any better now?
antigua
Posted by daisym on November 7, 2005, at 23:27:50
In reply to Re: I'm afraid (slight trigger) » daisym, posted by Tamar on November 7, 2005, at 16:33:36
Saying no to sex is a really hard thing for me. I tend to think of it as currency -- payment for support, something I'm supposed to do to meet his needs. I tell myself it isn't his fault that I'm having a hard time with all of this.
We talk about this a lot in therapy. But it is difficult not to turn the situation into a triangulation of sorts - I want my therapist to save me from sex because it triggers me so badly but he can't. So I feel trapped and very much like I did in the past. And he gets to play the role of my mother, except he knows. And I don't know if she knew. We've been round and round about this.
He tells me we will figure it out, we just have to keep talking about it. He is careful not to push because then I think he has expectations I can't meet, so I stop talking about it. But keeping it a 'secret' makes it ten times worse. He says what you said - find certain acts or positions that aren't so triggering. We agree that oral sex is something to be avoided right now as it sends me off the deep end. He encourages mutuality and asserting myself, hoping it will make me feel less vulnerable. There are times when he gently suggests that I begin to think about sharing my past with my husband...but I just can't yet. I don't know if I ever can. At my worst moments, my therapist will simply say, "tell him I said this is bad for you right now. Let me be the heavy." Feeling so much support usually helps me be more OK with either avoiding sex or spacing out during. I'm not as good at spacing out as I use to be. This isn't all bad, and I do want to figure out how to relax and enjoy sex. We've talked about this too -- what would make it better, what I might like, how slow and careful someone would need to be with me to make it safe. But when I feel young and vulnerable sex just triggers the ugly pictures.
I'm open to suggestions - I often wonder how other people who have experienced trauma learn to enjoy (tolerate?) sex. My therapist tells me it isn't something you can push, that as we work through all of this, I will feel more empowered around my own body. It is interesting to talk about all this within the safe context of my feelings for him. At first it was hard to do, but he has this way of just making it OK to explore the possibilities. And I think most of time we are in sync about what I need -- protection or openness to explore.
Right now I need protection. I want to hide under the sheets, blankets, pillows, mattress...you name it! I want to wrap myself in the warmth I find here and use it as a barrier from the world. Not very mature, I know.
Posted by daisym on November 7, 2005, at 23:52:55
In reply to Re: I had to cancel today, posted by antigua on November 7, 2005, at 21:33:37
My therapist called and after some fancy manuvering we figured out this weird time sandwiched between two of his sessions so that I could still make the doctor's appointment. It was a little weird seeing his other clients,coming and going, as there wasn't a time buffer, but it was better than not seeing him.
We talked about the fear last night and feeling so alone. I told him I missed him and he said I should have called. He said he likes the weepy me a lot so it would have been OK to hear to from her. (such a smart alex!) I finally figured out that what I'm really afraid of is this deeping gloom that has the dark pull of hopelessness and wanting to exit...stage left. He told me i just have to hang in until the new med kicks in. And I checked in again about his ability to hear all this, including hearing about these suicidal feelings. He said he isn't letting go and it is OK for me to cling tightly.
I'm glad I went. It wasn't hard to get started at all, it was hard to stop! I wish the sadness would ease up but it sure it great to have so much support.
Thank you all.
Posted by Tamar on November 8, 2005, at 6:22:20
In reply to Re: I'm afraid (slight trigger) » Tamar, posted by daisym on November 7, 2005, at 23:27:50
> Saying no to sex is a really hard thing for me. I tend to think of it as currency -- payment for support, something I'm supposed to do to meet his needs. I tell myself it isn't his fault that I'm having a hard time with all of this.
Yes, I think it’s not unusual to think of sex as currency in a marriage, especially as something women have that men want (though of course it can be the other way around). And there’s considerable cultural pressure on women to comply with men’s demands on the assumption that they’re meeting men’s needs. And yet a need for sexual release is something almost every man can manage alone. I wonder, though… I’ve always believed that sex within marriage should be about mutual consideration of the other’s desires and needs. You also have sexual needs, and perhaps at the moment those needs involve not having sex. No matter how hard that might be for a spouse to understand, it is something that he ought to be able to accept. Heck, you say it isn’t his fault you’re having a hard time with all of this, but of course it’s not your fault either.
> We talk about this a lot in therapy. But it is difficult not to turn the situation into a triangulation of sorts - I want my therapist to save me from sex because it triggers me so badly but he can't. So I feel trapped and very much like I did in the past. And he gets to play the role of my mother, except he knows. And I don't know if she knew. We've been round and round about this.
I can imagine what you mean. I don’t think there’s an easy answer – if there were, you’d have found it. But now at least you have more autonomy, even if you don’t believe you have the capacity to exercise it. Your autonomy and his knowledge can work together to make quite a difference.
> He tells me we will figure it out, we just have to keep talking about it. He is careful not to push because then I think he has expectations I can't meet, so I stop talking about it. But keeping it a 'secret' makes it ten times worse.
Yes, the last thing you need is to feel that he also has expectations of you that you can’t meet. But I can understand that secrecy makes it worse. You *will* figure it out, but (like sex) perhaps you need to keep the discussion slow and gentle.
> He says what you said - find certain acts or positions that aren't so triggering. We agree that oral sex is something to be avoided right now as it sends me off the deep end.
Finding alternatives seems to work for me. I’ve noticed that the triggers change… for many years, oral sex was something I was good at and enjoyed, and I had no triggers about it. I think I always had a feeling of being in control. But very recently it’s started to become a bit triggery, much to my horror and my husband’s dismay. However, I’m finding at the same time that activities that used to trigger me are now possible and even enjoyable… again, it’s best if I feel I’m in control. So I agree that avoiding oral sex would be a priority for you if it triggers you so intensely.
> He encourages mutuality and asserting myself, hoping it will make me feel less vulnerable. There are times when he gently suggests that I begin to think about sharing my past with my husband...but I just can't yet. I don't know if I ever can.
It takes a lot of trust to share stuff like that with a partner… and it’s hard to know how he’d react. I do think it can help if you can bring yourself to do it (I know it’s helpful for me to be able to talk to my husband about past trauma), but it has to be in your own time.
> At my worst moments, my therapist will simply say, "tell him I said this is bad for you right now. Let me be the heavy."
Have you ever told your husband that? Or do you worry that if you say that, he might start asking questions about why?
> Feeling so much support usually helps me be more OK with either avoiding sex or spacing out during. I'm not as good at spacing out as I use to be. This isn't all bad, and I do want to figure out how to relax and enjoy sex. We've talked about this too -- what would make it better, what I might like, how slow and careful someone would need to be with me to make it safe. But when I feel young and vulnerable sex just triggers the ugly pictures.
It’s good that you’re able to talk about what you might like and how it might feel safe. Even to consider the *possibility* that you could like it or that it could feel safe sounds like good work.
> I'm open to suggestions - I often wonder how other people who have experienced trauma learn to enjoy (tolerate?) sex.
The first thing I had to do was learn to enjoy it by myself. It was more difficult than I expected. I had to try several times and in several ways before it started to feel OK, and I had to keep telling myself it was OK. And once I got the hang of it, it was a little while before I could think about sharing what I’d learned with a partner. And even now sex is still far from perfect. Sometimes I have to remind myself that my body likes it, even if my mind is screaming at me to stop…
> My therapist tells me it isn't something you can push, that as we work through all of this, I will feel more empowered around my own body. It is interesting to talk about all this within the safe context of my feelings for him. At first it was hard to do, but he has this way of just making it OK to explore the possibilities. And I think most of time we are in sync about what I need -- protection or openness to explore.
I think it’s wonderful that you can talk about it in the context of your feelings for him. It seems the gentlest way.
> Right now I need protection. I want to hide under the sheets, blankets, pillows, mattress...you name it! I want to wrap myself in the warmth I find here and use it as a barrier from the world. Not very mature, I know.
Is there some rule that we have to be mature all the time? I must have missed that one…
I guess we sometimes need barriers from the world, at least until we can begin to imagine engaging with it again. If it keeps you safe, hide a while.
Hugs,
Tamar
Posted by antigua on November 8, 2005, at 6:40:31
In reply to Re: I'm afraid (slight trigger) » daisym, posted by Tamar on November 8, 2005, at 6:22:20
I loved what Tamar wrote; I hope she was as helpful to you as she was to me!
Sex is still such a difficult topic, but it has gotten so much better between my husband and myself. We have certain rules: for years it was no oral sex, but now I don't find that as triggering and if I do, I back up. This will sound funny, but I have to be in control. I don't like to be approached when I am asleep or in the dark, and my husband has gotten used to it. I used to have to have had a few drinks to loosen up, but since I don't drink anymore, that has made things a little different and me being in more control of when sex takes place has helped with that a lot.
Listen to your T. Question for you--blow me off if I'm just way off the subject, but do you think having sex with your husband somehow betrays your feeling for your T?
best,
antigu
Posted by gardenergirl on November 8, 2005, at 7:20:09
In reply to I saw him after all. (trigger), posted by daisym on November 7, 2005, at 23:52:55
I'm so glad you were able to get in to see him and that it helped.
You can hang tightly here, too.
(((daisy)))
gg
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2005, at 9:27:59
In reply to Re: I'm afraid (slight trigger), posted by antigua on November 8, 2005, at 6:40:31
I find the exact same thing about sex. Being approached unexpectedly or when I'm asleep feels very scary, but by making the overtures myself, I take that part of it out of the equation.
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2005, at 9:29:01
In reply to I saw him after all. (trigger), posted by daisym on November 7, 2005, at 23:52:55
I'm glad you were able to see him. It's amazing how much checking in with them helps.
Posted by Annierose on November 8, 2005, at 9:36:49
In reply to Re: I'm afraid (slight trigger) » daisym, posted by Tamar on November 8, 2005, at 6:22:20
I love what Tamar wrote too. I found her insights very helpful. Sex is full of complications for a lot of us. You are certainly not alone. The fact you can put words to it is HUGE. I'm struggling, but getting there.
Your relationship with your T sounds very warm and secure, a nice blanket to wrap yourself around when you're feeling blue and need a little comfort.
I also know that feeling, a sick child, a therapy appointment, the conflict. Been there a few times ... I'm usually so desperate to find a way to make my appointment. I'm lucky that I have a niece who goes to a local college and lives at home (2 miles away). She has been my "go-to" person in a pinch. Glad he found time for you in his schedule. Did you make eye contact with his other clients? It's so uncomfortable, but at the same time I like seeing what her other clients look like.
Hope your son is feeling better too.
Posted by B2chica on November 8, 2005, at 9:58:17
In reply to Re: I'm afraid (slight trigger), posted by antigua on November 8, 2005, at 6:40:31
antigua, i like what you said here, sex is a very difficult topic. and i like your rules, they reflect mine. i can't do oral sex at all and i don't like it on me either. i agree with the few drinks and i definatly like the being in control thing. for the first 4 or so years of marriage i HAD to be on top. now its better and i can be underneath.
i was so aggitated yesterday and i had therapy, my T said he's never seen me like that and i said "heck, i'm only slightly irritable and aggitated, imagine if i actually got mad, now you know why i don't want to get angry."
but he said he was very happy to see me like that and hopes i continue to feel safe in feeling that way in there. his only rules were (hehe) i can't beat him up, can't break anything of his in his office and can't scream so loud that the people in the front office can hear.
pretty decent rules if you ask me.
anyway i was being very blunt about an inciende that happened this weekend, i won't go into details but my hubbys' been "urging" sex from me for a while so sunday i finally caved and it was absolutly horrible. all i could imagine was my abuser, how it felt, what emotions i felt. all i did was close my eyes tight and prayed for it to be over. never letting my hubby know anything.sorry to make this about me. but i understand that this is all very difficult. and i'll always listen.
take care
b2c.
Posted by Shortelise on November 8, 2005, at 12:40:57
In reply to I saw him after all. (trigger), posted by daisym on November 7, 2005, at 23:52:55
"deeping gloom"
Daisy, I so feel for you.
Just keep breathing, ok?
((Daisy))
ShortE
Posted by daisym on November 8, 2005, at 17:06:15
In reply to Re: I'm afraid (slight trigger) » daisym, posted by Tamar on November 8, 2005, at 6:22:20
I think I have a similiar experience around oral sex. In my dating days (tmi warning) I felt powerful and in control when it came to this. I could stay virtually untouched and they were happy. I've talked about this in therapy and he thinks perhaps I was trying to master the fear it brings up for me, even if I refused to know for a long time what that fear was about. Since my memories are so loaded with visceral components, including smells, etc. -- this is one of those things that causes serious melt downs afterwards.
As far as telling my husband "no because my therapist said so" - nope, I've never done it like that. But just the fact that he offers himself as a barrier in those really hard times gives me permission to believe that it might be OK to say no. It is a rescue of sorts, relief for the younger parts of me that someone gets it. I don't know if that makes sense...
I asked today if it would be easier to engage in sex if I wasn't telling the stories again. The answer was 'probably.' That made the tears come and we did a lot of processing about why I need to tell the stories, even if they are getting in the way of this. Gosh this is all so hard. Who knew?
Posted by daisym on November 8, 2005, at 17:14:44
In reply to Re: I'm afraid (slight trigger), posted by antigua on November 8, 2005, at 6:40:31
I don't think sex with my husband betrays my feelings for my therapist. But for a long time I didn't want my therapist in my head when I was having sex, it felt like a betrayal of my husband. I've now reached this weird deal with myself that if I start to get triggered, I let myself hear him and keep me safe. I told my therapist this (I did not tell my husband) and he said he thought it was fine and that sometimes putting something grounding under my pillow or where I could see it might help keep me in the moment and not flip into old stuff. So I'm working on it.
Definately need to be in control and ready. Of course it is all so complicated when you are with someone who has an illness because you have to make allowances for that -- and sometimes he gets upset that things aren't working right, and anger and sex definately don't mix for me. These are the times I freeze up and feel very young.
Posted by daisym on November 8, 2005, at 17:16:26
In reply to Re: I saw him after all. (trigger) » daisym, posted by gardenergirl on November 8, 2005, at 7:20:09
Thanks GG. I am hanging tightly, can't you tell? I'm already worrying about posting too much again, with too much detail.
*sigh*
I should be working...
Posted by daisym on November 8, 2005, at 17:17:31
In reply to Re: I saw him after all. (trigger) » daisym, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2005, at 9:29:01
Why is that? What is it about their sheer calm presence that does that for us?
Let's bottle it and get rich.
Posted by daisym on November 8, 2005, at 17:25:42
In reply to Re: I'm afraid (slight trigger), posted by Annierose on November 8, 2005, at 9:36:49
I smiled at one of them -- and noticed she was wearing work out gear, so much sexier than anything I've ever shown up in! Grrr.
I left in tears so didn't look at the next one. I'll just pretend that the person was there to see one of the other therapists, k?
My son is going through another bout of anxiety/stomach aches. Hard to know what to do next, I feel guilty because he is probaly feeling a lot of my gloom How could he not? This is when being the only child left must really stink.
As far as being able to talk about sex, it took some work. I basically asked him to push me a little around this -- so when I stop mid-sentence he'll say, "tell me. It's OK." Or "I can hear it, go ahead." This makes is safe over and over again. And he is really great about ending with "I'm glad you told me that. I'm OK with it, you don't need to freak out later about what you said."
I still do, but...
Posted by daisym on November 8, 2005, at 17:29:24
In reply to Re: I'm afraid (slight trigger) » antigua, posted by B2chica on November 8, 2005, at 9:58:17
B2,
A friend of mine says, "intensity, not volume." I try to remember this during therapy.
You sound like you are struggling with many of the same things I am. I'm glad you can tell your therapist about them, as bluntly as you need to. I'm always asking if I'm giving too many details and he tells me to just talk like I want to, don't edit for him.
I think you are very brave for what you've written here and have been able to say lately.
Posted by daisym on November 8, 2005, at 17:34:39
In reply to Re: I'm afraid (slight trigger) » daisym, posted by Shortelise on November 7, 2005, at 1:48:13
I've thought a lot about what you wrote, but how do you know you are in the healing forest and not moving into the one of madness? Sometimes I feel like I'm coming apart.
It's grief -- deep old, frozen grief that thaws and feels real again. I'm not sure I'm on this journey from a position of strength, but rather a need for survival and recovery of my core self. There is a lot to take in and a lot to learn.
I will take you up on the offer to hold your hand in the darkness. I still find it very scary in here.
Posted by daisym on November 8, 2005, at 17:52:00
In reply to Re: I'm afraid (slight trigger), posted by happyflower on November 7, 2005, at 9:23:25
Thanks for making me smile. I love the image. And the hugs.
Posted by daisym on November 8, 2005, at 17:53:33
In reply to Re: I'm afraid (slight trigger) » B2chica, posted by fairywings on November 7, 2005, at 12:34:34
I think when I'm in mom-mode I can keep the sadness at bay better. So you are probably right, my son leaving left an empty space for it to creep out into. I wish I knew how to prevent that.
Thanks for the support.
Posted by daisym on November 8, 2005, at 17:54:22
In reply to Re: I had to cancel today, posted by rubenstein on November 7, 2005, at 13:13:05
Posted by daisym on November 8, 2005, at 17:58:38
In reply to Re: I'm afraid (slight trigger), posted by allisonross on November 7, 2005, at 15:23:01
I'm sorry you understand lonely. It is one of the worst feelings. I never cared before about being alone -- but lonely is a different beast.
As far as writing, I journal a lot. And we read it a lot in therapy. It does help to keep things going.
Thanks for your email.
Posted by B2chica on November 9, 2005, at 9:13:13
In reply to Re: I'm afraid (slight trigger) » B2chica, posted by daisym on November 8, 2005, at 17:29:24
> I think you are very brave for what you've written here and have been able to say lately.
you too daisy!
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