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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by LipGloss on November 27, 2005, at 22:31:39
In reply to Re: Angry flower :-( » annierose, posted by happyflower on November 27, 2005, at 22:23:25
Gee,
I always thought it was the audience member that threw panties at the performer. I never saw a performer throw them at the audience......just a thought.
Posted by happyflower on November 27, 2005, at 22:37:20
In reply to Re: Throwing Panties, posted by LipGloss on November 27, 2005, at 22:31:39
> Gee,
>
> I always thought it was the audience member that threw panties at the performer. I never saw a performer throw them at the audience......just a thought.That was part of what was so funny. :) It was just a joke and since my concert was coming up that following week, it was a little twist on what were talking about. My T got that is was a joke, and from his jokes he tells me, it was nothing. Can you see any humor in this? If not it is okay.
Posted by orchid on November 28, 2005, at 1:52:39
In reply to Re: Throwing Panties » LipGloss, posted by happyflower on November 27, 2005, at 22:37:20
Hi HF,
I wonder about something. Do you really think objectively that you and your T are soul mates? And if you married each other, your life will be full of happiness and joy? Or atleast that it will be very emotionally fulfilling?
These days, I have become very much convinced there is no such thing as soul mates. I keep thinking that I could have lived as happily with many men as I could have possibly lived with any one man. It is mostly about taking the efforts to make the marriage work. There really isn't that much of difference amongst different persons.
Why I am saying this, is, perhaps for the time being, maybe you can focus on your marriage more and leave aside things with your T and leave it for time to answer. For all you know, at the end of 2 years, you might be once again in love with your husband, and you may not think as highly of your T as you think now. Plus I agree with LipGloss in the fact that breaking families especially when kids are involved is really heartbreaking for everyone involved. You might end up regretting it in the long run.
Posted by orchid on November 28, 2005, at 2:00:38
In reply to For HappyFlower » happyflower, posted by orchid on November 28, 2005, at 1:52:39
>
> These days, I have become very much convinced there is no such thing as soul mates. I keep thinking that I could have lived as happily with many men as I could have possibly lived with any one man.-------
change the above to "I could have lived as happily with any man as I could have possibly lived with any one man that I thought I really liked"
Posted by happyflower on November 28, 2005, at 6:05:58
In reply to For HappyFlower » happyflower, posted by orchid on November 28, 2005, at 1:52:39
HI orchid,
I didn't believe in soul mates either until I met my T . It is hard to explain it, but it is a feeling of being one with that person. I felt this the first time I met him. I didn't know what the feeling was at first, but there is this connectedness feeling.
As far as getting married, even with a soul mate you still have to work at a marriage. No marriage is easy, it takes a lot of understanding, patience, love, and so many things on so many levels. But if you mesh with a person on a lot of levels, it is easier, not easy, but easier.
As far as my marriage, it takes two to save it. I am trying, but if the other person doesn't even want to talk to you or spend time with you , it makes it really hard to work on issues. Plus he refuses to do marriage therapy. So what am I suppose to do? Do I stay in sexless, emotionaless, empty marriage for the sake of my kids? I am still trying to weigh that out. This is what my remaining therapy sessions are about these days. I would have done with therapy months ago my T said, but because of what is going on in my marriage, I am still in therapy to help save the relationship.But it has been dead since last March. I have tried to do everything my T suggests. Nothing is working. I can't make him love me, if he doesn't epecially if he is in love with somebody else. ( a whole other issue, he won't talk about)
Meanwhile I am trying to help fullfill my life with other things to cover the void I feel. I am doing a lot of stuff, and it feels great, I am not just a wife and mother, but I have myself to be happy with. I am enjoying life so much now days. It is rich with converstaions with other people, playing music, doing yoga, working out everyday. I feel really good. I am also in training with my trumpet teacher to become a great classical trumpet player. Hopefully in a year, I will be trying out for some of the professional symphonies in my area. I feel like I am living out my dreams. It is wonderful, it is the only thing keeping me sane during my unhappy marriage.
If I can work it out with my DH, then yes, I want to stay in my marriage. I love my DH dearly and would love to keep my family together. But so far, we are nothing close to that.
Posted by allisonross on November 28, 2005, at 8:29:22
In reply to 3 days 12.5 hours to go!, posted by happyflower on November 27, 2005, at 22:29:13
Hi, all; have been following Happy's story. I have been in love with my t for over 2 years. The "elephant" in the room, has been discussed many, many times; we are authentic with each other.
I know he has feelings for me; it is obvious. He says he has been tempted. He says "as long as we talk about it, it isn't dangerous" (?!)...and as long as we don't act on our feelings. He also said: "I am afraid I am going to fall, and it would ruin my life."
From an article on the web: Transference or Reality? "The therapeutic relationship is the only occasion in which feelings for each other reeive special names (transference and countertranceference)
Such a generic name for a specific feeling. Nobody would doubt me if I said I had fallen in love with my neighbor, etc., but if I claim I have fallen in love with my therapist that is transference.
I would have fallen in love with my t (and told him), if I had met him anywhere else. He says he is "in pain, to a degree...if I am in pain." He knows that unrequited love is terrible and painful.
Someone mentioned something about men being pretty much alike, and learning to work and live with someone. Unfortunately, I disagree. I was married for 31 years to an abuser. He was as horrific as they get.
The difference between the "ex" and my t is as different as black and white.
I think what HappyFlower would like (is what everyone wants); simply affirmation of her feelings. She is intelligent and understands all the stuff that is going on, and it is possible to get hurt. I have been living in this pain of loving someone for over 2 years.
Criticism is criticism (no matter how gently put), and we all want to be understood (heard), and have our feelings affirmed.
I told my t that I would "rather be in pain WITH him, that be in pain WITHOUT him."
And so, the saga continues. We are so much alike it is scary (he has self-disclosed quite a lot). He said last year: "This is starting to look like a personal relationship." Duhhh, it has been for a very long time.
We cannot deny human nature. Put 2 people in a room for years..either there will be chemistry, or not. Obviously we all make our own choices on how to behave.
I've held the boundaries (ironic), but he has bent a lot of them.Bottom line? Love is love; it is real, and should be honored.
LOVE to you all/Ally
Posted by orchid on November 28, 2005, at 8:51:00
In reply to ALL/I'm in same boat/HUGE difference in men, posted by allisonross on November 28, 2005, at 8:29:22
Isn't it little too coincidental that every T seems to be attracted to their patient (atleast in the patient's opinion), and every patient feels that their Ts are their soul mates?
That is what makes it different from regular relationship.
Posted by happyflower on November 28, 2005, at 9:14:34
In reply to Re: ALL/I'm in same boat/HUGE difference in men » allisonross, posted by orchid on November 28, 2005, at 8:51:00
> Isn't it little too coincidental that every T seems to be attracted to their patient (atleast in the patient's opinion), and every patient feels that their Ts are their soul mates?
>
> That is what makes it different from regular relationship.Umm. I was attracted to my DH, and he was to me. I knew he wasn't my soul mate, but I did have a guy I was dating that was, but he died when we were dating.
I think if you have never experienced a soul mate, you really don't understand it. My T doesn't believe in soul mates either. But he sure had notice the weird coinsciences though.
And as far as the power imbalences they talk about. Maybe in the beginning of therapy he had some power over me during the therapy hour. But he no longer has that power over me. Things can change in the respect. But you know most relationships are not equal anyways. In my marriage I am more dominate than my DH, and he is 20 years older than me. No man has power over me, and it won't happen. I am too strong of a person for that.
People are people and you can't help who you are attracted to and who you fall in love with, my T has said this to me.
I also know a ton about my T, just like Ally and her T, so it isn't blind transference. We actually know them. And no it isn't all positive warm fuzzy thing either. I do feel equal to my T in that regard, he knows as much about me as I know about him.As far as being attracted to me, you can easily tell when a man is attracted to you. There are a lots of physical signs. Heck, and I am not bad looking either! LOL ;)
I have had several soul mates in my life, my grandmother, a old boyfriend, and now my T. It is a feeling that is hard to discribe to someone who hasn't felt it. But if you have felt it, you know it.
Posted by happyflower on November 28, 2005, at 9:21:07
In reply to Re: ALL/I'm in same boat/HUGE difference in men, posted by happyflower on November 28, 2005, at 9:14:34
Posted by orchid on November 28, 2005, at 9:42:36
In reply to Re: ALL/I'm in same boat/HUGE difference in men, posted by happyflower on November 28, 2005, at 9:14:34
What you have said is true. I hope things will work out well for you and your T.
In the meantime, I have made a decision to not talk about transference anymore. I have talked enough about it - and had enough of it and I am not interested anymore either. Let it be what it is - real or imaginary or whatever. :-)
Orchid (enjoying her time getting massages everyday and fooling around and chatting with strange people :-))
Posted by happyflower on November 28, 2005, at 9:46:49
In reply to I think I shall resign from talking transference » happyflower, posted by orchid on November 28, 2005, at 9:42:36
> What you have said is true. I hope things will work out well for you and your T.
Thank you Orchid, whatever happens it will be okay. :)
> Orchid (enjoying her time getting massages everyday and fooling around and chatting with strange people :-))I have never had a massage before. I would love to try it but doesn't it hurt? Sometimes my hairsylist does my shoulders and it hurts for days. Oh, am I one of your stange people you are chatting with? LOL Just kidding! (but I am a little strange, but I like being that way) :)
Posted by happyflower on November 28, 2005, at 10:04:18
In reply to :) » orchid, posted by happyflower on November 28, 2005, at 9:46:49
Posted by muffled on November 28, 2005, at 12:05:27
In reply to 3 days 1 hour to go! :) (nm), posted by happyflower on November 28, 2005, at 10:04:18
I came back and there was this thread so I was able to read it thru and it was so cool to see how it evolved. We got some seriously kind and caring people here. Wow, like totally so way cool. Like a life lesson or something. Really you guys are great. All of you.
I'm glad you still around happyflower, this'll chill out and there can be more fun. people sure like you here don't they? They really care. Freaky.
Muffled
Posted by allisonross on November 28, 2005, at 12:13:44
In reply to Re: ALL/I'm in same boat/HUGE difference in men » allisonross, posted by orchid on November 28, 2005, at 8:51:00
> Isn't it little too coincidental that every T seems to be attracted to their patient (atleast in the patient's opinion), and every patient feels that their Ts are their soul mates?
I don't know about any other t's being attracted to their clients. Of course it happens, but we are as men and women, attracted to whatever attracts us.
I saw 3 other t's (for the marriage stuff), and was attracted to NONE of them. So for me, it's not I'm in love for all of the obvious reasons (that they are kind, attentive, etc., etc).....the others were kind, etc..
..but were not (as far as I know; they never indicated anything like that), and were totally professional. I didn't feel they were my soulmates, and weren't the slightest bit---attracted to them.
>
> That is what makes it different from regular relationship.I've only felt like this about 1 other man......2 men in my life I knew were soul-mates; one just happens to be a t.
Posted by Voce on November 28, 2005, at 12:57:58
In reply to Re: ALL/I'm in same boat/HUGE difference in men, posted by happyflower on November 28, 2005, at 9:14:34
Sorry, I can't let this soul mate thing go uncommented on. I think, Happyflower, that your relationshp with your T is very different from what mine was, just because you say you know as much about him as he knows about you. That's a lot of info to know about a T, considering that we tell them about our rotten childhoods, our fears, weaknesses, vulnerabilities and secret dreams.
I remember thinking that my T was the perfect man, my soul mate. Granted, I didn't know anything about him except his first and last name, and the town in which he lived. And that he was terribly kind, gentle and compassionate. We connected in an intellectual level and and our minds worked a lot the same way. When I would take a rabbit trail on something, or speak vaguely or in metaphors, he was always able to keep up with me.
But sometimes I try to imagine, on a very specific level, how we would have connected outside the therapy room. If I had ended up married to him, I wonder if we could have communicated like that given the trials of life, fiances, kids, and then there's the fact that two different people always see things differently. And of course the usual male/female differences. I think it would have been different just because IRL, there isn't time or energy to communicate on that intimate, personal level that works well in the therapy room. In therapy, there is always time to analyze and re-analyze.
The other thing too, is that in the therapy room only MY needs were considered. His sole purpose was to help and validate me, never mind his personal opinions abour what I was doing with my life. I can only imagine how it would have been different had we gotten married. We would have had his feelings to deal with as well when it came to career choices, family issues, money, sex, and our marriage.
As far as my fiance, we communicate pretty well, but it's much harder than therapy a lot of the time. We have to say how we are feeling honestly, but keeping in mind the other's feelings. There are things I don't share with him because there wouldn't be any point. As opposed to therapy, where I shared everything, even my feelings about him, which weren't always, shall we say, complementary.
Happyflower, I don't know enough about the details of your therapy relationship to really comment on it, but at least you've made me think long and hard on this issue. As far as soul mates go, I don't know if I believe in them, but I think my fiance and I are the closest thing to soulmates that exist. But only through a lot of hard work, because it hasn't always seemed like we were.
Posted by Voce on November 28, 2005, at 13:15:34
In reply to 3 days 1 hour to go! :) (nm), posted by happyflower on November 28, 2005, at 10:04:18
I think your relationship with your T has made your realize what's missing from your marriage, and that you deserve better. I'm glad he's been so caring about you. And I'm also sorry about your marriage, and that you want a divorce. I can't imagine how sad and rejected you must feel from your hubby. :-(
Posted by alexandra_k on November 28, 2005, at 14:57:48
In reply to And also » happyflower, posted by Voce on November 28, 2005, at 13:15:34
for the sceptics out there:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/relate/20051002/msgs/568417.html
It is on romantic love / 'soul mates'
Posted by happyflower on November 28, 2005, at 15:04:55
In reply to Soul mates and T's » happyflower, posted by Voce on November 28, 2005, at 12:57:58
I do know for me that when you meet a soul mate you know instantly, it isn't anything you do or not do. Both of my last soul mates were passed away at least 15 years, so I didn't immediately reconize the feeling as a soul mate feeling at first. But there was a feeling when I first met him. It was the same feeling. I know it sounds crazy, kinda like how can EMDR really work, all they do is wave a finger in front of your face, and you are healed, but I believe in soul mates.
Soul mates aren't always romantic soul mates either, it could be my T was the one who was going to help me heal my past. But if I told you all the signs, and coincedenses, I think you would get an idea how much in our lives are in common. This is commom with people who are your soul mates. But for me it is a feeling.
Now if you get lucky and meet your soul mate and get married, you would still need to work at your relationship. But it would be easier because you have so much in common. Now that my kids are half grown, it would nice to be with someone who shares a lot of my interestes and who agree on a lot of core hot topics of life. Most people are not so lucky, I just hope I might be. :)
Posted by LipGloss on November 28, 2005, at 15:17:47
In reply to And also » happyflower, posted by Voce on November 28, 2005, at 13:15:34
> I think your relationship with your T has made your realize what's missing from your marriage, and that you deserve better. I'm glad he's been so caring about you. And I'm also sorry about your marriage, and that you want a divorce. I can't imagine how sad and rejected you must feel from your hubby. :-(
Happyflower,
I agree with Voce on this.
I also want you to know that I understand the feeling you are having and in no way am I trying to diminish their depth. I identify very much with your situation and feel for you.
I would like you to think of some things that you have now that you would not have if your relationship with your T moves to the next level.
1. You would not have 50 min. a week of his undivided attention. His wife does not even get that. Not in the way that you do in session.
2. You would no longer have the fantasies about him. They would be taken away forever. Real life with him might sound like a better deal but it could never measure up to your fantasies.
3. You would actually lose some power. You would be the "new" girlfriend or wife that would have to start watching her back for girls like you or me that might have their eye on him. It's better to feel like the huntress.
We may have started out on the wrong foot.(my fault). I hope we can be friends.
LipGloss
Posted by alexandra_k on November 28, 2005, at 16:35:14
In reply to Re: Soul mates and T's » Voce, posted by happyflower on November 28, 2005, at 15:04:55
> Both of my last soul mates...
Then how about waiting to find a 'soul mate' who it is appropriate for you to have a relationship with?
Posted by happyflower on November 28, 2005, at 21:11:51
In reply to Re: Soul mates and T's » happyflower, posted by alexandra_k on November 28, 2005, at 16:35:14
Thanks everyone for all your concern, I know some of you really care, and that means so much to me. I know we all don't agree, but I am glad we can all help one another. I am glad this site is here for people. I need to get to bed for now. I think this my therapy subject is now closed. Thanks! :)
Posted by NikkiT2 on November 29, 2005, at 11:30:23
In reply to 2 days 12 hours and counting, posted by happyflower on November 28, 2005, at 21:11:51
For a few days..
If your T is your true soul mate, and the love is real.. the surely you will do anything to be with him?
If so.. then you need to find a new T, and start living out the two years before you could consider being together without your T losing their license.
I think, truthfully, a new T is needed, desperately.
One of the therapists I work with had *terrible* problems and nearly lost their job because a client was in love with them, and could *honestly* see how much the therapist was in love with them. The problem was, the therapist *wasn't* in love with them.. yes, they liked them, as many therapists like and respect their clients.. but it caused such pain and heartache for the therapist, his wife, his managers and his colleagues.
I don't know your T, so I have no idea of his feelings for you. But, if they are even suspected, you HAVE to stop seeing him. The only way you could be together would be to stop seeing him.
Maybe now is the time to face him over this. Say "I am in love with you. If you are in love with me, tell me, and we can start working on finding me a new T so that one day we can be together".
I am a believer in soul mates. I've had a few - only one was romantic - and he's my husband. being soul mates doesn't make the marriage any easier (those on PB2000 can back THAT up!)..
But, please.. this needs sorting. You need to know, for your own and your families sake, whether the feelings are reciprocated..
Nikki
Posted by allisonross on November 29, 2005, at 15:27:35
In reply to uh-oh, posted by Shortelise on November 27, 2005, at 12:39:49
> Hi, ShortE: I am relataively new here, and I love how you write.
Forgive me for jumping in feet first into others' coversation.
>
> I just want to say that I respect both Lipgloss and Voce for what they are saying.As I stated in a previous thread, I am in the same boat as happyflower....in love with my t for over 2 years. We have discussed it many times.
He handled/handles it delicately and ever so gently; like a feather when in falls on your hand; you cannot feel it (woops, gettin' poetical now, LOL, LOL)
>
> Lipgloss, I trust that Happyflower's T has a handle on what's going on with her, and he'll help her through it. It's good to hear your "voice of reason", saying what you see as the truth in a gentle way. I personally need that truth from people sometimes, and I count on the people here to tell me.
>
> Voce, I love that you point out that we are supportive of each other. I see nothing in Lipgloss's posts that are unuspportive, but obviously both you and Happyflower do, and your care for her is so reassuring.
>
> There is so much care here. It warms me, and I hope this contretemps doesn't leave hurt feelings. Happyflower, really, I trust that you are on a journey of healing with your T, and that you can talk with him about all these feelings. You are so rich with emotion!I told happy, I thought we must be twins, LOL.....unrequited love is terribly painful, and I visit it every Sunday. I told him that I would rather "be in pain WITH him, that without him."
I felt we were soul-mates shortly after meeting him, and it just grew. I told him that he was ME, in male form, LOL........Only felt like that about 2 other men in my whole life.
Contretemps......haven't heard that word in so LONG....me being a lover of words, etc.
If you wish, you may read my poetry: www.churchabusepoetrytherapy.com
Kicked out of church after 31 years of abusive marriage ended in divorce.......going through the grieving process now; 5 months of dealing with the only fear I really ever had.....that of being alone.
Thank you for listening; I sense a kindred spirit.
Smiles, Ally
>
> Hugs to all
>
> ShortE
Posted by Shortelise on November 29, 2005, at 15:51:32
In reply to Re: uh-oh/Contretemps » Shortelise, posted by allisonross on November 29, 2005, at 15:27:35
Thanks, Allisonross, you're very kind.
ShortE
Posted by allisonross on November 30, 2005, at 3:43:12
In reply to Re: uh-oh/Contretemps, posted by Shortelise on November 29, 2005, at 15:51:32
This is the end of the thread.
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