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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 36. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on August 8, 2006, at 11:55:57
I told my therapist about my difficulties getting enough energy for proper hygiene, and that I rarely washed my hair unless I was seeing him or a doctor. He wanted to know why that was (that I bothered before seeing him or a doctor), and I confess that I'm not quite sure. Is it because they have the power to label me officially? Is it because they'll write it down in my permanent record? Client appears dishevelled, with filthy hair.
Then he said it was passive aggressive on my part. I'm not quite sure who I'm supposed to be passive aggressive to. I'm not angry at anyone who would care if I wash my hair or not, or groom as well as I should. I think it's more my overall ennui that followed my latest enthusiasm, not passive aggressiveness.
But what really bothered me was that he grabbed a bunch of kleenex from the client kleenex box to sop up something he'd spilled, and when he did another bunch fell on the floor. He picked them up and put them back in the box. Ick. It's like rubbing my nose and eyes on his floor.
Posted by Toph on August 8, 2006, at 12:45:20
In reply to The strangest things bother me, posted by Dinah on August 8, 2006, at 11:55:57
I hope I'm not way off base here Dinah but some people who are perfectionistic become paralyzed by certain aspects of their lives in which they can't seem to achieve perfection. Some really bright and accomplished people have hygiene issues, Thomas Edison I think had this problem. I've always had an impression of you as an exacting person. It surprised me when you disclosed this aspect of your life. Is it possible that you've set an unattainably high standard for yourself and in actuality your hygiene is just fine?
Posted by Dinah on August 8, 2006, at 13:00:57
In reply to Re: The strangest things bother me, posted by Toph on August 8, 2006, at 12:45:20
Nope. By any standards my hygiene is off at times. It's a pretty accurate reflection of my mood, and I wish my therapist had focused on that aspect of it, as I had intended.
I'm not really a perfectionist you know. :) Ask my husband.
I like to be "good" and my OCD tendencies are around that area and around causing harm to others. I tend to be a bit perfectionistic at work (which is why I have so much trouble doing work at times). And in parenting of course.
In other aspects of my life, I'm pretty easy going and tolerant of imperfection.
Posted by vwoolf on August 8, 2006, at 13:51:54
In reply to The strangest things bother me, posted by Dinah on August 8, 2006, at 11:55:57
I find that when I am depressed, even slightly, it shows in my grooming. In fact for me it is one of the ways I recognise the onset of depression. Usually at the beginning I am still able to function adequately at work and in other spheres, but there is this outer fringe that starts to wilt. Could you be harbouring an underlying depression that isn't being treated?
Posted by Dinah on August 8, 2006, at 14:16:43
In reply to Re: The strangest things bother me, posted by vwoolf on August 8, 2006, at 13:51:54
I think it's not unlikely.
I just don't know how long it will last. I've only had long lasting depression a few times in my life. Usually it is fairly fleeting. The upside of cyclothymia.
I guess he's more therapist than pdoc. I offered it to him as a way to help me keep track of what's going on with me, and he made an interpretation of it. I'll try to keep track myself. I'm thinking it's been a couple of weeks, but I tend to lose track of time in the best of circumstances.
Posted by MidnightBlue on August 8, 2006, at 15:16:03
In reply to Re: The strangest things bother me, posted by Dinah on August 8, 2006, at 14:16:43
Dinah,
A couple of weeks since you washed your hair? Please tell me I'm reading that wrong! Though I know there are people who go several months without washing their hair.
To me there is grooming and there is grooming. I have to wash my hair at LEAST every third day. Usually every other day. It gets hot, sweaty, oily, and dirty. Like right now I have clean hair (washed it last night) and combed it this morning. But I did NOT curl or style it. And I washed my face and brushed my teeth, but I did NOT put on makeup. If I were a guy, I would have done a lot, but I'm not, so I look rather undone.
And I have on clean clothes but NOT my best. I think I could open the door and no one would be repulsed, but I do NOT look good. This is about as "sloppy" as I get. I can't stand greasy hair or face or fuzzy teeth.
I'd freak out about the kleenex on the floor, too! But I will drink soda pop out of a can without washing the top.
MB
> I think it's not unlikely.
>
> I just don't know how long it will last. I've only had long lasting depression a few times in my life. Usually it is fairly fleeting. The upside of cyclothymia.
>
> I guess he's more therapist than pdoc. I offered it to him as a way to help me keep track of what's going on with me, and he made an interpretation of it. I'll try to keep track myself. I'm thinking it's been a couple of weeks, but I tend to lose track of time in the best of circumstances.
Posted by Dinah on August 8, 2006, at 15:40:06
In reply to Re: The strangest things bother me » Dinah, posted by MidnightBlue on August 8, 2006, at 15:16:03
No, I generally wash it when I see my therapist or a doctor, even now. Ordinarily I wash it probably every other day.
So my therapist says we'd better stick to twice a week therapy just for that. I kind of wish I hadn't told him. He's so meticulous himself.
I don't know. There are lots of things, but that seemed an easy one to watch. I could have mentioned that I can't tell hunger from mild nausea. Or any number of tiny little things. That one just seemed easy.
Of course, since he didn't get the point of what I was trying to tell him, it wasn't worth telling him at all.
Posted by Poet on August 9, 2006, at 9:22:36
In reply to The strangest things bother me, posted by Dinah on August 8, 2006, at 11:55:57
Hi Dinah,
I would have plucked those tissues out of the box and thrown them away in front of my T if she did that. Actually I would have had to wait to throw them away because she doesn’t have a wastebasket in her office. Good thing I never cry so I don’t need tissues; what do the people do with used ones? Sorry, I got off track.
Maybe you don’t want your T or pdoc to *see you as you really are* because you’re afraid they’ll think that it’s more than you don’t have the energy to wash your hair, it’s something deeper that you don’t want to talk about. *Wow, look at that hair, something must be very wrong today.*
When I was unemployed I didn’t dress as nicely for appointments as I do when I come from work and it didn’t bother me. Except, once, I got home and realized my shirt was inside out. My T never said a word and she had to have noticed that the pocket was on the inside.
You said you’re not depressed, and I don’t agree with your T’s idea of passive aggressive, either. You know your body and mind and if you think it’s your overall ennui then I’d go with that. In any case I hope it passes soon.
Take care.
Poet
Posted by Dinah on August 9, 2006, at 11:56:11
In reply to Re: The strangest things bother me » Dinah, posted by Poet on August 9, 2006, at 9:22:36
I really wanted to pick them out of there, or at least mention something to him. It's not actually the kleenex that bothered me as much as the fact that it seemed thoughtless to do that in front of someone who might use that box. He ought to at least have put them aside until I left. And the answer is that you hold the wadded up kleenex until you leave. :) I don't cry all that often, but that's what I do. It leads to an awkward handing over of the check.
I guess the good news is that it's shamed me into being a bit more diligent. I guess the bad news is that I feel ashamed around him.
Posted by Jost on August 9, 2006, at 13:17:50
In reply to Re: The strangest things bother me » Poet, posted by Dinah on August 9, 2006, at 11:56:11
Do you pay every visit? My T gives me a bill and I mail payment once a month.
But Dinah, you're funny sometimes-- my reaction would have been to tell him to throw those out! You're very thoughtful and restrained not to have said anything.
Plus I like that what bothers you is that he did it front of you-- not that he did it. :)
Jost
Posted by Dinah on August 9, 2006, at 13:39:31
In reply to Re: The strangest things bother me » Dinah, posted by Jost on August 9, 2006, at 13:17:50
I wish my therapist had as fine behavioral distinctions as you do.
It's not the first time I haven't said something. He's done things like pick his nose in front of me, and it always leaves me feeling vaguely disrespected. I've decided to find it charming. Although once, this very fastidious man rubbed at something on his shoe, then licked his finger, and rubbed again. And I was really curious as to why it was ok to put in his mouth something that was too offensive to remain on his shoe. :)
Yes, I pay at each session. Only one of the other mental health professionals I visited did monthly billings. It must not be the custom here.
Posted by annierose on August 9, 2006, at 16:06:12
In reply to Re: The strangest things bother me » Dinah, posted by Poet on August 9, 2006, at 9:22:36
I can't believe your Ts do not have a waste basket. I do cry, at least once a week, and thankfully I found her waste basket by her desk. Since I lie down, I'm over on that side of the office, so it's an easy pitch for me.
Dinah - I can't believe he put the tissues back in either. At least you know he feels comfortable around you to act just like he does at home. The stories his wife could tell you ...
Posted by littleone on August 9, 2006, at 21:25:25
In reply to Re: The strangest things bother me » Jost, posted by Dinah on August 9, 2006, at 13:39:31
> Although once, this very fastidious man rubbed at something on his shoe, then licked his finger, and rubbed again. And I was really curious as to why it was ok to put in his mouth something that was too offensive to remain on his shoe. :)
You make me smile. You have such a special way of looking at things. Although I must admit the rubbing your eye on the floor comment still gives me the heeby jeebies. Eyeballs freak me out a little.
Posted by Jost on August 9, 2006, at 21:41:02
In reply to Re: The strangest things bother me » Jost, posted by Dinah on August 9, 2006, at 13:39:31
> Although once, this very fastidious man rubbed at something on his shoe, then licked his finger, and rubbed again. And I was really curious as to why it was ok to put in his mouth something that was too offensive to remain on his shoe. :)
>
>Yuck!! Are you sure it was the same finger? If so, maybe he's not as fastidious as you suppose?
I do like the way you pose the question, though. Quite a conundrum :)
Jost
Posted by Dinah on August 9, 2006, at 22:46:08
In reply to Re: The strangest things bother me, posted by Jost on August 9, 2006, at 21:41:02
Same finger. :)
I was watching in complete fascination.
Posted by Dinah on August 9, 2006, at 22:47:03
In reply to Re: The strangest things bother me » Dinah, posted by littleone on August 9, 2006, at 21:25:25
I'm sure my hypothetical lids were closed in the crying position. No eyeballs. :)
Posted by Dinah on August 9, 2006, at 23:33:41
In reply to Re: The strangest things bother me Dinah » Poet, posted by annierose on August 9, 2006, at 16:06:12
I think I know quite enough. :)
Posted by cecilia on August 10, 2006, at 7:59:14
In reply to Re: The strangest things bother me Dinah » Poet, posted by annierose on August 9, 2006, at 16:06:12
A T without a wastebasket?!!!!!!! That's a pretty clear message-I don't want to see your feelings. After the long term T I saw for 7 years (who at least, like most T's, did have a wastebasket by the client's chair) got sick of me I saw a few T's for short periods trying to see if I could imagine one being able to help me get over the excruciating feeling of abandonment. I'd forgotten until this thread one of the reasons I didn't trust one of the many lousy T's I saw-her wastebasket was across the room and to pay her you had to go through the humiliation of walking across the room holding dozens of soggy Kleenexes. T's never do anything by accident. It was pretty obvious that she didn't spend $10 on a 2nd wastebasket because she didn't want to deal with tears. Cecilia
Posted by cecilia on August 10, 2006, at 8:11:47
In reply to Re: The strangest things bother me Dinah, posted by cecilia on August 10, 2006, at 7:59:14
I mean the wastebasket, like the hundreds of boxes of Kleenex the average T must buy each year, would even have been tax-deductible! I wonder if the IRS has a standard amount they expect a T to deduct for Kleenex?
Dinah, your T's little habits definitely would turn my stomach!
Anyone remember the old Ellen show where Ellen happened to see her T peeing in the parking lot?
Cecilia
Posted by Jost on August 10, 2006, at 11:42:17
In reply to Re: The strangest things bother me Dinah, posted by cecilia on August 10, 2006, at 8:11:47
> I mean the wastebasket, like the hundreds of boxes of Kleenex the average T must buy each year, would even have been tax-deductible! I wonder if the IRS has a standard amount they expect a T to deduct for Kleenex?
>
> Dinah, your T's little habits definitely would turn my stomach!
>
> Anyone remember the old Ellen show where Ellen happened to see her T peeing in the parking lot?
>
> Cecilia
>
Cecelia, let's look on the plus side. Maybe the T with the wastebasket across the room was trying to help Ps improve their eye-hand coordination?My T told me that his first training analyst didn't have a bathroom. (At least not one that Ps could use.) And you had to sit in the hall waiting for her.
And when he asked one time about a bathroom,, she told him he should go before he came. Then he wouldn't need one while there! And this was a training analyst at a wellknown Psychoanalytic Institute! Whom he saw for several years.
I'm pretty sure he went to another training analyst on his own, afterward, to try to undo the damage she did.
What a world.
Jost
Posted by Dinah on August 10, 2006, at 13:52:05
In reply to Re: The strangest things bother me Dinah, posted by cecilia on August 10, 2006, at 8:11:47
> Anyone remember the old Ellen show where Ellen happened to see her T peeing in the parking lot?
>
> Cecilia
>lol. No, but I'm tempted to buy all of Season 4 just to see it.
I know my therapist's human, but I don't think I EVER need to know he's that human.
About the trashcan, I think there's one somewhere in his room. I just don't know where it is, and it's not convenient to the sofa or chairs. I don't think it's because he doesn't want me to cry. He encourages me to express my emotions. I think it's more that he doesn't think of these things. Neither did I really.
Posted by Dinah on August 10, 2006, at 16:00:55
In reply to Re: The strangest things bother me Dinah, posted by cecilia on August 10, 2006, at 8:11:47
I do remember the episode of "The Nanny" where Fran Fine sees her therapist picking his nose at a movie.
Posted by Tamar on August 10, 2006, at 18:06:00
In reply to The strangest things bother me, posted by Dinah on August 8, 2006, at 11:55:57
I don’t usually cry in therapy, and anyway I always have kleenex in my purse. But my therapist sneezes almost every session. He must have allergies or something. So he uses lots of kleenex and the trash can is over on his side of the room. But on one occasion recently I actually used kleenex from his box, and he moved his arm towards me as if he was going to put out his hand to take it from me. I tried so hard not to laugh. It was almost enough to start up a mother transference…
I agree that not washing your hair seems like more of an indication of your mood than anything else. I would be quite interested to know what your hair symbolises in your relationship with your therapist. I know you’ve mentioned before that he suggested you could dye it. And wasn’t there another therapist who disapproved of your braids?
I think women’s hair is often seen as a symbol of femininity, sexuality, and above all conformity. Have you ever seen the Salpetriere photos of ‘hysterical’ women taken by Charcot and his cronies? Wild, unkempt hair suggested not just an untamed personality, but also an untamed sexuality. It just wasn’t how women were supposed to wear their hair. Any woman who would permit herself to be photographed with her hair like that had to be ill, or so the theory went. Hair is perceived as an expression of the psyche.
I wonder if your therapist disapproves of the way you wear your hair, and perhaps sees your lack of hair hygiene as an aspect of a kind of ‘rebellion’ against conformity. And who knows, maybe there’s something in that, though I expect it’s more complex than it seems. Calling it passive aggressive seems like overstating the case. Unconventional it may be. But passive aggressive? Really? I just don’t see it.
Do you think it’s possible that your hair is something that belongs in a way to Emotional Dinah?
I don’t know what I’m talking about, of course, so please feel free to ignore me.
Tamar
Posted by Jost on August 10, 2006, at 22:34:39
In reply to Re: The strangest things bother me » Dinah, posted by Tamar on August 10, 2006, at 18:06:00
Where's his clock? Can you see it, too? I find that where Ts keep their clocks can be maddening.
I went to one whose clock I could never locate. I would watch where he looked very carefully, to try to figure out where the thing was.
I could absolutely never catch him looking anywhere. I mean he just never would look away form me, toward the end
Finally, after ages of searching around, I realized it was on a shelf Right Behind My Head. I mean, slightly to one side, literally an inch from my right ear.
I couldn't get it out of my mind-- that he had set up this elaborate ruse--so while he appeared to be listening with rapt attention, he could be staring right past me at the clock just watching the seconds count down.
Jost
Posted by cecilia on August 11, 2006, at 6:26:25
In reply to Re: The strangest things bother me, posted by Jost on August 10, 2006, at 22:34:39
I think the clock behind the client is a standard ruse they teach in T school. But I just can't believe these T's who don't think of providing Kleenex or wastebaskets. Don't they expect tears? That's like a surgeon not expecting blood. I had 632 sessions with my ex-t before she gave up on me. Probably at least 20 tissues a session, 12,640 over 7 years. At 200 in a box, that's 63 boxes. About the cost of one session. Though maybe they have a discount rate for T's. Someone should open a business, discount tissues boxes for T's printed with positive affirmations... Cecilia
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