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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by OzLand on July 27, 2007, at 22:13:13
I had therapy today, and it was fairly benign as there are things in my life now that seem more like a life and death issue, and my T is worried I know, thinking I might commit suicide. I am at a very low point and have had someone important to what is going on in my life now tell me that I need to quit my antidepressant medication. I think it is a bad idea, but I think too that this person knows what he is talking about. I emailed my therapist, but he likely won't see my email until tomorrow or maybe not until Monday.
I just can't stop crying as I feel my life is ending anyway. Some people know what I mean, and I am sorry but I can't post here on the board about it. Sorry. I am in so much pain I can barely stand it anymore.
Posted by Honore on July 27, 2007, at 23:25:10
In reply to From bad to worse, posted by OzLand on July 27, 2007, at 22:13:13
Ozland, I'm so sorry to hear that you're in so much pain.
I hope your T will see your email. Is there any way to call and leave him a message, or even have him paged? I know my T always checks his machine over the weekend, so even if it's tomorrow, that's better than Monday.
I don't know why someone would advise you to stop your AD, but that makes no sense to me. Even if he often is right about things-- I don't understand. You need to go with your beliefs and sense of things-- not with someone else's even if he's important and has often been right.
Try to hold on. I'm sorry I can't do anything concrete to make things better. But I want you to know that I'm thinking about you and hoping that tomorrow will be a better day, somehow.
Honore
Posted by OzLand on July 28, 2007, at 0:19:20
In reply to Re: From bad to worse » OzLand, posted by Honore on July 27, 2007, at 23:25:10
I think my T/pdoc would say no, but I am not sure as he knows what is going on in my life and would have to weigh out what he thought would happen to me if I did stop my Parnate. It makes sense to me, and I am sure it will make sense to my doctor too; it is just taking a big risk but maybe a necessary one.
Posted by Deneb on July 28, 2007, at 1:21:44
In reply to From bad to worse, posted by OzLand on July 27, 2007, at 22:13:13
I'm sorry you feel so sad right now. Is there anything I can do to help?
Deneb*
Posted by Honore on July 28, 2007, at 1:28:00
In reply to Re: From bad to worse » Honore, posted by OzLand on July 28, 2007, at 0:19:20
No one can make that call except you, because you truly are the one who knows what you're going through, and how to make sense of the conflicting pressures. Although I don't understand, I'm sure there must be compelling reasons this person has presented. Whatever the reasons that weigh so heavily, please take time to think it through, because it is a big risk, since the parnate has been helping.
I would hope you had time to talk to your T or pdoc, and at least get another view of the situation, before you take that step. And if you do, I hope you go slowly, rather than stop all at once; it can be rough going off parnate cold turkey, as I know from experience. Just to be more protective, it would be safer to go down gradually.
Take care tonight,
Honore
Posted by Squiggles on July 28, 2007, at 9:20:27
In reply to From bad to worse, posted by OzLand on July 27, 2007, at 22:13:13
> I had therapy today, and it was fairly benign as there are things in my life now that seem more like a life and death issue, and my T is worried I know, thinking I might commit suicide. I am at a very low point and have had someone important to what is going on in my life now tell me that I need to quit my antidepressant medication. I think it is a bad idea, but I think too that this person knows what he is talking about. I emailed my therapist, but he likely won't see my email until tomorrow or maybe not until Monday.
>
> I just can't stop crying as I feel my life is ending anyway. Some people know what I mean, and I am sorry but I can't post here on the board about it. Sorry. I am in so much pain I can barely stand it anymore.Do you have doctor? Does the doctor know you have depression? Has the doctor let you get off of your depression even when suicidal?
Q.E.D. I will not say anything offensive though
it is on the tip of my tongue. Use your head!Squiggles
Posted by Phillipa on July 28, 2007, at 11:57:26
In reply to From bad to worse, posted by OzLand on July 27, 2007, at 22:13:13
Why would you quit parnate if it's working again? I don't understand as it makes no sense to me. Love Phillipa
Posted by LlurpsieNoodle on July 28, 2007, at 15:14:39
In reply to Re: From bad to worse » OzLand, posted by Phillipa on July 28, 2007, at 11:57:26
withdrawal is often enough to send delicate minds into suicidal states, and I don't want anything bad to happen to you. Best to keep the status quo, especially if life is changing so fast, or is so horrible. If anything, perhaps ADDING something would be better than taking away your anti-depressant. I would DEFINIteLY talk to your T about this. Oftentimes depression saps us of our ability to see both sides of an issue clearly. You need someone to help you weigh the pros and cons.
take care of you, okay?
Remember, self-soothing is not for wimps. It's part of our instincts. Find something soothing. just a little something everyday. There is something beautiful out there. If you look for it, you will find it. Just one little beautiful thing. Could be a dandilion defying the sidewalk, I dunno
best to you,
-Ll
Posted by OzLand on July 28, 2007, at 15:52:45
In reply to Re: From bad to worse » Phillipa, posted by LlurpsieNoodle on July 28, 2007, at 15:14:39
I have not heard from my therapist who is also my doctor. For anyone who does not know he is an M.D. psychoanalyst and prescribes my meds as well as does the therapy--handy!
I am better today and have not cut back my meds. I have concerns about doing so myself.
I feel like I am on an emotional roller coaster right now--up one day and down the next depending on what happens with the work thing. So, I am sorry about saying stuff though I mean it at the time.
Thanks for concern, and don't worry about offending me; worry about getting zapped by Dr. Bob. I can't do anything about that.
Posted by Phillipa on July 28, 2007, at 20:27:34
In reply to Re: From bad to worse » Phillipa, posted by LlurpsieNoodle on July 28, 2007, at 15:14:39
Lurpsie did you mean that message to me as I'm not withdrawing at the moment anyway. Love Phillipa
Posted by OzLand on July 28, 2007, at 20:48:49
In reply to Re: From bad to worse » Phillipa, posted by LlurpsieNoodle on July 28, 2007, at 15:14:39
For what it is worth, my doctor says to do as I was told and go off the Parnate for now. I took 30 mg. today and will take 20 mg. tomorrow and see how I am. If okay, I will take 10 mg. on Monday, and then none on Tuesday. I am not sure this will work, but I am going to give it a try. In about two weeks, I should be able to go back on the meds again. So, I think I will be okay. I had to be off meds for two weeks when I switched from Desipramine to Parnate, and so now I think I can be okay. Most of my up and down mood right now is related to why I have been told to stop the Parnate. I don't even know how depresssed I am anymore. I think I was not feeling that depressed before the work thing came up.
Posted by LlurpsieNoodle on July 28, 2007, at 20:53:11
In reply to Re: From bad to worse » LlurpsieNoodle, posted by Phillipa on July 28, 2007, at 20:27:34
> Lurpsie did you mean that message to me as I'm not withdrawing at the moment anyway. Love Phillipa
sorry phillipa, I ALWAYS click that button automatically. my mistake.
-Ll
p.s. I'm glad you're not withdrawing from anything at the moment. That's nice to hear. (umm, what about the chocolates...?)
Posted by Phillipa on July 28, 2007, at 21:43:49
In reply to Re: From bad to worse » Phillipa, posted by LlurpsieNoodle on July 28, 2007, at 20:53:11
Lurpsie I have so much stomach blubber I know it would have to go away somewhat with the withdrawal of lindt truffles. You know I spend $32 a week on them. If I could taste wouldn't need that smooth texture in my mouth. I've researched till blue in the face well maybe not literally and can find no reason no nasal problems. Any ideas? Love Phillipa
Posted by muffled on July 28, 2007, at 22:16:49
In reply to Re: From bad to worse » LlurpsieNoodle, posted by OzLand on July 28, 2007, at 20:48:49
Oz, hope things improve for you.
Depression is sneaky....
Take care,
Muffled
Posted by OzLand on July 28, 2007, at 23:20:18
In reply to Re: From bad to worse » OzLand, posted by muffled on July 28, 2007, at 22:16:49
Posted by OzLand on July 29, 2007, at 18:37:22
In reply to Re: Thanks muffled (nm), posted by OzLand on July 28, 2007, at 23:20:18
My therapist sent me an email, and it sent me right over the edge again. I did not expect him to respond to my last email as I only said if was sorry I misunderstood what he meant, and I said I wouldn't bother him anymore, meaning emails.
So he writes back very briefly that:
"I prefer to know the process of these events so I can be responsive when we meet, especially as it is sometimes difficult as yet for you to express yourself when we are together."
I thought I was expressing myself, and so that just sent me into tears, and then I was angry. I am not the one who keeps distrupting our schedule. I told him it is hard to go from Friday to Wednesday with some stuff that is happening right now. Besides he told me before to keep him informed. Besides, he is gone a lot of Fridays, and so what does he expect. Very disruptive. I told him I don't like having Fridays as a day we meet. Don't like Wednesday either.
Actually when I think about it, I was sort of okay with just Wednesday as at least I know we will meet Wednesdays. Maybe I should just propose once per week. Maybe I should just propose Fridays as the day we meet. That way we can go for two or three weeks without meeting at all. Hell why meet at all. Yes I know I am angry. My weekend was going pretty good, and he had to have his fricking say.
Oz
Posted by OzLand on August 3, 2007, at 23:11:16
In reply to Re: Therapist, posted by OzLand on July 29, 2007, at 18:37:22
My therapist is trying to "get inside me" more and more so to speak, and I am really uncomfortable. And know it is not in my best interests to only tell him things that I want to tell him and keep from him things I don't want him to know about. But having someone know you better than you know yourself is a mixed bag. Scary as what might he say to surprise me about myself. Oh crap; he has already done that I say to myself.
So, we talked about it today and how it felt intrusive for him to want to watch my favorite Bergman films. He said he would not do it if I didn't want him to, and I heard myself say, "No, go ahead." I told him how I think it is good he gets to know me better than I know myself as how else can he help me to change. But it is scary, and my tendency is to keep him at arms length and to say to myself I can take care of myself just fine. Don't need him.
It is probably true I don't "need" him and his help; I could get by; but I "want" his help now, and so I will try to figuratively "disrobe." Now I have scared myself. I will have to remember that one. Just wait until I get back to the csa, I say to myself. We had just started when the other stuff came up from work. I will try going down that road again, and I won't be so positive I know. Perspective I keep telling myself.
This is why I journal every day; well partly so why. I started to journal in January when I started to consider ECT. So, I have continued with it, and it is very interesting to see the shifts. I am also thinking about writing about my experiences at Menningers as my analyst there wanted me to do. He gave me access to all my records, and I have them all including the nursing notes and summaries from previous treatments. I wish I had done it when my analyst was still alive, but I think he will know somehow that this is the time to do it not back then when I thought I had licked my problems. He knew I had not, and I am thinking now that part of the reason he wanted me to do write about my treatment was to see I was not done yet. Of course he wanted me to publish it too. I have never published anything like that, only academic research. Might be interesting to try.
Oz
Posted by Phillipa on August 3, 2007, at 23:40:30
In reply to Re: Therapist ***ttriggers***, posted by OzLand on August 3, 2007, at 23:11:16
Sorry have to disagree on one point no one knows you better than yourself as you are you and the one who has experienced their life and has their own memories. Makes me wonder about the old tales of Therapists triggering things that never happened. About 20 years ago I think. They can guide you and help you discover things you may have forgotten. Phillipa
Posted by OzLand on August 3, 2007, at 23:55:00
In reply to Re: Therapist ***ttriggers*** » OzLand, posted by Phillipa on August 3, 2007, at 23:40:30
I am not talking about remembering things that may not have happened. I remember the abuse stuff and always have; at one time; parts of me were split off and parts did not realize about the other parts and what was I saying and doing. I have records to tell me what I said and did back then. But in terms of csa, I remember what I remember. That is not what I am referring to.
Therapists know more about patients in terms of, for example, how someone in the present reacts to situtions as a result of things that happened in the past. Or, a therapist can see defenses and ways in which a person gets in the way of himself or herself when trying to change. Or, for example, my therapist made the link about how I interpreted his comments as trying to tell me how to live my life when he certainly did not intend what he said to mean that. He linked this to my feeling as if he was inserting himself in me and the link then to csa when several different men did just that and also forced me to live my life according to their wishes. I never made that link before, and it has made a big difference. Now whenever I think someone in authority is trying to tell me how to live my life, or when it seems my husband is doing this, I take a step back now and think about how this is different from then. So, of course I want to work with someone who "knows" me better than I know myself. If I could make these connections,etc. I would not need therapy and would not be depressed.
Oz
Posted by Honore on August 4, 2007, at 11:04:53
In reply to Re: Therapist ***ttriggers***, posted by OzLand on August 3, 2007, at 23:11:16
I never experienced csa and it must be a very different experience from other types of abuse and neglect-- my parents were much more coldly indifferent. So I don't know how much it changes how a T works with a patient.
That's why I'm hesitant to say that I would find it a bit intrusive if a T asked what my favorite Bergman movies were and then said he planned to watch them-- unless I had especially asked him to see one. (My T wouldn't do it-- anyway.) But I would find it disturbing, and perhaps a bit invasive-- unless I were able to set the boundaries and know why he wanted to see them. To "insert" himself or "get inside me" would definitely feel like an unwanted intrusion-- but is that a good thing?
I wouldn't want to think of revealing things as disrobing-- but maybe I have a lot of hangups about boundaries--not having strong ones, and maybe creating overly strong ones in other ways. So maybe my reactions aren't relevant-- it's more how you feel it works with you. I'd rather symbolize T as investigating or exploring things, clarifying or reexperiencing them-- maybe I prefer the dissection or scientific types of images to the sexual ones-- if you think of Freud's psychodynamic images--or more abstract interpersonal ones.
I worry about you, though, Ozland. Not in a bad way-- I'm concerned and want things to go well. I worry that your T is going too fast, or pushing too hard-- and that that's an experience you're all too familiar with. Maybe it's good, he's experienced and knows the way people respond when it's too much. But T's are human, they make a lot of mistakes, and misjudgments, just like all people.
I'm more comfortable when I feel somewhat in control of the boundaries and limits-- I guess it's a question of where the boundaries need to be, and where they need to be relaxed and made less restrictive.
It's great that you're keeping a journal. I'd love to read a book about your experiences at Menninger's-- especially since it would be written from more complex point of view and different sensibility from the other ex-patients' books I've read, many of which are instructive, but not as insightful about the other side of the relationship, or the world of psychoanalysis/ psychotherapy.
Honore
Posted by OzLand on August 4, 2007, at 12:53:57
In reply to Re: Therapist ***ttriggers*** » OzLand, posted by Honore on August 4, 2007, at 11:04:53
Honore, thanks so much for your response. I can see how one might assume my therapist is moving too fast. I know when he firt used the term "inserting himself in me," I went to the restroom and almost pucked. I could see,though, how easily I could get back into an eating disorder. So, I didn't. I think he sees I have strengths that I don't feel I have at times.
Also, my boundaries used to be practically non-existent until I went to treatment at Menninger's. 2.75 years inpatient and then 8 more years of outpatient treatment. My boundaries are fairly good now; I used to be a cutter in all sorts of area and did other stuff too. I regressed there, had so much of me split off into parts that I had no idea who I was. I was dx as BPD as well as MDD and DD at the time and later concluded that the PD (BPD) was resolved but I still had avoidant traits. I was no longer depressed, and as my therapist understood, I had buried the sexual, physical, and mental abuse so deep (not just into another compartment, but into a sealed box) that I was able to function through grad school, internship, and postdoc without too much trouble. And even went off to start working in the work world without a hitch.
So, is he moving too fast. For me probably not even though we are new working together. He is impressed that I can speak up and say something about how he is impacting on me. He wants me to get angry with him when I am angry. He knows my last therapist/pdoc did not handle my anger very well and told me I should find someone else if we could not resolve the anger. So, I drove the anger underground, got more depressed, and did the ECT for him. This is what my therapist now says about why he thinks I did ECT.
No, he's not moving too fast; my tendency is to start blabbing about nonimportant things, though even there he finds something to say what is says about me. Like when I started talking about someone I saw for a competency evaluation and my frustrations with the jail for not getting him his medications. He said that what I said was "sweet." I thought that was a weird thing to say, but he explained he meant it in terms of it showed I cared about the people I see even though some of them have done unspeakable acts like murder of infants or sexual abuse of children, etc. I find it interesting as I observe myself from a distance that I can be empathetic with someone who has done horrible things to another person. What I see, though, is a person who also has good points, etc. And, that person is not in my private life, and so I can separate "the deed from the doer" so to speak. That's a very Adlerina concept. I better be careful (my husband is Adlerian) and says my Freudian concepts are obsolete--I was trained in a psychoanalyically informed approach that is more object relations ala drive theory plus ego psychology. My therapist is trained in object relations ala self-psychology but is obviously versed in classical analysis and in other psyhchoanalytically informed theories.
I am okay with him being the way he is. I appreciate your concern, though, and I will certainly keep in mind what you say as it is my tendency to want to rush things along. Actually when I first started seeing him I thought we coule wrap things up in a year or less, and he let me know that it would be at least two years and maybe more. AGH! And that is only because I have already had good therapy and have already developed insights on my own. A big thing for him and my current depresson is for me to see there is a link between my depression and emotional upheaveal now and my past experiences. That's because I would like to avoid dealing with that crap from the past. It's the past, done, over with, etc. and of course I know that is crap, and he knows I know. He isn't going to let me get away with it.
Yes I find it very uncomfortable to have him "know" me in a way I don't know myself. That does mean getting inside a person and experiencing what the person experiences and know how that feels so that you can step back and know how to help. One has to be willing to experience or be in that person's skin, I think, in order to really have an understanding of what it must be like for that person day in and day out and what it was like for that person as a child to experience things in a certain way--the necessary but not sufficient condition of therapy.
I really appreciate your comments. They got me to thinking as this weekend has been horrible with my male cat's creatin level still rising and some of the women from my UU congregation getting literally hostile toward me because they don't see change as good. My emotional upheaval now has more to do with current events in my life and not so much therapy except to the extent that my schedule is so disprupted with him going off all the time on Fridays to do whatever he does--I think consultations or4 conferences,etc. I haven't asked as I don't have a need to know.
OzLand
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