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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Maria01 on December 8, 2007, at 11:57:40
I'm so tired of studying for finals; no wonder the youger students do well in school...they have the stamina for all this stuff. Onward:
I know on a rational level that my
T is genuinely caring. I don't think she'd be in the profession if she didn't have the capacity to care about others. She does a lot of work on behalf of domestic abuse, and also provides services for veterans of the Iraq war. Here is what I'm having trouble with: How can she care about me, beyond the obligatory therapeutic caring? My life is so differennt from hers. She's been married forever to a professor at one of the colleges here in the Bay Area, she has a daughter(read my prior post..angst) and most likely a coupla grandkids.Me, well, I'm single(got divorced a long time ago when I realized that marriage is suffocating), and I don't have kids because, well, I'm just not a kid person and it didn't seem fair for me to have them if I'm not a kid person. Kids drive me crazy. She is hopelessly optimisitc, and I'm more pragmatic. In other words, two different planets altogether. In the big picture, it's no big deal...but since she is psychodynamic, the relationship and the capacity to care on a genuine level is paramount. I like the psychodynamic approach..it's more real and relatable.
Part of me wants to tell her if she's caring about me because her role dictates that she care, then not to bother(it reminds me of the classmates who would say to me "I'm only being nice to you because the teacher said so. Otherwise, I don't like you and never will"), because I don't need someone caring out of obligation or pity, kthanks.
For example, how can someone like her who has a kid genuinely relate to someone like me who doesn't like kids or want them? How can she, who's been married to the same guy since the dawn of time relate to me, who is not a big believer in marriage? The list goes on, but you get the gist. Monday's hour will be loaded...I've got the daughter thingy to deal with, and I need to find out where she stands. Personally, I think she just cares because her role dictates it. Call me cynical, but that's the way I see it.
Posted by lovelorn on December 8, 2007, at 13:28:10
In reply to Some random thoughts for a Saturday...., posted by Maria01 on December 8, 2007, at 11:57:40
Maybe you are wondering why she isn't more like you? Or why you aren't more like her?
You first say you believe she is genuinely a caring person, but then you end that you think she just cares because it her obligation and role to do so. Which one is true and what difference does make?
Good therapists "care" if they are helping you, good therapists "care" if you are making progress, good therapists "care" about making you feel safe to talk about your issues, good therapists "care" about giving you tools to help you cope and insights and explanations to help you understand. It is part of their job obligation and probably does come from a genuine interest to want to help people.
I know my therapist cares about all those things even though she doesn't say so - I can just tell by our interaction and that is what it is - a professional, therapeutic interaction. I went to her because it is her job to provide those type of "carings". Maybe ask yourself what kind of more "caring" you are expecting and wanting from her.
As for the daughter thing, well it would be curious to know why that matters to you and I am sure you T will ask and be curious too.
Posted by Maria01 on December 8, 2007, at 13:39:16
In reply to Re: Some random thoughts for a Saturday.... » Maria01, posted by lovelorn on December 8, 2007, at 13:28:10
It does make a difference to me whether or not the caring is genuine. I have had a lifetime of people caring about me out of pity or obligation, and is therefore not genuine. When someone comes from an ingenuine place with respect to anything, there is definitely a sense of "don't humor me" on my part.
The daughter-having-attended the same school matter is important; read my prior post. I do not want anyone to recall me from my high school years for many reasons, none of which I will discuss in a public forum such as the internet.
Even though my therapist may be a caring person in general, she still has the capacity(like all of us) to just go through the motions. One does not exclude the other. Do I wish I were more like her? No. Marriage and children are life choices that do not work for me. Do I wish she were more like me? Hell. to. the. no. I would not wish my life on anyone. Having Asperger's is a living hell in a world where sociability is a must.
I'm glad you have found a therapist that you feel comfortable with.
Posted by lovelorn on December 8, 2007, at 14:01:34
In reply to Re: Some random thoughts for a Saturday...., posted by Maria01 on December 8, 2007, at 13:39:16
>It does make a difference to me whether or not the caring is genuine.
And what makes it genuine for you, I wonder. Just keep in mind that it is part of their obligation, it's the profession they chose. You cannot eliminate that completely from what they do any more than you can eliminate the different obligations of any profession or job. The point is does she care about helping you make yourself better.
Posted by Dinah on December 8, 2007, at 14:25:48
In reply to Some random thoughts for a Saturday...., posted by Maria01 on December 8, 2007, at 11:57:40
What my therapist says is that his role involves wanting the best for me, and helping me to achieve it. But genuine caring can't be purchased with his services. He also says that if he doesn't genuinely care for a client, he doesn't think they would continue seeing him for long.
He probably wouldn't have chosen me for a friend in the real world, but that doesn't mean that having gotten to know me, his feelings for me aren't real in this moment. (He doesn't say anything so rude of course. But I know it's true.)
I don't think it has a lot to do with those sort of similarities or differences. I have a husband and child, but I can't see that there would be any problem with my caring about someone who chooses to remain single and childless. I care about someone based on who they are, not if they share my lifestyle or my views.
Posted by lovelorn on December 8, 2007, at 14:49:21
In reply to Re: Some random thoughts for a Saturday.... » Maria01, posted by Dinah on December 8, 2007, at 14:25:48
>But genuine caring can't be purchased with his services. He also says that if he doesn't genuinely care for a client, he doesn't think they would continue seeing him for long.
That's a good point Dinah. I don't think genuine caring can be purchased with the services either. I realize in my words about obligations it may sound like that. It has to be evident and come from the person themselves in what they are doing. Even if a T can't make your whole life beter from end to end, what's important is they do genuinely care when you are in that room and working on what your issues are. There are different degrees and expressions of caring, whether from T's or the average joe on the street.
It's interesting though he says that if "he" didn't care, then the client would probably not keeping coming back. He's putting the onus on the client. The client is getting something for themselves and is why they keep coming back. It may be his caring attitude, it may be something else. I keep going back to my T not because I feel a huge "caring" per se, rather there is "enough caring" there in order for me to continue to keep on working on my issues. If there weren't, then yes I would probably look elsewhere. I make no mistake about it, it's my issues that need to be dealt with. I am visiting a professional to do that. That professional provides a caring enough and knowledgeable enough environment to do that. That is both part of her obligation and evidently and thanfully part of her natural character as a person who has chosen to provide therapy as a living.
Posted by Dinah on December 8, 2007, at 15:49:25
In reply to Re: Some random thoughts for a Saturday.... » Dinah, posted by lovelorn on December 8, 2007, at 14:49:21
I don't think he meant it like that. I know that he certainly has clients who utilize his professional services, and to whom he provides professional services in a caring and professional manner. He was speaking to me about therapeutic relationships similar to ours.
I have to say I wouldn't have continued to see him if there was "enough caring" for me to continue to work on my issues. If he were only a professional who provided a caring enough and knowledgeable enough environment. That sort of relationship would have been far more time limited and sad to say would not have brought about much change in me. My issues, I'm sure. Change is glacial with me, and relies heavily on the relationship itself.
It's a valid way to see therapy, and there may have been times that I viewed therapy that way. So if it's what you need, I'm very glad you found it.
(Have you read Yalom? Our relationship is more like that type of therapeutic relationship.)
Posted by Dinah on December 8, 2007, at 15:52:53
In reply to Some random thoughts for a Saturday...., posted by Maria01 on December 8, 2007, at 11:57:40
Just a passing thought, but do you think your feelings about finding out about her daughter might be influencing your thoughts?
Posted by lovelorn on December 8, 2007, at 17:21:41
In reply to Re: Some random thoughts for a Saturday.... » lovelorn, posted by Dinah on December 8, 2007, at 15:49:25
>...and relies heavily on the relationship itself.
I take your point. Based on what I read on the boards here, many share the same reliance. I guess it does depend on the issues you are working on.
>(Have you read Yalom? Our relationship is more like that type of therapeutic relationship.)
I've not read Yalom. I may do a web search to read more about it.
Posted by Sigismund on December 8, 2007, at 17:58:07
In reply to Some random thoughts for a Saturday...., posted by Maria01 on December 8, 2007, at 11:57:40
There was the odd time I reduced my T (Klein, Mahler, Winnicott) to tears, even reducing her to pointing this out to me.
Which should have told me.
But I never really got beyond it, to what you are seeking.
And that, I think, was quite intentional on her part, that I should not get there.
She was orthodox that way.
Otherwise I would have had to move in with her.
I saw her everyday as it was.
Posted by Sigismund on December 8, 2007, at 18:18:07
In reply to Some random thoughts for a Saturday...., posted by Maria01 on December 8, 2007, at 11:57:40
>All that being said, for some reason, the fact that her daughter is my age unsettles me. It really does; I'm surprised at myself.
There are all sorts of reasons to go to a T.
You might want to work on your issues, you might want to take yourself apart and put yourself back together (these people are bound to be disappointed) or you might go for love (really disappointed, this lot).My first psych had a son my age, but what was much worse, at my school.
Which meant he chose to send his son there.
I dealt with this by saying I could cheerfully machine gun the entire staff.
Didn't spend so long with him.
Posted by Maria01 on December 8, 2007, at 18:47:33
In reply to Re: Some random thoughts for a Saturday.... » Maria01, posted by Dinah on December 8, 2007, at 15:52:53
Not so much. Finding out about her daughter definitely didn't help matters, but I had been feeling ambivalent about the whole therapy thing for a while, and just have finally formuated the thoughts surrounding what I'm feeling. =)
Posted by Maria01 on December 8, 2007, at 18:49:11
In reply to Re: Some random thoughts for a Saturday.... » Maria01, posted by Sigismund on December 8, 2007, at 17:58:07
I take it she was an Object Relations therapist? the names Winnicott, Klien, et al rang a bell for me.
Posted by Sigismund on December 8, 2007, at 19:48:07
In reply to Re: Some random thoughts for a Saturday.... » Sigismund, posted by Maria01 on December 8, 2007, at 18:49:11
Yes, there were books about (the interestingly named) Object Relations on her shelf.
If you want to give me a quick lesson in projective identification, I'm all ears.
Posted by Maria01 on December 8, 2007, at 20:39:58
In reply to Re: Some random thoughts for a Saturday.... » Maria01, posted by Sigismund on December 8, 2007, at 19:48:07
????? I have no idea at all what you mean by "projective identification". I recognized those names only because I had taken a psych course in which Winnicott, Klein, et al were mentioned as part of a learning module on comtemporary analysts. Nothing else was intended.
Posted by estrellita on December 8, 2007, at 22:36:58
In reply to Some random thoughts for a Saturday...., posted by Maria01 on December 8, 2007, at 11:57:40
(fyi, I haven't read any of the follow-up posts.)
It sounds like you've been making a lot of comparisons in your mind - you and your therapist, you and your therapist's daughter, etc. I think we all do that to some extent, but why? Maybe you could make that a point of discussion in future sessions - not so much the comparisons themselves as why you feel driven to make them, and how doing that has been affecting your life. (I have definitely been doing this with my new therapist - he's younger than me, seems to have his ish together much more than I do, graduated from a better university than I did, etc. - but I have to remember that thinking about those things isn't going to get me anywhere. And I definitely don't know much about him, so he may have huge problems and insecurities of his own - it says MUCH more about me than him that I imagine him to be perfectly happy and successful.)
Also, what if you think about the "caring" aspect from her point of view? I remember saying things like this to my previous therapist - e.g., "you only say you care about me because I'm paying you to say it," blah blah. And there is some truth to that. But what if I was the therapist, and had a client I truly cared about? How would I feel if, when I told them that, they refused to hear it and instead told me I only care because my role dictates it? It may be true that part of the role of a therapist is to care about us, and it may also be true that some therapists come to care about some clients in a more personal way as well. So even though it sometimes feels easy to be cynical about the "care" a therapist professes to feel for us, maybe sometimes we should give them some slack and believe that it's true. If it doesn't feel like something that's genuinely true, bring that up with her.
Finally, are there other people in your life that you genuinely like, respect, or otherwise feel positively about who are different from you in significant ways? Why is it so hard to believe that someone so different from you in certain ways could really care about you? And again, it goes both ways - I'm sure there are people in your life that YOU care about but who are very different from you in certain ways. I know what you mean about comparing yourself to people who are married, have kids, etc. - but we all know that marriage or kids are NOT a means to happiness - it's possible that married and/or children-ed people are sometimes jealous of OUR lives. We have independence, flexibility, our own living spaces, spontaneity, and room for lots of other things in our lives that those who are coupled and kid-ed don't necessarily have.
I know none of this is easy, and for me the therapeutic relationship makes issues like this even harder to deal with sometimes. I saw a lot of my own struggles in what you wrote, so my post is partly a response to what you said, and partly a response to my own worries about similar things. I hope it helps you. Above all, I would suggest being as honest with your therapist as you possibly can. This can be so hard to do, but personally I find it the best way to build trust, allay fears/anxieties (there's less of a subtext running through my mind during sessions), and confirm to myself that this particular therapist is truly one I want to be working with.
> I'm so tired of studying for finals; no wonder the youger students do well in school...they have the stamina for all this stuff. Onward:
>
> I know on a rational level that my
> T is genuinely caring. I don't think she'd be in the profession if she didn't have the capacity to care about others. She does a lot of work on behalf of domestic abuse, and also provides services for veterans of the Iraq war. Here is what I'm having trouble with: How can she care about me, beyond the obligatory therapeutic caring? My life is so differennt from hers. She's been married forever to a professor at one of the colleges here in the Bay Area, she has a daughter(read my prior post..angst) and most likely a coupla grandkids.
>
> Me, well, I'm single(got divorced a long time ago when I realized that marriage is suffocating), and I don't have kids because, well, I'm just not a kid person and it didn't seem fair for me to have them if I'm not a kid person. Kids drive me crazy. She is hopelessly optimisitc, and I'm more pragmatic. In other words, two different planets altogether. In the big picture, it's no big deal...but since she is psychodynamic, the relationship and the capacity to care on a genuine level is paramount. I like the psychodynamic approach..it's more real and relatable.
>
> Part of me wants to tell her if she's caring about me because her role dictates that she care, then not to bother(it reminds me of the classmates who would say to me "I'm only being nice to you because the teacher said so. Otherwise, I don't like you and never will"), because I don't need someone caring out of obligation or pity, kthanks.
>
> For example, how can someone like her who has a kid genuinely relate to someone like me who doesn't like kids or want them? How can she, who's been married to the same guy since the dawn of time relate to me, who is not a big believer in marriage? The list goes on, but you get the gist. Monday's hour will be loaded...I've got the daughter thingy to deal with, and I need to find out where she stands. Personally, I think she just cares because her role dictates it. Call me cynical, but that's the way I see it.
Posted by Maria01 on December 8, 2007, at 23:26:32
In reply to Re: Some random thoughts for a Saturday...., posted by estrellita on December 8, 2007, at 22:36:58
Hi Estrellita
I love that name("Little Star" en espanol)thank you for your kind reply. It's funny: my head knows what's up in terms of her caring, but my heart is just really mixed up. I would like to think that the differences that she and I have are not a big deal, but I have been vilified by T's for not wanting kids/marriage, so I'm a little skittish.
Working with my present T is the hardest thing I've ever done on so many levels. I will take your advice and begin addressing these feelings with her. You are right in that it will bypass a lot of angst in the future. It sounds like you are with a good T, too. =)
I am so glad you replied. Thank you so much for your kindness!
This is the end of the thread.
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