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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by JoniS on January 24, 2008, at 9:50:59
I'm seeing love in therapy as such a normal healing thing. And, I'm even believing love from therapist is very real, very healing, and very human (with all it's human faults). When we have a well- trained, very ethical, very open therapist, we will be in the best position for healing.
Susan Baur:
"many forms of intimacy weave their way through the intimate hour, and not everyone will have the same feelings or use the same words when it somes to describing them. The most problematic are feelings akin to romantic love. At their worst they presage the end of therapy and a precipitious flight into a complicated relationship that for many reasons is not likely to bring either party contentment. At their best, however, feelings of love between doctor and patient represent a special kind of impossible love -- a pure intimacy-- with multiple attractions and prohibiitions and with passionate attentiveness on both sides. The doctor-patient relationship is not supposed to be an ongoing adventure the way a marriage or a love affair can be. It is not supposed to be the relationship within which doctor and patient work out the most intimate knowledge of themselves and of another person in the course of a lifetime, although certainly therpy has occupied this most central and importantplace even when neither person has so much as touched the other's hand. But in the normal course of events, the affectionate bond that develops between doctor and patient represents an initiation, a turning point on the path to a more satisfying life that, onece negotiated, is left behind. Each patient comes in needing a different initiation, and each has a different way of leaving old fears and habitual constrictions. As this happens, a therapist is asked to love and support these people in many ways before finally doing "the hangman's work". For most therapists, one uncharted journey or another proves to be dangerous. I have discovered that almost every therapist has a love story. The vast majority of these attractions are not played, but that doesn't mean that the relationships don't bring great joy and great heartbreak."CS Lewis: "Hell is the only place outside heaven where we can be safe from the dangers of love."
Fascinating.
Posted by DAisym on January 24, 2008, at 13:52:00
In reply to The Intimate Hour ----- (long), posted by JoniS on January 24, 2008, at 9:50:59
I've read this book but I don't quite get what she means by "hangman's work." Is this forcing the ending? Or is this always being the one who has to move beyond the good feelings of love and look at the issues themselves?
The most fascinating part for me is the transference of outside problems and issues onto the therapy itself. Not just the feelings for the therapist, but the whole thing - getting there on time, making time for it in the first place - being honest with yourself - being brave and speaking your truth - value for our money - self-advocacy...and on and on. Therapy represents a place to "do" and to "discuss" so many mundane things that we do or don't do well every day.
But all that said, I agree that if you can get past the hurt of unrequited love, the relationship itself can be very healing.
Posted by Happyflower on January 24, 2008, at 15:57:06
In reply to Re: The Intimate Hour ----- (long), posted by DAisym on January 24, 2008, at 13:52:00
> I've read this book but I don't quite get what she means by "hangman's work." Is this forcing the ending? Or is this always being the one who has to move beyond the good feelings of love and look at the issues themselves?
I haven't read the book, but to me maybe it means that after you establish that great relationship where it has done so much good, you have end the relationship and allow the client to move on, even if you as T worked so hard to do it, and have good feelings for that person too.
My T says that he is always working hard to be unemployed. He is working to get me to not need his help anymore, so he is fired.
> The most fascinating part for me is the transference of outside problems and issues onto the therapy itself. Not just the feelings for the therapist, but the whole thing - getting there on time, making time for it in the first place - being honest with yourself - being brave and speaking your truth - value for our money - self-advocacy...and on and on. Therapy represents a place to "do" and to "discuss" so many mundane things that we do or don't do well every day.
>
> But all that said, I agree that if you can get past the hurt of unrequited love, the relationship itself can be very healing.
Posted by JoniS on January 24, 2008, at 18:51:27
In reply to Re: The Intimate Hour ----- (long), posted by DAisym on January 24, 2008, at 13:52:00
I guess I imagined the hangman's work is bringing the patient to a final ending. An ending that is imminent, and because of the close relationship, not something we look forward to. Also because there is no room for any other kind of relationship in the future - not friends, not lovers, not business related contacts, the ending is final. (unless of course we need to do new T work) Both patient and T know the end is comeing, and there is a sort of "dread"
that's my stab at it.
ya know, about that "transference" stuff. It just seems to me like that is all our "stuff" from past experiences and relationships, etc, which we take with us into any relationship. If I break up with one guy and start to see another, I take my "stuff" with me. So, I guess I don't see why it sometimes seem like therapy/ists discount some feelings as "transference" - as if our particular feelings for them are not "real".
Anyway, it's all fascinating to me. I found that book so helpful because it let believe that therapists really do, for the most part, care very much for their patients. And it's even hard for them to say goodbye. The bothersome thing I got from the book, just a little bothersome, is that I now believe that the best growth situation is when the T also believes it's the relationship that is the vehicle for growth and change. I don't think my T has that same philosophy. I would love to go deeper, longer, not just a session every blue moon on how I feel about him, but also more about how he feels about his clients, and his life. My T is off his pedestal that I put him on and now practically on the same ground as me.
Posted by Daisym on January 24, 2008, at 22:39:29
In reply to Re: The Intimate Hour ----- (long) » DAisym, posted by JoniS on January 24, 2008, at 18:51:27
I think you are probably both right about the hangman referring to the ending.
You know Joni, I don't necessarily think labeling something as transference means that they are discounting it. (Actually, I don't think using the term "transference" is helpful for patients, I don't know why therapists feel the need to do that.) I guess it is an attempt to help us understand the process intellectually. I know as a married woman interacting with a married man, I can't imagine any other situation in which these feelings would ever arise and be allowed, let alone talked about. But just because these feelings have a name doesn't make them less real. And I think the majority of therapist in this day and age know that. Perhaps putting them in the category of transference is supposed to make it clear that we explore these feelings instead of acting upon them.
And I totally agreed with what you wrote about the relationship being the vehicle for change. In the safety of the relationship we can dare to think in different ways about ourselves and we can borrow needed strength or courage to do something the perhaps is too hard alone. From what you've written about your therapist, I think he sounds like a relationship-based therapy kind of guy. But I think many therapist don't explore the relationship unless the patient brings it up - they wait, not wanting to presume perhaps. I'm not sure.
And taking him off the pedestal isn't necessarily a bad thing. It is hard to have a close, real relationship with someone who towers above you.
Posted by JoniS on January 25, 2008, at 7:11:03
In reply to Re: The Intimate Hour ----- (long), posted by Daisym on January 24, 2008, at 22:39:29
Daisy
Wise words. I agree with you. Except I do question my T's methods. He definitely hasn't been attentive to our therapy relationship for the last few months that I saw him. He also didn't handle the goodbye well at all. I said "so this is the last time I'll see you til you get back?" He said "no... ethically I cant abandon you...that wouldn't be right..." Then he set our next appointment for March 31. The appointment setting was a clear signal that that was when he returns to work. In an earlier session he said he couldn't abandon me, he would see me still, just not 1x a week like we were then. He said for me to call him after the holidays. I said I'm not going to call him on his sabatical. He called me last week about an accounting question, asked how I was, I told him not so great (I had also sent a letter) then he said "I would see you if I weren't on leave..."
Well, I know that he needs to heal and he needs this time. But he really didn't handle this departure well at all. I feel pretty insignificant to him for how he has done. I am hurting a lot, but I guess it's inevitable when you are separated from someone you care very much about.
I'm going to hold on to the good things that I've gotten from therapy, but I have had such difficulty with how this has been handled, that I don't plan to go back. I've been in the mourning stage of this relationship and I don't want to start up again and go through this again. I know that this is just part of it, but I don't want a repeat.
I have been abandoned.
Joni
Posted by DAisym on January 25, 2008, at 15:18:33
In reply to Re: The Intimate Hour ----- » Daisym, posted by JoniS on January 25, 2008, at 7:11:03
(((Joni)))
I know you feel abandoned. But does it help at all to recognize that your therapist got "sick" and he just doesn't haven't in him to help you right now? (Or even, anymore?) I'm not saying you should go back -- perhaps it is time to find a new therapist or choose this ending point for yourself. And he didn't handle it very well -but that indicates how much he needed to take a leave, because he wasn't doing his job well. Too many therapist, I think, keep treating when they shouldn't.
I'm also not saying you shouldn't be upset or mad. I'd be hurting too, and angry at how unfair life is. Don't minimize these feelings as you hang on to the good things that happened for you over the years with this therapist. I think you have it right - you have been "abandoned" but it is an abandonment by necessity and filled with regret on his part.
In so many ways unexpected, bad endings in therapy are like a death. I'm hoping you know in your toes that this is all about him and not about the work you were doing together.
Have you read "Undercurrents?" - I've always wondered how her patients dealt with her absence. She describes how her partner helps her write a letter to her clients and closes down her practice because she becomes too depressed to work. But she never says what the response was.
Working through loss takes time. Allow yourself to grieve. Pamper yourself some. Keep writing if it helps.
Posted by JoniS on January 25, 2008, at 19:50:38
In reply to Re: The Intimate Hour -----, posted by DAisym on January 25, 2008, at 15:18:33
Posted by widget on January 28, 2008, at 16:11:05
In reply to Re: The Intimate Hour ----- » Daisym, posted by JoniS on January 25, 2008, at 7:11:03
Joni, I cannot tell you how badly I feel for you now. Your pain is so clear. I admire you for being able to deal with this situation. It sounds like you are "terminating" because of something in the therapist's life and could go onto another therapist. But, even as I think this, I feel breathless, as I cannot imagine me doing the same thing. I just saw my therapist and wondered why he doesn't just send me to another therapist as it is so painful to know I can never have what I want from him in this relationship. But, if he did, I don't think I could do it! I think I am "accepting" that he will never be in the relationship I want and that feels like a death to me. So, I told him what I had now was the pain to hold onto, at least the pain is real unlike my illusion of being with him. This makes perfect sense to me but he seemed distressed and said we should work on a different defense mechanism to use instead of the pain. But, in my life, it has been better to face the truth that may mean pain than not. So, I feel quite devestated and care about little right now. But, I hope you are ok; your post spoke directly to me. Widget
Posted by Dinah on January 30, 2008, at 18:45:27
In reply to Re: The Intimate Hour ----- » Daisym, posted by JoniS on January 25, 2008, at 7:11:03
I agree with Daisy completely.
But also, wasn't his leave of absence enforced? Perhaps the clinic said that he really couldn't see clients during this time period, or talk to them, even if he didn't want to abandon them? He might have brought the idea to them and had it rejected. If so, he might have been reluctant or embarassed to discuss this with clients.
I don't know. I saw my therapist for a while when he wasn't at his best, and even so I can't say what's the best thing to do. I think that seeing him off his pedestal did help in some ways. It changed the relationship in ways that might have been very good for me, but that didn't necessarily feel so good.
This is the end of the thread.
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