![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on February 12, 2008, at 12:09:45
The subject came up today, because I've been thinking about it since watching "Band of Brothers", that I am way too self indulgent. He agreed that I, like many people including himself, could be too self indulgent at times. Ok, fair enough. I said so, he agreed, and it is true.
But then somehow he got stuck. Somehow we got on the topic of mission or service volunteering. My position was that this is not really something I'd be very good at since I really don't like being around people. And he's saying that not liking being around people is part of my self indulgence. Now, I'm not sure this is true. I think introverts aren't necessarily self indulgent and extroverts aren't necessarily lacking in self indulgence. But I didn't argue the point, I just said that this really wasn't germane to what I was trying to say. I wasn't trying to be more giving to the world, what I meant was that I wanted to be more giving in my family.
So we move to money. My idea is that I need to spend less. His idea is that I need to spend money on charity. So I think I should return a recent purchase and he thinks I should give that money away, while I think it was irresponsible to spend money I didn't have and the return should count against my credit card balance, not be spent on something else. I pointed out in a reasonable way that what I was talking about was spending less money that I don't have, eating less so that I don't end up like my mother and a burden to my family, doing more chores around the house, doing my work during office hours so it didn't steal time from my family, etc.
And he couldn't let go returning this item and giving the money to charity. I finally told him I didn't think it was any more responsible to run up credit debt to give away than it was to run it up on something I wanted for myself. But that if he was so sure I needed to give money away, I'd skip my next session and use the money and what I earned during the hours that therapy uses up and give that to charity. Oh no, he said. The money had to be given from returning this item.
I'm pretty sure we were both angry. He was angry enough to set next week's hours without asking, and write them down wrong at that, and to forget to tell me to call if I needed him. I was angry enough to almost walk away without having him tell me to call if I needed him, but I turned around and knocked on his door and let him tell me.
I'm wondering whether to go back next time and say that I think that we were miscommunicating because I expressed myself badly, and the term I meant to use was irresponsible rather than self indulgent. To get him pried out of the incorrect track he's on.
Or whether to make my first act of renouncing self indulgence to quit therapy.
Posted by Dinah on February 12, 2008, at 12:20:47
In reply to No wonder we never talk about that, posted by Dinah on February 12, 2008, at 12:09:45
And to top it off, he forgot most of what I said last Friday, including an answer to a question *he* asked. We were talking about my mother's bleeding eyes, and he asked last Friday what I meant, and I explained about the blood vessels behind the retina bleeding causing her vision to be bad. Today I mentioned it in connection to wanting to eat more responsibly, and he asked the exact same question again. He said he was picturing bleeding eyes.
And we even fought about that stupid dream. He admits that if I dreamed God was telling me to do something, it would be wise to be wary of considering that it was God, not myself, saying so. Yet he was annoyed when I didn't believe that God actually was trying to say something to me in my dream. I said I always said I'd make a lousy prophet, because if I had a revelation, I'd be more likely to take myself to a mental hospital than I would be to believe it.
Posted by raisinb on February 12, 2008, at 12:26:53
In reply to No wonder we never talk about that, posted by Dinah on February 12, 2008, at 12:09:45
Crap. It almost sounds like one of those fights that was not really about what it was "about," if that makes sense. I say that because it's difficult to see why your T got so fixated on *one* strategy--returning *this* item to do *this* specific thing. The focus on charity also seems odd--plenty of people lead giving, fulfilled lives without doing "charity."
I agree with you--introverted does *not* equate with self-indulgence. Introverts simply need alone time to refuel their emotional resources--a refueling that extroverts get from relating to others. One could argue--and I do--that introverts actually make fewer demands for "indulgence" on other people, because they get more of their needs met during their time alone.
Maybe you should ask him how much money *he* gave to charity last year, and calculate what percentage of his income that represents :)
Posted by rskontos on February 12, 2008, at 12:47:13
In reply to Re: No wonder we never talk about that, posted by raisinb on February 12, 2008, at 12:26:53
Dinah, I really like the part about skipping the next session and giving that money to charity. It made me laugh because he did not bite on that. So he wants you to give but don't hurt him in the process just yourself. Well, I guess he would have a field day with me then. I am sure I give no where in the arena I need to. but then again, I feel that is personal and not for a therapist to tell me. So I guess I probably would get angry too. I agree with you on introverted theory as well. I am introverted by nature but have the extroverted part that loves to come out and take over. But that part hide alot of secrets. So I guess that is different from this discussion.
I agree with raisinb ask him how he gave. And anyway, tell him we are a recession, possibly, and you are protecting your spare cash so you can continue therapy. rsk
Posted by Dinah on February 12, 2008, at 12:57:50
In reply to Re: No wonder we never talk about that, posted by raisinb on February 12, 2008, at 12:26:53
I think likely you're right about the topic of the argument not being what it's really about. Whatever it was really about had to be on his side, though. I was calm and reasonable throughout most of the session until I finally got irritated enough that I said what I said about therapy. He's normally so unflappable and calm that when he isn't I give him the benefit of the doubt. He was angry long before I was.
I do wonder if it had something to do with his long held perception that I often reject what he has to offer. I think it's an only partially correct perception. Yes, I do reject something as incomprehensible as the suggestion that I give the money to charity instead of offset it against my credit card balance. But while I argue with him over a lot of what he says, over time I've grown to incorporate a lot of his views in my way of thinking. And he knows this. So... Well, maybe I should try to validate his viewpoint before I disagree with it. It just doesn't feel like it's my place to do that though, you know? Still, he's human as well as a therapist. It wouldn't hurt.
"I can see where you might think that my type of self indulgence would be best treated by giving to those outside my immediate circle. And you may well have a point there. Maybe I can take baby steps to get there, by first being more giving to my family."
Or maybe he was just in a bad mood and looking for a fight, and I foolishly broke down and gave him one.
I really don't know since I'm just guessing what's in his mind. And unfortunately by next session he won't even remember that we argued, much less what was in his mind. :(
Posted by Phillipa on February 12, 2008, at 13:04:02
In reply to Re: No wonder we never talk about that » raisinb, posted by Dinah on February 12, 2008, at 12:57:50
Dinah if you were rich and you may well be then charity would make sense but it you're trying to save money I would apply it to my credit card. That's just me. Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on February 12, 2008, at 13:06:16
In reply to Re: No wonder we never talk about that, posted by rskontos on February 12, 2008, at 12:47:13
I really don't know what was going on with him today. Maybe the idea of giving to others is something that's very important to him. Maybe he doesn't realize what a large chunk of income my therapy consumes, never mind the large chunk of two days a week. I'm lucky to get any work at all done on therapy days, which is one reason I need to work during family time.
And yes, it was abundantly obvious that he didn't want me to give to charity with *his* money. :)) I guess that wouldn't be self denying enough. It would be him denying.
Posted by Dinah on February 12, 2008, at 13:07:29
In reply to Re: No wonder we never talk about that » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on February 12, 2008, at 13:04:02
Well, it was pretty irresponsible of me to spend money I didn't have. The only responsible choice, to me, is to reverse that.
I don't understand why he doesn't understand that.
Posted by raisinb on February 12, 2008, at 13:12:29
In reply to Re: No wonder we never talk about that » raisinb, posted by Dinah on February 12, 2008, at 12:57:50
"So... Well, maybe I should try to validate his viewpoint before I disagree with it. It just doesn't feel like it's my place to do that though, you know? Still, he's human as well as a therapist. It wouldn't hurt."
You know, that's a conflict I've run into before with mine, too. Strictly speaking, it's not the client's job to meet the T's needs, but I also feel like it's sometimes hard to see where "treatment" ends and "giving them what they need" begins. My T used to say to me, "But I want you to see me for who I am, who I present to you, what is in front of you," and I felt that while that might be a legitimate goal theoretically, it wasn't what I needed right then (which was to express anger and have it validated). I told her that was *her* need, not what was good for me right then, and she hasn't mentioned it since. I don't know if she thought I was right, or simply that it wouldn't be productive to fight about it anymore.
It is hard to know when they are right and when they are simply human.
Maybe it would be productive to have a conversation about what he really wanted (if he remembers, of course), and why. Of course, it could lead to another fight. It has certainly turned out that way many times with me and my T :)
Posted by raisinb on February 12, 2008, at 13:17:50
In reply to Re: No wonder we never talk about that » Phillipa, posted by Dinah on February 12, 2008, at 13:07:29
Also, this may be a personal prejudice of mine, but I'm not sure how *you* are supposed to grow by giving away money. If it is *your* growth he is promoting, then he ought to insist on you giving time and emotional energy (not that he ought to do that, but at least it would be more consistent with therapeutic aims, if that makes sense?). I doubt many people become more empathetic by giving away money. I have had truly transformative volunteer experiences, but I doubt they'd have been the same if I just made myself poorer financially.
Posted by Dinah on February 12, 2008, at 13:33:09
In reply to Re: No wonder we never talk about that, posted by raisinb on February 12, 2008, at 13:17:50
Well, he did try to get me to volunteer first.
I think that if I bring it up again I'll definitely frame it in terms of responsibility. That's probably more what I'm talking about anyway.
Of course, he thinks I worry way too much about responsibility, so that might not work too well either. He'd probably think my worrying about my irresponsibility was self indulgent. :)
He'll have forgotten all of this by Friday. Sometimes his forgetfulness irritates me but often I find it quite convenient.
Plus, I usually get to tell him stuff many many times before he starts to remember that he's heard it before. :)
Posted by JoniS on February 12, 2008, at 14:36:06
In reply to No wonder we never talk about that, posted by Dinah on February 12, 2008, at 12:09:45
Dinah
I find it so pecular that your T would so strongly impress upon you his ideas of what you should do, in this case, giving to charity. I thought T's generally try to avoid influencing their patients with their own agenda. It's kind of scary, really, because they are in such a position of powerful influence, wouldn't be just about abusive to push their agenda?
I agree with you on the whole introvert- indulgence theories. I happen to be an introvert, and yes, sometimes too self-indulgent, but I don't agree that that relationship that he described exists.
I don't even see my T agreeing that I'm ever "too ________" whether it's self-indulgent or what, doesn't that imply there is something wrong with you? Maybe even subtle "shaming"? I imagine my T might reframe the statement and help me determine what I'm needing and how to get the needs satisfied in a healthy way.
By the way, I often make purchases that I shouldn't, usually one of those impulsive, comfort craving decisions. Most of the time I end up taking the purchase back or at least part of it, within a day or 2. I used to have enough income to make impulsive purchases now and then, but these days it is not an option to spend beyond the necessary things. I've never worked on this in therapy. I'm trying to control it on my own.
I think you've been with your T for a pretty long time (if I remember correctly) but still, it seems odd to me, how he behaves.
Good Luck with that. You seem to be very wise and discerning to me, so I know you will handle this well.
Joni
Posted by rskontos on February 12, 2008, at 14:52:29
In reply to Re: No wonder we never talk about that, posted by raisinb on February 12, 2008, at 13:17:50
Well said, and an excellent point. rsk
Posted by MidnightBlue on February 12, 2008, at 15:33:32
In reply to No wonder we never talk about that, posted by Dinah on February 12, 2008, at 12:09:45
Dinah,
Humm that must have been some item! Either very expensive or in his eyes very self-indulgent! It is wrong in my opinion to go into debt for charity. Charity should come "off the top" of what you have to spend, but it should NOT be something that prevents you from paying your rent or feeding your family. And it only really "counts" if you want to give it not because someone makes you feel guilty about not giving.
And a LOT of charity work can be done "behind the scenes" quietly working in a room. You don't have to directly interact with others. Think of an organization who needs help balancing their books or even just stuffing envelopes and addressing letters! Or how about sorting donated clothes or stocking food? Those things can have limited "face" time with others but still be very charitable.
Hang in there Dinah, it sounds like you both had a bad day!
MidnightBlue
Posted by Dinah on February 12, 2008, at 16:42:18
In reply to Re: No wonder we never talk about that, posted by JoniS on February 12, 2008, at 14:36:06
I don't feel that wise. I feel like a little girl stomping her feet and saying that if trying to be more responsible leads to fights, then I'm just not going to do that any more. I'm trying to at least change that thought to that I'm not going to talk about it any more. :)
My middle name is avoidance.
My therapist is a counselor, and I think that he tends to be more directive than a more analytically trained therapist would be. He often problem solves with me. Sometimes it's helpful, sometimes it's not. Sometimes I really don't need problem solving.
I don't think it bothered me that he agreed with me. It's not something I'm particularly sensitive about. He has said more hurtful things to me when he was trying to be nice, I think. He does hurt my feelings plenty. But not this time.
I sometimes think that this whole thing is just coming to a puttering stop. But by the time it finally ends, I'll be more than happy to have it happen.
Posted by Dinah on February 12, 2008, at 16:47:04
In reply to Re: No wonder we never talk about that » Dinah, posted by MidnightBlue on February 12, 2008, at 15:33:32
I think we did both have a bad day. At first when I came home I was just so perplexed and irritated that I didn't feel anything else. But now I'm feeling very sad about it. I'm probably blowing this way out of proportion. That he forgot to tell me I could call him if I need to really shook me. That and the moment where we looked at each other, and I at least realized he wasn't going to say it (and he may possibly have decided not to say it) and I turned away.
But I did go back, and he did say it. And I did call afterwards to leave an apology for my part in whatever happened on his machine.
I hate discord.
Posted by Dinah on February 12, 2008, at 16:52:18
In reply to Re: No wonder we never talk about that » JoniS, posted by Dinah on February 12, 2008, at 16:42:18
> I sometimes think that this whole thing is just coming to a puttering stop. But by the time it finally ends, I'll be more than happy to have it happen.
I take this part back.
Posted by Daisym on February 12, 2008, at 19:25:21
In reply to Re: No wonder we never talk about that, posted by Dinah on February 12, 2008, at 16:52:18
Makes me wonder who needed to ratchet up the intensity of things...
Did you feel him projecting? - it sure sounds like it to me. Some guilty pleasure of his that is causing some angst, perhaps.
I'm at the other end of the volunteering/service scale. I need to learn to charge for some of what I do, I give so much away, I once wondered if I have a martyr complex. Now that made my therapist sit up.
It sure sounds off to me - and with-holding comfort at the end doesn't sound like your therapist. Perhaps you should go in to your next session and ask for a "do over" and a refund...:)
Posted by Dinah on February 12, 2008, at 21:22:37
In reply to Re: No wonder we never talk about that » Dinah, posted by Daisym on February 12, 2008, at 19:25:21
It really doesn't sound like him, does it?
We've talked about the forbidden topic lately. Maybe that did make one of us want to increase the intensity. Or maybe he's feeling angry in general with me. I'm not sure.
Or maybe it was all in my mind. It already has a dreamlike quality.
Posted by rskontos on February 13, 2008, at 12:31:17
In reply to Re: No wonder we never talk about that » Daisym, posted by Dinah on February 12, 2008, at 21:22:37
Dinah, I would not if I were you think he was angry with you. You should not take his feelings on. He should worry about your feelings not you worrying about his. That is his job really not yours, I feel. I think you do yourself more harm to take his on. Role reversal in effect. Just my take though. If he is having a bad day, he needs to rein himself him. I mean, I know that you too have been in therapy for a long time, but still...maybe a refund is in order if he projected on you like Daisym suggested. If not, then he really needs to 'fess up to what was really going on, because I am with the crowd, doesn't sound like him at all. Upping the intensity stills doesn't sound like something that would make him go off in the tangent, unless that way just what it; was a tangent and a separate thing on its own.
rsk
Posted by MissK on February 13, 2008, at 15:24:21
In reply to No wonder we never talk about that, posted by Dinah on February 12, 2008, at 12:09:45
>His idea is that I need to spend money on charity.
I don't see why you are having an argument with him over something that is completely up to you. Whether, when and how you give to charity or not.
I would skip the charity argument and get to the real issue you have identified, which is:
>I wasn't trying to be more giving to the world, what I meant was that I wanted to be more giving in my family.
Posted by Dinah on February 13, 2008, at 18:17:26
In reply to Re: No wonder we never talk about that » Dinah, posted by MissK on February 13, 2008, at 15:24:21
I'd have loved to do just that. But he seemed totally stuck on the idea and wouldn't let it go.
But he'll have forgotten by next time, and I'm not foolish enough to bring it up again in those exact terms. :)
Posted by Dinah on February 15, 2008, at 22:04:37
In reply to Re: No wonder we never talk about that » MissK, posted by Dinah on February 13, 2008, at 18:17:26
He was coming down with a cold. I'm sorry he hasn't felt well of course. But it does explain a lot. And he wasn't mad. Just not feeling well.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.