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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 2 to 26 of 26. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on March 22, 2008, at 11:48:34
In reply to Am I being childish? Mad at T for cancelling, posted by Poet on March 22, 2008, at 11:42:15
I second that!
Although I would say that it probably has nothing to do with your importance. More likely she just wasn't aware of how bad it would be until she got to her first session and spent the entire time worrying about getting home. So her first client is likely to have to repeat everything he/she said anyway.
Or at least that's how it is with my therapist.
Although I must admit I think he'd be terrified to cancel my session while admitting to being already at the office. Once I got to his office when the streets were flooded, after calling to check with him first. When he was many minutes late, he called to say that he was stuck in a high spot, unable to continue. And I was childish enough to be upset that I had braved the floods but he didn't. Even though I know he's in a low sports car. And when the streets got low enough for him to get through, he called back and asked if I'd left and if not, he'd be there in a few minutes.
It's not because I'm important so much as that I think he's scared of me. :(
Posted by Phillipa on March 22, 2008, at 12:53:32
In reply to Re: Am I being childish? Mad at T for cancelling » Poet, posted by Dinah on March 22, 2008, at 11:48:34
Poet can you think of it like closing schools when the forecast is bad and they want car off the street? Phillipa
Posted by rskontos on March 22, 2008, at 14:03:08
In reply to Am I being childish? Mad at T for cancelling, posted by Poet on March 22, 2008, at 11:42:15
Poet, I have to admit that not matter how understanding I might have acted to my T, I would have thought the same thing as you did. And I would not have used the call me if you need me thing either. I would have thought well of course I need you I have been saving everything until today and by next week I will have either forgotten it by burying it or have dealt with it on my own, successfully or not. And I don't think one hour would have made a big difference unless she did not have her mind on her work and then that would have pissed me off to think she was thinking about leaving so maybe just focus on her not being with you during the session mentally and call it even.
But go ahead with the cyber slap. She did earn that either way, she could have stayed and kept her focus.
I am with you.
rsk
Posted by Poet on March 23, 2008, at 16:14:58
In reply to Re: Am I being childish? Mad at T for cancelling » Poet, posted by Dinah on March 22, 2008, at 11:48:34
Hi Dinah,
I think I'd rather have my therapist be scared of me then maybe she would have waited around another hour. She lives close to the clinic, my drive is much further so again had she said she didn't want me driving in bad weather I would have understood.
Though if she had been there in body only with her mind somewhere else it would have been a waste anyway.
My depression will still be here next week, I don't see Clueless until April 1 (April Fools Day, I though it approrpriate) so I will lay on the couch, babble when I can and just hope there isn't another blizzard next week.
Poet
Posted by Poet on March 23, 2008, at 16:16:59
In reply to Re: Am I being childish? Mad at T for cancelling, posted by Phillipa on March 22, 2008, at 12:53:32
Hi Phillipa,
They did want cars off the streets, but T lives close to the clinic, it's me who would have had a longer drive. So I guess it's a snowday only unlike school snowdays I wanted to go. I will hang in until Friday. I can call her. I will be okay.
Poet
Posted by Poet on March 23, 2008, at 16:22:08
In reply to Re: Am I being childish? Mad at T for cancelling » Poet, posted by rskontos on March 22, 2008, at 14:03:08
Hi RS,
You wrote: I have to admit that not matter how understanding I might have acted to my T, I would have thought the same thing as you did. I would have thought well of course I need you I have been saving everything until today and by next week I will have either forgotten it by burying it or have dealt with it on my own, successfully or not.
Exactly how I feel. I had things I needed to tell her, and also wanted help on coping with my family at Easter brunch. I took two clonazepam)and I sat as far away from my brother as I could and only spoke to him if he spoke to me first. So I think I handled it pretty damn good.
I hope she felt her cyberslap. It better not snow this Friday.
Poet
Posted by Dinah on March 23, 2008, at 17:30:43
In reply to Re: Am I being childish? Mad at T for cancelling » Dinah, posted by Poet on March 23, 2008, at 16:14:58
I don't suppose she has open times on other days?
If my therapist can't see me at the normal time, he'll usually try to work me in elsewhere.
And sometimes I do wish my therapist would cancel when he clearly isn't himself. If he's sick or preoccupied. :(
Posted by Poet on March 23, 2008, at 18:09:14
In reply to Re: Am I being childish? Mad at T for cancelling » Poet, posted by Dinah on March 23, 2008, at 17:30:43
Hi Dinah,
She said "let's see when you can come in (pause) how about the ususal time? I guess I should have said do I have to wait that long? But I didn't, I was hurt and just said okay. I am probably going to call her before Friday, just to tell her I am more depressed.
Poet
Posted by raisinb on March 25, 2008, at 10:14:11
In reply to Re: Am I being childish? Mad at T for cancelling » Dinah, posted by Poet on March 23, 2008, at 17:09:14
Oof, I'll send her a cyberslap, too. I hope you can express how rejected you felt in your next session.
(As for me, I hate driving in snow, and I've had several serious car accidents in the last five years, so I tend to leave work at the slightest hint of bad weather...but if my T did it?! Yikes!)
Posted by Poet on March 25, 2008, at 13:52:56
In reply to Re: Am I being childish? Mad at T for cancelling » Poet, posted by raisinb on March 25, 2008, at 10:14:11
Hi Raisinb,
Thanks for the extra cyberslap to my T. She better really apologize as one of the reasons I needed to see her was that I had to be with my evil brother for Easter brunch. I survived it with Clonazepam, but would rather have talked through it, too.
No snow in the forecast for this Friday. Keep your fingers crossed.
Poet
Posted by mair on March 25, 2008, at 20:56:43
In reply to Am I being childish? Mad at T for cancelling, posted by Poet on March 22, 2008, at 10:42:15
Poet
From the way you describe it, I would feel offended as well.
However, it sounds to me that this was a decision she made while she was at the clinic, because otherwise, I'd think she would have called you before she ever left for work.
So her explanation, no matter how feeble it sounds, may actually be true. I've certainly sat at work through many snow storms calculating whether I'm better off leaving sooner, before lots of snow accumulates, or later when maybe things have been plowed some. But my neighborhood is up a fairly steep hill and my house is down a pretty steep driveway so getting home can be very tricky sometimes. And she may have had you in mind even if she didn't say it. Maybe she didn't want you struggling to make it in.
All of that being said, it sounds as if she handled things poorly.
Let us know how it goes.
mair
Posted by Poet on March 26, 2008, at 10:48:11
In reply to Re: Am I being childish? Mad at T for cancelling » Poet, posted by mair on March 25, 2008, at 21:56:43
Hi Mair,
I'll post how it goes assuming she doesn't cancel again since as of this morning there is a forecast of six inches of snow starting late Thursday. She probably was thinking of me driving through the snow, but just didn't say it. At least I hope she did.
Poet
Posted by mair on March 26, 2008, at 17:47:36
In reply to Re: Am I being childish? Mad at T for cancelling » mair, posted by Poet on March 26, 2008, at 10:48:11
Now I have my own appointment glitch. Last week my T cancelled my Tues. appointment time because she had to leave town for a family matter. She asked me to come in Wed. am (today) instead. I knew I had a very busy day and I told her that I wasn't certain I could make it. She said that was ok because she didn't intend to fill it otherwise (since she was going to be out of town until right before then) and I should let her know by last night if I decided I couldn't come.
This morning I drove up to her office (about a 40 min. round trip) and her car wasn't there and her door was locked. I waited around for an awkward 15 minutes before I just left.
The whole way back to my office I vascillated between anger at her for forgetting and worry that something bad had happened to her on her drive back home yesterday.
I left a message on her machine after I got to work and she called me about an hour later. Her side of the story was that she remembered that we left it that I would call her if I could come, not if I couldn't. I remember it so chrystally clear otherwise.
This is certainly an honest mistake on someone's part and if this confusion occurred with almost anyone else, I can't see that I would treat it as anything other than a minor inconvenience. MOst of the time, I roll with things pretty well. And in this instance, it didn't really matter. I'm not in awful shape; I wasn't hanging on by a thread until I could see her; I have the opportunity if I want it to see her on Friday. But still it threw me totally off balance for most of the morning, and had I not been too busy to dwell on it more, it probably would've screwed up the rest of my day too.
I'm pretty mystified why this kind of misunderstanding carries so much more weight when it's with a pdoc or T. (I did have something like this happen with my pdoc once; it was my fault and to me, it seemed like a very big deal)
Any thoughts why these very insignificant events (like mine, not Poet's) seem so much more emotionally charged?
Mair
Posted by Phillipa on March 26, 2008, at 19:05:05
In reply to Why Do We Let This Stuff Bother Us?, posted by mair on March 26, 2008, at 17:47:36
Well maybe like with my surgery I need someone to talk to and advice on meds. So talked by phone with both. T was cold and couldn't talk needed to eat lunch. Poor excuse. Pdoc charges $35 a call so she talked to me. Said that after surgery can take up to six months to feel better. See you're stable and I'm not right now. I think that is the difference for me. Phillipa
Posted by mair on March 26, 2008, at 21:33:26
In reply to Re: Why Do We Let This Stuff Bother Us? » mair, posted by Phillipa on March 26, 2008, at 19:05:05
Please don't misunderstand me. I think there are lots of times when we have very legitimate reasons to be upset. I can understand why Poet felt upset and I know what you're describing with your T would leave me feeling totally devastated. I'm sorry that happened.
My T once promised to email me her contact information before she went on vacation. I got an email from her the day she left with no message. It turns out the message was there - but through some sort of computer peculiarity, it was hard to find. But I thought the email to me was a rushed afterthought - that she sat down to write the email out of a sense of obligation but was so scattered and distracted trying to get ready to leave that she hit the "send" button without realizing that she hadn't actually written a message. I lived with that thought, miserably, for the next couple of weeks. After she got back and we sorted out what happened, I felt better, but it didn't really lessen the pain I felt while she was away.
I guess my point is that while it's easy to see how many miscommunications and misunderstandings can sting, no matter how unintended, it's harder for me to understand why they are so disquieting even when I feel more stable and even when I know deep down that the misunderstanding that caused the appointment glitch, had to be the simplest form of human error, and bore no reflection on how she cared about me or thought of me. I'm particularly curious because I know that the very same sort of miscommunication about an appointment with a different kind of doctor, or my dentist or accountant or lawyer, for instance, wouldn't carry with it anywhere near the same emotional weight.
Mair
Posted by mair on March 26, 2008, at 21:41:05
In reply to Re: Am I being childish? Mad at T for cancelling » mair, posted by Poet on March 26, 2008, at 10:48:11
Poet - I don't know whether I should feel sorry for you because you are stung by the way your T cancelled your appointment OR because you're in a place where a major snow storm is happening at the end of March. I, too, live in such a place where April can seem like the cruelest month of all.
I didn't want to leave you with the impression that you had no right to feel upset. I just marvel sometimes at how reactive I can be to even the simplest perceived slights. I'm sensitive under the best of circumstances but always hyper-sensitive where she's concerned.
mair
Posted by raisinb on March 27, 2008, at 10:46:16
In reply to Re: Why Do We Let This Stuff Bother Us? » Phillipa, posted by mair on March 26, 2008, at 21:33:26
I've struggled with this throughout my whole therapy. My only guess is that such things push our childhood "buttons," even while our adult, rational self sits by saying, "why are you reacting this way?"
I vividly remember a time, early in therapy, when my T forgot my appointment time because it was switched. I also remember a huge fight we had because she'd spent a minute fiddling with the blinds in her office during a session (she thought the sun was in my eyes; I was positive she couldn't handle my stuff and was trying to create distractions from me). Last week, we'd switched an appointment time again, and I was so positive she'd forget (she didn't, but I assumed her hurried demeanor when I showed up meant she had) that I couldn't speak for the entire session.
Then, the next session, we had a sun issue again; she fixed them, I didn't yell, but was ranting about being frustrated over lack of change, and she said, "well you let me fix the blinds, so change is possible!" We laughed, and I think it was pretty funny for my therapist, who's usually so serious, but there's a tiny part of me who is still hurt. Most of me is marveling at how I could have thrown such a gigantic fit over some window blinds, even while knowing I might do it again any day.
*Sigh* What I do is laugh at myself a lot. And process this stuff with my therapist. But I think it's continually surprising to us, as adults (who probably do the same things in our professional lives all the time--occasionally forget a meeting, go home because of weather) to get so upset. There's always a little kid in there yelling, you DON'T LOVE me!
Therapy is difficult because our deepest feelings are on the table. Appointment consistency and attention to the details are sometimes the only way a T shows caring back.
Posted by sunnydays on March 27, 2008, at 14:31:59
In reply to Re: Why Do We Let This Stuff Bother Us? » mair, posted by raisinb on March 27, 2008, at 10:46:16
I've got a thing to add... .I HATE days like yesterday and today where my T doesn't answer my emails. It's possible he's busy or not even at work (he only looks at emails at work) so I have no right to be upset, but I'm so scared it means he doesn't like me anymore. Sooooo scared, and I've emailed him like nine times in two days. And he hasn't written anything. I may be able to get an idea of if he's there when I go to group tonight. But then it'll be even more nerve-wracking if I find out he HAS been there, because then it's just like WHY aren't you reassuring me, are you mad at me, do you hate me.
Ugggggh.
sunnydays
Posted by DAisym on March 27, 2008, at 14:51:23
In reply to Why Do We Let This Stuff Bother Us?, posted by mair on March 26, 2008, at 17:47:36
Two things come to mind for me: object constancy and reliability. I think we react strongly to anything that suggests that we aren't held firmly in our therapist's mind - forgetting a conversation, getting details wrong, missing appointments suggests that we aren't front and center in their minds. It isn't the adult part of us that is reacting, it is the young child whose parents didn't get it right 100% of the time. We might really know that there is no way they can remember every detail of all their patient's lives but we sure want them too.
I also think it is a painful reminder that they are more important to us than we to them. It isn't that we aren't important at all...but we only have one of them and they have lots of us. And since contact is limited to mostly these scheduled times, there is loss in missing an appointment. Like Sunny said, "don't you love me?"
And object constancy comes into play. We've dubbed it "therapist-constancy" in my therapy - I have a hard time feeling the connection and feeling like he is there for me without frequent contact. And missed appointments make it worse. I think I have a pavlovian response to therapy after all this time...when I think I'm supposed to be having a session, my unconscious opens up, my brain gets ready...and it is disappointing to be in therapy mode and have no therapy.
Probably if there weren't the rules of contact, missed appointments wouldn't be so huge. When someone else has to cancel, we don't take it personal. EVERYTHING about therapy is personal. EVERYTHING.
Maybe that is how we know we are done...things like this don't bother us as much.
I'm sorry things got messed up. I hope you go tomorrow.
Posted by Phillipa on March 27, 2008, at 19:24:47
In reply to Re: Why Do We Let This Stuff Bother Us? » Phillipa, posted by mair on March 26, 2008, at 21:33:26
Not to hyjack here we go again trying another Monday. So sick of this. I do relate to object constancy that's Melanie Klein right? As my long ago pdoc did therphy too and said that was the cause of my agoraphobia. If someone leaves I believe they are gone don't exist. Phillipa ps envy you guys the long term relationships you've built.
Posted by mair on March 28, 2008, at 21:43:05
In reply to Re: Why Do We Let This Stuff Bother Us?, posted by DAisym on March 27, 2008, at 14:51:23
" I think we react strongly to anything that suggests that we aren't held firmly in our therapist's mind - forgetting a conversation, getting details wrong, missing appointments suggests that we aren't front and center in their minds."
>
>" I also think it is a painful reminder that they are more important to us than we to them."These statements certainly strike a chord. I always seem to struggle so much with feeling comfortable with the T-patient relationship. With all of the rules and borders, it's very easy to decide you aren't important. Ironically, my T and I were just starting to get back on track. We've had a couple of sessions hashing over my feelings about her failure to say anything to me about my pdoc's husband's suicide (which i found out about from someone else). She (my T) was so shocked by it that she viewed it as an event in her personal life; not in her professional life. So it never occurred to her that there might be a spill-over. I had a hard time articulating what I thought she should have done and why. I kept telling her that I really didn't want to be a part of her personal life and I understood her need to place her professional life aside when she goes home every night. But still...
She finally articulated it pretty well by saying something about how I wanted to be important to her and to be someone that she sometimes thought about and was concerned about even when she wasn't at work.
I guess that's close. I'm being totally honest in saying that I don't want to be a participant in her personal life - but I don't like being reminded, either, of those barriers.
As to whether I went - see below.
mair
Posted by mair on March 28, 2008, at 22:10:11
In reply to Re: Why Do We Let This Stuff Bother Us? » mair, posted by Phillipa on March 27, 2008, at 19:24:47
After being upset with my T for not showing up for an appointment I was supposed to have on Wednesday, she called me at work today at 2:15 or so to ask why I hadn't shown up for my 2 PM appointment. I said something like "no it's at 3, and I still have the appointment card to prove it." She reminded me that after the last app't fiasco on Wed she asked me about Friday and I told her I would be there, at 3. She had corrected me and told me 2 (she has another regular patient at 3). As she was reminding me of this conversation, what she was saying came back to me, but the 3 o'clock time was so embedded, that I apparently never really took in the message about the correct time for the appointment.
Even though she had previously corrected me about the time, she was profusely apologetic about having steered me wrong on the original appointment card and I think she was pretty flustered that she had made that kind of error, particularly on the heels of the screw up over Wednesday's appointment.
So here's the kicker - After I got off the phone I checked my calendar and saw that I'd marked 2 pm, and when I got home I dug around and found the orignal appointment card - it said 2 pm. So, I was totally wrong in every respect. I don't know how or why I was so convinced that it was at 3; obviously I never got it from her.
I feel bad because I know I left her with the impression that she had actually given me an appointment card which noted, as a time, the same time as another client and because she was obviously flustered about having made that egregious an error.
She told me on the phone that the timing of this was so bad because I recently told her that I was starting to get the impression that she hoped I would terminate. She didn't want the appointment snafus to reinforce that.Nevermind what's in her subconcious. What about mine? In literally hundreds of times of seeing her over many many years, this is maybe only the second time I've screwed up the time - and if she's right about Wednesday, I've managed to do it twice in the same week.
Is the reverse true? Is this my subconcious way of telling her she's not important to me?
Posted by Daisym on March 29, 2008, at 1:26:58
In reply to This Time I Blew It, posted by mair on March 28, 2008, at 22:10:11
I don't think so. I think based on the conversation you've been having about her thinking about you outside of sessions, this may have been an unconscious test to see if she'd miss you if you didn't show up, especially when it is not your regular time. It is a classic kind of "am I important enough and do you still have time for me?" kind of scenario.
And of course, all of it is primarily unconscious. A few sessions ago, I was remembering the first time I ever called and asked for a session "sooner" than the one scheduled. I'd had this horrible fight with my husband over the weekend and it was early on Monday when my therapist called back. He made time for me that afternoon and I remember being really surprised that he'd do that. When I said this, my therapist kind of smiled and said, "I'm glad I past the test." I said, "Do you think I was testing you?" And he answered, "Not on purpose. But yes, you were sort of seeing if I really had time to deal with what was happening in your life and if I was really going to be available to you - thank goodness I wasn't booked up that day!"
So I think we all do it, and we do it over and over again.
Can you hear me now? How about now? and now...
Posted by Poet on March 29, 2008, at 13:21:19
In reply to This Time I Blew It, posted by mair on March 28, 2008, at 22:10:11
Hi Mair,
I don't know about Wednesday, but I think maybe Friday was your subconscious way of telling her, I can make you sit and wait for me and then I won't show up. Then again you had it in your head that your appointment was at 3, so you didn't feel the need to check the calendar or the appointment card.
I think she's still important to you, you just made a mistake and you can talk about it in your next session if you're brave enough to admit that it was you that had the time wrong.
By the way my therapist apologized for cancelling last week, but added "at least we didn't get that snow that was predicted for today." I predict that if we had, she would have cancelled me again. Argh.
Poet
Posted by Annierose on April 3, 2008, at 14:47:58
In reply to Re: Why Do We Let This Stuff Bother Us?, posted by DAisym on March 27, 2008, at 14:51:23
>>EVERYTHING about therapy is personal. EVERYTHING. <<
Isn't this the absolute truth?? Every change in the schedule, every minute they are late or over, every nuance to every sentence they speak .. is personal.
Add this to our list of rules.
# 1. Everything is personal.
This is the end of the thread.
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