![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Trotter on January 20, 2009, at 2:03:01
My mother doesn't know how to love and all three children did not receive the nurturing they needed as infants, or at any stage of childhood for that matter. My father was too busy with work and took no real interest in the kids.
As a result of this, two of us, including myself, have suffered from a lifetime of unsuccessful relationships and depression. The other brother was 'adopted' by his wife (he was 20, she 40) and she gave him the unconditional love he never got from his mother. I think he got a foster mother and wife for the price of one. As a consequence his life is not such a train wreck. Funny. At the time I tried to talk him out of it, but it's turned out well for him.
I have a huge amount of anger towards my parents. I had it out with them at Xmas, and accused them of not knowing what love is. Although they did not know what I was talking about, it ended well and they promised to work on building a better relationship. I sent them the book "A General Theory of Love" so they could understand the consequences of a mother not bonding with her children.
Got a letter back from them basically saying how good parents they were and that my depression was caused more by bad genes and bad relationships. That is nonsense of course. My parents, and their extended families did not suffer from depression, so where did the depression genes come from? And I was depressed before my marriage went bad. What a copout. I really hate them now.
I see only two options. I can walk away from them or try to convince them that they are responsible to no small extent for my/our problems. You see I cannot have a meaningful relationship with them while I hate them so much. And I cannot forgive them until they show some genuine remorse. I refuse to have a nice, polite, superficial so-called relationship with them any more. It has gone beyond that. They either take responsibility and show they really care or I walk away from them for good.
My therapist sees the value in trying to work through this with my parents. I see the value too, if I could make a breakthrough. I know I cannot make them love me, because they really don't know how to love, especially my mother, but if they could only show genuine remorse, I could then forgive them.
They are so in denial. They think my other brothers are okay. They are so out of touch they don't know my elder brother is lucky to be alive, having on two occasions put a gun to his head but failed to find the courage to pull the trigger.
I am meeting my parents next week. I am tempted to tell them about my brother's suicide attempts, to dispel their defence that it is just me that is dysfunctional. But this was told to me in confidence by my brother, so I don't think I can.
I think I have to try to make my parents accountable, feel guilt and remorse, otherwise I cannot forgive them. Only if they show themselves to be human can I begin to love them. While they deny I cannot get past this anger.
I really don't think I am going to have any success with this. They are so set in their ways. They are in their 80s, although totally mentally capable. They are probably too old to handle this sort of thing, but I can't wait until they get senile or die. It is now or never.
My therapist says I am very courageous to try this. Brave or stupid, I honestly don't know. What I do know is I cannot have a relationship with them while I despise them so. I know they tried to be good parents, in a dutiful sort of way, but they neglected the most important ingredient - love.
Anyone been through something like this?
Trotter
Posted by sassyfrancesca on January 20, 2009, at 9:34:06
In reply to My so-called family, posted by Trotter on January 20, 2009, at 2:03:01
((Trotter)) I understand your frustration. My mother was very abusive (physically and verbally)........I realize(d) that I could either go on trying to get her to get it (not going to happen), and remain frustrated for the rest of my life.
Or...accept who she is and try to have whatever relationship we could have (she is 86).
I know that sounds simplistic, and it is.
I never knew my father, and grew up in extreme poverty, molested, cockroaches, rats, snow which came in thru a crack in the wall, had my hand held over an open fire by another drunken woman neighbor, and the bad stuff is endless.
I joined the army right out of high school; best thing I ever did.
Unfortunately (some) people parent they way THEY were parented/treated. It may be that your mother (father?) were brought up in a cold, unloving atmosphere.
When you say how you feel, and they don't get it, it is very painful...but that is all you can do.
After that, the ball is in their court.
We all want to be loved and validated and heard by our parents. If they cannot or will not, then WE have a choice to make.
Continue to be angry and bitter and frustrated and what we didn't get (and still don't).....
Or try to have some kind of relationship, whatever that may be.
I refused to let the past control my present. I "married" my mother and spent 31 years being abused. I am now divorced (excruciating decision); fear of being alone and abandoment....
I've written my memoir (Ghost Child to Triumph/from a child with no voice, to someone who speaks up against injustice)
Won a scholarship and went back to school at age 61.
After being voted out of church: www.churchabusepoetrytherapy.com....over 15,200 hits so far
I am the moderator of an abused survivors' group
I am "patting" myself on the back, because no matter what happened to us, we now as adults....have choices.
I say this with love and caring (and understanding!!)
P.S. You cannot make them feel guilt, remorse, etc.....they feel and ARE who they are.
I would have liked to have had my mother understand what it felt like to be molested while sleeping (she left me alone at night)....
The only person you can change is yourself (trite, I know....but true)......perhaps you could try and understand why they are the people they are and what happened to make them that way; perhaps insight would soften your frustration and anger.......
I see that you are making your love for them conditional (unless or until they do what you want or need).....I doubt at their age it will happen.
Unfortunately, we couldn't choose our parents (LOL)....there were things my mother did, that I would never tell a living soul...but she is the only parent I have, and in a short time, she will be gone.
I hope i haven't rambled on too long or offended you; want to let you know i have been there.
Love, Sassy
I think if you choose to walk away, you might be sorry later on...perhaps.
I don't think that telling them about your brother's suicide will change a thing; it will just further entrench their denial, and you will feel further rage......that's sounds like emotional blackmail; you want something from them, and you think by telling them something so horrific, they will get it. They will either NOT believe it, or will be devastated. Hurting them won't resolve any issues.
Again, I don't want to offend you...just saying what I think will happen. Sorry this is so long.
I got the courage to ask my mother why she didn't do anything about me being molested. Her response? I didn't know.......(she did)
Posted by Dinah on January 20, 2009, at 12:02:08
In reply to My so-called family, posted by Trotter on January 20, 2009, at 2:03:01
I'm afraid I really don't understand enough to comment. You say they tried to be dutiful parents, but that they didn't know how to love. Could you describe it more? Did your mother physically or verbally abuse you, or neglect you? Or was it more that she wasn't a warm person, or didn't express affection? Your father was gone a lot, working?
I'm guessing that you would probably need to be more specific in exactly what behaviors you want them to apologize for. Are you and your therapist working on that? As a mother, were my son to tell me I didn't know how to love, or that I was dutiful yet unloving, I would be distressed beyond measure, but I'm not sure I'd understand what it was I'd done wrong or what I could apologize for other than clearly failing him in a fundamental way.
Of course, I realize that you might not wish to share the particulars with the board, and that's perfectly understandable.
It must hurt to be so angry. I hope you find the peace you hope for in this encounter.
Posted by Phillipa on January 20, 2009, at 12:28:06
In reply to Re: My so-called family » Trotter, posted by Dinah on January 20, 2009, at 12:02:08
You know this is just an opinion but each generation is raised differently and cultures as well. I have a lot of German in me so coldness was part of how my Mother was brought up and I had to accept this as she is dead. Love Phillipa
Posted by seldomseen on January 20, 2009, at 14:03:20
In reply to My so-called family, posted by Trotter on January 20, 2009, at 2:03:01
I do understand where you are, and I also understand the need you feel for your parents to accept culpabiity in some measure for your situation. Oh boy - do I!
I daresay that most of our parents have left a mark on very very many of us.
As someone who has/is traveling this very path I do have a few comments that are based solely on my experience.
I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that I drew the short stick when it came to parents. To quote an infamous poster WOWSA! but that is an understatement. My mother is clearly mentally ill and my father, well, once someone knows better, they typically do better I guess.
You indicated that your mother didn't know how to love. Do you think that if she *had* known that things would've been different? Do you think she would've chosen differently?
I'm not saying they didn't contribute to your hurt, or fail to provide a positive model for love, but it seems to me that their intent wasn't malicious. IMO, one has to counterbalance intent with culpability.
I'm also a big believer in "situational badness" and I ulitmately realized that the rage I felt was at the situation, and not at the people. I was in a very bad, very unworkable situation at the time for all parties involved. I look at my parents now and I do not see bad people - even my mother is not a *bad* person per se. She can't help what she is.
Yeah, I still have to deal with the consequences, but that was the crappy crappy hand I was dealt. I grieve for my losses to this day. But I do view it as my life and it is now my job to make it as good as it can be.
I'm still working on making the relationship with my parents workable for me. It's really a process. Forgiveness is a process. Even if my parents had gotten down on their knees and apologized, that work would still need to be done. There is absolutely nothing my parents can do now to alleviate my burden unless they invented a time machine.
It is also my experience that trying to convince someone that they are wrong, only makes them dig their heels in and adopt a defensive stance. It just widens the gap. That's not to say that there isn't merit in the confrontation and being honest with your feelings.
But to be honest, sometimes I'd rather let some things slide and work towards something positive than be absolutely right and stagnate in the negative.
I guess my point is, if I actually have one and this isn't just rambling meaningless drivel, is that I think at this stage, the work is ours to do and not our parents.
Of course, if my father can apologize for some of his recent behaviour - anything, and I mean anything is possible.
Be safe.
Seldom.
Posted by Trotter on January 20, 2009, at 14:39:28
In reply to Re: My so-called family, posted by sassyfrancesca on January 20, 2009, at 9:34:06
Hi Sassyfrancesca,
Thank you so much for sharing your own experiences.
I agree with you that further confrontation on this issue is unlikely to produce genuine remorse. I have brought it up with them on two occasions. The first time they just got angry and wouldn't even talk about it. The second time I went in very angry and the shock of my anger stunned them enough to at least listen to what I had to say, or at least for my father to listen, my mother simply walked out and went to bed. Not emotional, just walked away because she did not want to deal with the situation.
However my father's subsequent letter, after reading the book I sent them, was basically a rejection of my allegations. My mother did not even bother to look at the book.
I believed before the first confrontation, and still believe it now, that the only basis for us to have a meaningful relationship is for them to admit and feel remorse for their past neglect. My strategy was to confront them with the evidence and destroy all their defences until they were forced to confront the reality that they had caused deep suffering in their children, and specifically me. Once they were suffering from guilt and remorse, then it would allow me to feel sorrow for their emotional suffering, intentionally, but justifiably caused by me. We could then pick up the pieces and learn to forgive each other, and have newfound respect and love for each other for making the effort, courage and commitment to go through the heartwrenching process.
That was my strategy. Before I began to the process I did not give myself much chance of success, because I know who they are as people, and felt they were unlikely to get it, or admit it even if they did get it. People's psychological defences can be very strong when faced with unspeakable horror of the truth. It is much more comfortable to live with the lie. However I decided to give it a try because I felt we had no meaningful relationship as it was, so what did I really have to lose?
Now I am faced with the reality that I have twice confronted them with this and failed. I believe my father could possibly be convinced, firstly because he is a rational man, secondly because he genuinely does want to fix the problem, and thirdly, because he is not the one who has done the most emotional damage, so has a much smaller demon to confront.
My mother is an entirely different situation. She is the unloving mother, the one who has emotionally crippled her sons (I appreciate it wasn't intentional, but that doesn't change the fact). She is stubborn, dominates my father, walks away (literally) from any argument when it is not going her way, and has no appreciation of what love and attachment really is. Honestly, she really doesn't. I remember one Xmas, my elder brother rang to say his long term girlfriend would not be coming to the family gathering because they had broken up. My mother thought it was quite amusing that he always had bust-ups at Xmas. You see his ex-wife (different rship) had left him before Xmas on another year. I was horrified that a mother's first emotional reaction on hearing the news was to think it was funny. It said so much about her lack of attachment and concern for her children.
I am in the position now where I need to decide to pursue my strategy of confronting them with the truthin order to achieve remorse and then proceed to forgiveness, or give it up as a hopeless strategy.
So thank you for your sharing post sassyfrancesca, it has helped me reach a decision. I do not believe I have any real prospect of getting any genuine remorse from my mother. She is not interested in improving our relationship, it is not in her nature to admit to any weakness or failing, she is old and set in her ways, the enormity of the guilt she would have to embrace to accept the truth is too big, etc etc. So, like your mother, I think she will continue to deny.
Where to from here for me? I just need to accept that my parents are the way they are and there is nothing I can do about it. I don't see any value in trying to punish them for this, regardless of whether they deserve it. This will only prevent me from forgiving them and delay letting go of my anger. I need to make excuses for them, that they did not intentionally cause me harm, so that I can forgive them, without them being at all involved in the process. My therapist can help with this. Equally, I don't see much value in investing time and effort into improving my relationship with my mother. I will look for love and understanding elsewhere in my life.
So, once more, thank you sassyfrancesca for your post. It really did help. You have been very courageous and successful (as one can be) dealing with your family past and going forward to live productively, and I admire you for that.
Trotter
Posted by Trotter on January 20, 2009, at 14:49:33
In reply to Re: My so-called family » Trotter, posted by seldomseen on January 20, 2009, at 14:03:20
Hi Seldomseen,
Thank you so much for sharing. Sounds like you have had it much worse than me. I agree with most of what you say, and had come to similar conclusions before reading your post - see my reply to SF.
I agree that I need to work on my emotional relationship towards my parents without my parents being involved. Not ideal, but it is reality. Life deals its cards and we must play the hand we are given.
Take care, Trotter
Posted by sassyfrancesca on January 20, 2009, at 15:44:47
In reply to Re: My so-called family, posted by Trotter on January 20, 2009, at 14:39:28
(((Trotter): Thank you sweetie. You definitely understand the dynamics of the whole mess!
My friends have become my family (a t told me that once, but I knew it already).
Family are people who love, honor, affirm and celebrate you........Ive thought about "adopting" a grandparent for myself from a nursing home. They are such lonely, hungry people, you know?
I relate!
I wish you love and when all is said and done....peace with your decisions.
Hugs, Sassy
P.S. My sister and i still laugh over this one. My mother said: "You are just as sensitive as you were in high school; I would have thought you would have gotten over that by now.
Posted by seldomseen on January 21, 2009, at 18:07:41
In reply to Re: My so-called family » seldomseen, posted by Trotter on January 20, 2009, at 14:49:33
I'm sorry, I guess we cross-posted. I didn't mean to come across as "hey I know you said this, but... here it is again!". I literally think we posted very close to the same time.
However, in my mind there is no "worse" or "better" when it comes to abuse, neglect and the like.
It's all bad.
Seldom.
Posted by rskontos on January 22, 2009, at 16:44:38
In reply to My so-called family, posted by Trotter on January 20, 2009, at 2:03:01
Trotter,
I understand exactly what you are going through. In my case, my mother who was very abusive and neglectful is dead so that is that. But my father is still here and still hurtful. I finally with my t's permission confronted him. But as in your case, my father was not receptive to it. Of course it would mean accepting responsibility for actions he did not accept then so why would he now. It got really nasty. My t gave me permission to not have a relationship with him if I so choose. And I so choose. Because in trying to discuss with him our relationship now and then, I found out more stuff that just hurt more. Certainly not needed now. In the end I decided an old dog can't learn new tricks and it is too hurtful for me right now. Maybe down the road in my own recovery I can bear to try again with him but for right now I need my space from him.
I realize he had his reasons for his lack of fathering, but whatever they are, he could have and should have done better. I have and my h have so just because he had a distant mother and father did mean he needed to be the same. NO excuses as I haven't used those same excuses to be the same kind of parent as my parents. You understand. I broke the role models set in front of me, he could have too, he chose not to.
I am trying not to be bitter toward him, I just choose to protect myself right now.
I think it is important to know what you need and do what is right for you when it is the time. And then you can deal with what ever happens. Because like everyone says your parents will be the way they are. Maybe they will see it through your eyes and maybe they won't. You need to be able to handle that.
take care,
rsk
Posted by Trotter on January 27, 2009, at 13:49:42
In reply to My so-called family, posted by Trotter on January 20, 2009, at 2:03:01
For better or for worse I wrote my parents a letter clearly outlining how angry I am with them, the reasons why, and that I want them to show remorse so I can forgive them and let go of my anger. I explained that such a reconciliation could be good for our relationship, and invited them to participate.
Although the content of the letter is confronting, it is nothing really new from what I have hit them with before. Perhaps if they read it several times, and reflect on it, they will be able to deal with their automatic tendency to deny. I am pinning my hopes on their desire to continue to have a relationship with me, and their fear that not agreeing to participate in a reconciliation may risk that.
Regardless of their response, I am totally at peace with having sent the letter. I put a lot of time into it. My therapist said it was a very good letter. I am happy because now I can rest knowing I have honestly given it my best shot. I am strangely relaxed about this. I guess I had already reached the point of giving up on them, so with this last efffort I have nothing to lose.
Trotter
Posted by rskontos on January 27, 2009, at 17:29:37
In reply to Update, posted by Trotter on January 27, 2009, at 13:49:42
Posted by JadeKelly on February 6, 2009, at 0:55:41
In reply to Update, posted by Trotter on January 27, 2009, at 13:49:42
Hi Trotter,
I have experience in this area, and if it were me? I'd be concentrating my time on my brother. If he felt no love from your mother, and has displayed the intentions you descibed, he IS in danger in my opinion. Time for your parents to make their decision, if its not good, move on to your brother who could be in real trouble right now. Please believe me.
~Jade
Posted by Trotter on February 6, 2009, at 1:27:29
In reply to Re: Update, posted by JadeKelly on February 6, 2009, at 0:55:41
Hi JadeKelly,
I agree with you. I guess the reason I'm not too worried at the moment is he is engaged to be married and life seems to be going well for him just now. Nevertheless, you are right. If she dumps him he might not be able to cope. Thanks for the reminder. I should keep more in touch with him.
Trotter
Posted by Trotter on February 11, 2009, at 19:42:52
In reply to My so-called family, posted by Trotter on January 20, 2009, at 2:03:01
Finally received a response to my letter. My father says he is unable to feel remorse and to say he is remorseful would be hypocritical. He says I need to forget the past and deal with my anger. He warned me about psychiatrists who brainwash their patients into believing things that aren't true. He does not want me to contact the family until I have my anger under control and can be nicer toward them.
So predictable really. But I gave them the chance and they blew it. Seems their need to deny was stronger than their love and compassion. What a surprise! After all, it was their lack of love that was the problem to begin with.
Am I disappointed? Yes. Am I surprised? No. Do I regret doing it? No. Has it helped me? Hmm, that's a bit more tricky. The way I feel now it has given me an excuse not to waste my time on them in future. I really don't need them. This may seem a denial from me, but really, I don't. They TAUGHT ME not to love them. I don't love them. This was an effort to make something of nothing. Now I don't have to be hypocritical about our relationship any more. I can just walk away. I don't have to look after them in old age. F*ck them! I will spend my time with people who do care.
You may be thinking I am just having an angry reaction to rejection, and that I will see things differently at some time in the future. Maybe I will, maybe I won't, but this is how I feel right now.
Trotter
Posted by antigua3 on February 12, 2009, at 8:55:13
In reply to Re: My so-called family, posted by Trotter on February 11, 2009, at 19:42:52
I'm sorry your father replied that way, but I'm impressed by your willingness to take that step. It's not easy, but you did it, and hopefully you can find some peace. You gave it your best shot and should be proud of that.
You know that families can be created with a group of people who love and care about you. When our families of origin don't fit anymore, you can create one where you will find the love and support you need.
antigua
Posted by Trotter on February 13, 2009, at 2:25:01
In reply to Re: My so-called family » Trotter, posted by antigua3 on February 12, 2009, at 8:55:13
Thanks for those kind words Antigua3
Posted by antigua3 on February 13, 2009, at 8:54:51
In reply to Re: My so-called family » antigua3, posted by Trotter on February 13, 2009, at 2:25:01
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.