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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 11, 2013, at 1:20:51
i'm feeling very depressed about my thesis. i was reading back through the archives a little the other day, and i think i know why... my advisors are all horrible perfectionists who expect as much from their grad students as they expect from themselves... except of course we simply can't be that good because we haven't been in the game as long... but what we do... reflects on them... is a part of them... and all the perfectionist feelings and struggle... well, you get theirs, too.
i've never had people call honest work (work i'd put an honest amount of time and effort into) sh*t. or just rip it apart like it was a pointless waste of time. or just shrug and go do something else like it was a boring pointless waste of time. or whatever...
and then part of the process is coming to internalize that. internalizing the standard. it isn't so hard to see why one might feel depressed when one only looks at and compares oneself to the very best there is. in my field... people are at their best later in life just before their mind starts to addle. young people... well you haven't been exposed to the billions of different reasons why this and that and the next thing you are going to think of won't work. centuries of people are five steps ahead of you oh yes siree they are.
so... apparently the advice you give depends on the student. some students need to be told that they really need to write *good* stuff and edit their own work etc (because they constantly inundate their supervisory panel with every random raving they have ever thought up. and other students need to be told they really need to just hand the bloody thing in already because it really isn't supposed to be that hard and it really doesn't have to be particularly good. because the world understands that you are just starting out... and all a phd is is a lisence to practice research. give me some money and i'll put in some time and effort and produce something. an article or two or three and a book. or similar. there is precedent.
the standard of completion now is what people were expected to get to when they were coming up for tenure before. just getting an entry level job in the field. it can be done in 3 years if you work hard... but only if your advisor helps you keep your focus and keep you progressing.
i faded out. too scared to show anybody anything. only got negative feedback for work i'd done. never got 'send it off' (to a journal) for stuff that (in hindsight) should have been sent (would need major updating now). nobody will do it for you... you have to stand up and fight for it.
trouble is... i just needed people to tell me that it was worth my standing up and fighting for it. i don't know. i didn't need to hear that i was amazing or anything like that. just that i didn't suck. just not to hear that i sucked. something encouraging. now and then. well i suppose we got it now and then (drunken - of course you are good you wouldn't be here if you weren't). didn't quite seem to count...
i guess i'm supposed to be independent and not high maintenence. but surely... isn't it about the handover to the journal editors? oh... i guess editors typically tell people they suck, too (over 95% rejection rate).
all the bolshy undergrads sending their essay on descartes. or actually more phd student sending their coursework...
some people need to be told to stop and others need to be told to start.
blech.
i have to apply for an extension. by saturday at the latest (before or on the expiration date). the more i put it off... the less appropriate it seems for me to send my advisor my stuff and figure out stuff to say to ask him to support my extension.
if it isn't approved...
game over.
and there it is.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 11, 2013, at 1:27:51
In reply to hoplelessness, posted by alexandra_k on July 11, 2013, at 1:20:51
because it is sh*t, you see. and i have no earthly idea what i'm going to say in the middle bits. but of course i can't say that...
i'm going to do his stuff. which is of course what i'm supposed to have done all along. applied his stuff to something a bit new as best i can... then he gets to beat me over the head with how i've misunderstood him or that that extension won't work for this or that reason but this one over here might...
and then people want to hire me because i can be helpful for them insofar as i've got a bit more of a channel into his way of thinking (on certain areas or whatever) which matters for various things including prospective publications in his journal.
sigh.
but i picked the absent ones, oh yes, i did.
i didn't need them to be present, to be fair.
'good, good, keep going'
just a little bit more of that.
and not just me. he's notorious, apparently.
and i guess this is all just part of why finishing means something.
things are changing now... partly university support structures... partly academic culture. apparently students now are getting out of doing yearly seminars because they are perceived as 'too stressful / demanding / scary'. sucked it up and did them we were made to... but many people left, it is true.
i'm not sure what i think.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 11, 2013, at 1:36:58
In reply to Re: hoplelessness, posted by alexandra_k on July 11, 2013, at 1:27:51
if you can handle yourself there you can handle yourself anywhere, that is what i think.
except tech.
where it isn't about the pursuit of learning or knowledge at all.
but of course they finish in 3 years because they are walked through it step by step.
the list of things to do, the ticking the things off of the list, the regular sending stuff so there is regular accountability...
i just fell off the radar for 2 years. and nobody noticed.
i think they are partly feeling guilty about that... they helped me (financially) to get out of the country (got myself into trouble after my scholarship ran out). but that was shameful... i'd all but vanished... then showed up to conference end of last year... then worked over the summer... then put in an application for extension... 15 weeks ago.
and now it is time: progress report.
and i guess i need to stand up for it because nobody else will.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 11, 2013, at 1:48:33
In reply to Re: hoplelessness, posted by alexandra_k on July 11, 2013, at 1:36:58
i am an avoider, it is true. it is hard to send stuff because then i have to face the inevitable negative feedback. but then it is hard to write stuff because then i have to send what i've written.
apparently it is about support structures. other people have supportive people around them. their partner, their friends, their parents, their flatmates, whoever. other people who can commiserate about their their day (that their boss is being demanding) and help keep them focused on the end.
i didn't have those supports.
other people have people who can financially support them when their scholarship runs out. they can go live with their folks and do the writing up from their with their mother's home cooked meals. it helps people get done... gives them that final push. and... only parents or partners can probably put up with one when one is going through the end of the writing up...
so then the supervisors don't need to worry about pesky things like whether the student can afford to spend another 6 months writing up those revisions or whether the student will be evicted because they are out of money. so then the supervisors don't need to worry about whether they can attend major international conferences or other networking opportunities without financial support (there is financial support, but of course that runs out, too).
oh. it does take heavy investment to raise a philosopher.
i get it now. why it is a luxury thing... it isn't (just) about 'don't do it if you want to be rich' it is more about 'don't do it unless you are wealthy'. because... there really isn't any guarantee that you will get a job at all... if you don't keep up your international networking you will fall off the radar... if you get a job it might be for only 1 year and you need to relocate to the other side of the globe...
i guess people did say... i just... oblivious, i guess.
Posted by baseball55 on July 11, 2013, at 20:37:21
In reply to Re: hoplelessness, posted by alexandra_k on July 11, 2013, at 1:48:33
What field are you in? Philosophy?
Posted by Dinah on July 11, 2013, at 21:23:26
In reply to hoplelessness, posted by alexandra_k on July 11, 2013, at 1:20:51
I know nothing about theses, but plenty about avoidance. However, the only advice I could give would be hypocritical, since I can't seem to manage my own avoidance *at all*. Even knowing that it makes matters worse.
I do, however, find that if I want to avoid avoidance at all, I need to take a Risperdal to ease my anxiety. A lot of my avoidance is due to anxiety. What do you do to manage anxiety, other than avoid?
What do you need to do to apply for the extension? Can you break it down into smaller pieces?
Posted by alexandra_k on July 11, 2013, at 22:13:38
In reply to Re: hoplelessness, posted by baseball55 on July 11, 2013, at 20:37:21
yes, philosophy.
aaaaah, philosophy.
or:
aaaargh, philosophy.
depending.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 11, 2013, at 22:31:02
In reply to Re: hoplelessness » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on July 11, 2013, at 21:23:26
> I know nothing about theses, but plenty about avoidance. However, the only advice I could give would be hypocritical, since I can't seem to manage my own avoidance *at all*. Even knowing that it makes matters worse.
>
> I do, however, find that if I want to avoid avoidance at all, I need to take a Risperdal to ease my anxiety. A lot of my avoidance is due to anxiety. What do you do to manage anxiety, other than avoid?
>
> What do you need to do to apply for the extension? Can you break it down into smaller pieces?
>i am getting it done.
i think you are onto something with respect to anxiety management. i think posting the stuff here helped with that, a bit.
partly... it is about trust. my supervisor says that, even. if you really want to do it... then you need to trust that things will work out okay. the story goes (i'm not even actually sure if the story is true at this point, i'm too scared to ask him in case it is not true) that he didn't get a job for 11 years. just got teaching assistant (one semester contracts) here and there... it took 11 years before he got a proper job as a philosopher.
and so... he doesn't have much time for people who can't stick out a crappy season or two. i also... heard that just the other day he (finally!) got a major research grant that he has been missing out on over the past few years. at a time when the economy is particularly bad re: research funding, too. hopefully that puts him in a good mood...
for me... i think it is about thinking of success as formulaic.
most people have theories as to why they failed to make the profession work for them. they complain about how nobody will ever read their thesis (well, how many alive people did you read and cite so what do you expect?). they complain about how nobody cares about what they are working on (well, how many peoples work did you express an interest in?) most people complain about how everybody is stupid (why act surprised when people treat your work like it is stupid?) and so on...
my supervisor wrote a book. this is hard to describe / explain... but for me... it describes / explains his relative absence (to his family - including his academic family). the book is about... well... that doesn't matter... engaging in a little interpretation... the book is about... us. the community. how people are raised and encultured into the community. anybody who wants to can be part of it, but harder if you aren't located there... the book... was stuff he had been intensively working on since 2006 and i'd been located where he was for about half the year of most years since then... gone to the seminars he'd gone to... and listening to what other people were working on... seeing aspects of us all. influences on him...
he says that it isn't about standing on the shoulders of a giant... rather, it is about standing on the shoulders of countless ordinary folk each of whom is doing their very best to contribute to something.
i see me in there.
i see work i should have done years ago... but i was too busy being all 'its too hard, i can't do it, i don't want to do it' and i insisted on going off to independently forage so it's my own fault i got lost. the prodigal has returned. perhaps. we'll see. i f*ck*d up many opportunities (i see the sense in a variety of things now including the value of peer review as potential collaboration and book reviews as service to profession and indicating willingness to contribute to the area - potential collaboration, again)...
i feel like... i understand things sufficiently.
only... of course i still don't. because if i did... i'd be done ahahahahahah.
i suspect... my next lesson is in how when I think i'm finished... when i think i've done the final thing... that means there is only 6 months of revisions ahead of me. i think that will be the next lesson.
___
sorry... processing things processing...
this extension is just a ticking the box extension. it is because it is precisely half way through the year and they are checking in what i'm up to. i was meant to be starting physiotherapy next week, you see. instead i will be applying for an extension to finish my thesis.
but...
i want to try and get my supervisor actually interested in that murky bit in the middle. not that he will do it for me, exactly... well... he can either okay my best effort or he can help me fix it it is up to him. it is something he cares about getting right, though. at least... that is what i need to try and do.
if he thinks i'm too hopeless he'll probably just cut me.
but i don't know if he can at this stage since i'm actually jumping up and down all excited about his book.
which makes me kind of cute and cuddly and hard to resist.
?
Posted by alexandra_k on July 11, 2013, at 23:21:26
In reply to Re: hoplelessness, posted by alexandra_k on July 11, 2013, at 22:31:02
i need to figure...
there should be a story that sets me up for a sustainable future...
maybe i'll find it sometime before retirement lol.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 12, 2013, at 3:34:34
In reply to Re: hoplelessness, posted by alexandra_k on July 11, 2013, at 23:21:26
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20051203/msgs/588796.html
i just found this...
wow.
i just found this *after* completing my *last ever* request for extension. proposed submission date: 13/12/13. exactly 8 years to the day.
(actually, it would have taken them a couple days to bind it and then i would have needed to deliver it, so things aren't exact, but close enough).
with the last one it made a huge difference just knowing what my next move was going to be: PhD.
this time around... i'm going to have to assume a number of things (that in the back of my mind could well be false, and i shouldn't develop expectations, and i shouldn't get my hopes up). i will assume that i will get into medicine on the basis of my study next year. but only if i actually complete my PhD this year. so... there is the motivation. and of course studying medicine will be wonderful. academically everything i'd ever hoped for etc etc etc. we don't at all need to do prostate exams and stuff with each other (do we? i don't want to know). sigh.
sorry i'm hogging the boards (again). i really need to figure something...
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 12, 2013, at 10:36:01
In reply to Re: hoplelessness, posted by alexandra_k on July 12, 2013, at 3:34:34
> and of course studying medicine will be wonderful. academically everything i'd ever hoped for etc etc etc. we don't at all need to do prostate exams and stuff with each other (do we? i don't want to know). sigh.
Don't worry, you don't have a prostate. :-)
Bob
Posted by Emme_V2 on July 14, 2013, at 7:44:30
In reply to Re: hoplelessness, posted by alexandra_k on July 11, 2013, at 22:31:02
Hi. A few random thoughts from a sleep-deprived brain here.
This is a funny anecdote. When I first arrived for grad school, I saw that one of my advisor's other students had on his desk a framed draft of an abstract for a conference. The guy had written the abstract and my advisor had marked the thing up to the point where any white space on the page was filled with arrows and scribblings. I knew right then what to expect from my advisor in terms of being critical. I have to admit working for him was tough on my psyche. We all got through somehow.
I think one way to think of your dissertation is that it will buy you your union card so to speak. Of course you want it to be good. But it doesn't have to be your magnum opus. It is a well-done piece of scholarly activity that opens up the door to certain types of jobs where you can do the work you want to do to make a contribution to your field (or maybe even some other allied field you migrate to) over the course of your career. It's part of the path.
Finishing up grad school and thinking about next steps can be very anxiety provoking. Breathe and keep you eye on the prize (signed title page). Good luck.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 16, 2013, at 2:06:47
In reply to Re: hoplefulness, posted by Dr. Bob on July 12, 2013, at 10:36:01
> Don't worry, you don't have a prostate. :-)Thanks.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 16, 2013, at 2:27:29
In reply to Re: hoplelessness » alexandra_k, posted by Emme_V2 on July 14, 2013, at 7:44:30
> I think one way to think of your dissertation is that it will buy you your union card so to speak. Of course you want it to be good. But it doesn't have to be your magnum opus. It is a well-done piece of scholarly activity that opens up the door to certain types of jobs where you can do the work you want to do to make a contribution to your field (or maybe even some other allied field you migrate to) over the course of your career. It's part of the path.
I think you offer some really good advice, there. That is indeed how I'm trying to think of it. I just want to have something sensible to contribute. That is all. That is enough. That is... Well, that is hard enough, really. It is so very much easier to critique... So very much harder to contribute positively...
My application is getting shifted around and through the appropriate channels... Of course I should have initiated this a week ago, but whatever, whatever it is what it is now. My supervisor is currently overseas / busy so he won't get to say anything (in support or against the idea) for over a week...
Admin has informed me that we have oral defense now, and suggested a date 3 months prior to my proposed submission to allow me to make alterations.
I'm not entirely sure what this is about... We never used to have this because it was too hard getting examiners to fly from the northern hemisphere... I mean, it was externally examined by 2 - and sometimes it was thought we were disadvantaged by needing to suck up examiner 'suggestions' instead of getting the opportunity to verbally defend what we had done... Maybe this oral defense is just a department seminar... Which are bad enough, don't get me wrong (okay to rip apart without many positive suggestions for those). I hear the kids these days don't have to do them because they find them 'too intimidating' but they are made to before they hit the job market (as they bloody well should be)...
That being said... Don't think I gave one after my 6 month review got ripped apart... By my supervisor. And one of the other academics said he tried to convince my supervisor I'd done well, really... Aargh.
Please please please please please fly me back... Only (of course) they won't. So it will have to be Skype, or something. :-(
Posted by alexandra_k on July 16, 2013, at 2:33:44
In reply to Re: hoplelessness » Emme_V2, posted by alexandra_k on July 16, 2013, at 2:27:29
Hmm... It gives me one month to get a good draft and give it to my supervisor.
So he can rip it apart for one month.
So then what I give (two months in) might not get publically annihilated by him.
Which means if some other bastard attempts to then worst case he will help me.
Which means I won't have to make too(oooooooo) many changes to it...
Which means after 3 months of changes...
I should actually be allowed to submit.
Eep!
And then in 3 or 6 months (probably around the time of the first major assessment next year)
I'll get contacted by my external examiners...
Who will require major changes and resubmission for further assessment.
:-(
Right of f*ck*ng passage, alright...
If I ever become an academic... My students are going to suffer similarly, oh yes indeedie they are (I jest).
Posted by alexandra_k on July 16, 2013, at 2:39:29
In reply to Re: hoplelessness, posted by alexandra_k on July 16, 2013, at 2:33:44
and of course...
this process makes the end product a damned sight better than it would have been otherwise.
which is of course... why they do it.
This is the end of the thread.
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