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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Toph on March 24, 2005, at 9:10:59
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. (possible trigger) » Toph, posted by Dinah on March 23, 2005, at 23:02:33
I am so impressed with your courage and openness about something so personal, Dinah. I think that many couples struggle with the changes that occur in a relationship, particularly how sex and intimacy intertwine or unravels. There's the act, and the act as an expression of love. It's nice when they occur simulateously, but often they are separate. In the beginning of a relationship both experiences, sex and love, are so intense that I think we assume that they are mutual and related in a way that is not always sustainable over time. The love that has developed between my wife and I has deepened since we first became a couple, though the passion has become considerably more episodic. I wish you the best.
Toph
Posted by TofuEmmy on March 29, 2005, at 12:29:04
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. (possible trigger) » Toph, posted by Dinah on March 23, 2005, at 23:02:33
Dinah - If anyone tried to have sex with me at this point in my life, I would most definately barf on them. So, maybe you could try that technique? It might stave off future advances?
Firm handshake,
emmy
Posted by Spriggy on April 5, 2005, at 11:28:17
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. (possible trigger) » Dinah, posted by TofuEmmy on March 29, 2005, at 12:29:04
I've been married almost 7 years and although I have nothing but admiration, respect, and love for my husband since I began this "depression/anxiety" phase of my life, my libido/ desire is TOTALLY gone.
BUT, I realize something with my husband... it's not just a "physical" need for him. It really is an emotional/connection for him to me.
I think of it this way:
Women need to be close to have sex,
men HAVE sex to feel close.My husband is very sensitive and has been very caring/compassionate to me during this time and has often put his sexual needs aside. BUT, there are times when it is just something HE has to have; like food or water (for my man at least!).
I try to think of it as his way of connecting with me and feeling LOVED BY me. I feel his love by the way he hugs me, affirms me with his words, helps out around the house.. REally and truly, the one way he responds to my love for him, is through intimacy.
SOOO... without being too specific (wink), when there are times he has his needs but I don't feel up to it- I just use "other" methods without intercourse to allow him to feel that connection.
If you need more details, you can babblemail me or call 1-800-hotmomma. LOL
Just know I get where you are it.. I understand it's a tough thing to overcome. I've had a life long issue with overcoming sexual abuse and past very unhealthy sexual relationships (from my teen years). It's not something that happens overnight.
It's a battle I fight sometimes daily, but I believe it's a battle that can be won.
((HUGS)) (but don't worry-- no kisses!). *wink
Posted by Dinah on April 6, 2005, at 19:42:18
In reply to Dinah, posted by Spriggy on April 5, 2005, at 11:28:17
That's what my therapist suggested, and it seems to be working, at least short term. He also suggested that I keep my lips unavailable. :)
I of course want to do everything I should as a good wife, and to help my husband feel loved and connected with me. I did avoidance most of our courtship, and explicitly promised I wouldn't once we were married. I stick pretty well to that promise. I don't think he has much of a clue, other than pain which I can't hide. He even comments on my eagerness.
Posted by Dinah on April 6, 2005, at 19:43:03
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. (possible trigger) » Dinah, posted by TofuEmmy on March 29, 2005, at 12:29:04
Unfortunately, that would involve my *other* phobia. :)
Posted by Tamar on April 13, 2005, at 20:38:35
In reply to Sex again. Sigh., posted by Dinah on March 22, 2005, at 18:30:05
Dinah, I realise I’m coming late to this post, but I’ve had some similar problems and I was touched by your words.
Several things occurred to me:
Do you find your husband physically attractive? Do you look at him and find him appealing? If so, then perhaps things could become easier for you. If not, have you *ever* found him attractive, and can you imagine feeling attracted to him? I think it would be difficult to find a solution if you just don’t find him at all attractive.
Moreover, it’s not just your husband who is living with the consequences of your aversion to sex. You’re also living with the consequences. It causes you anxiety, and you don’t get the enjoyment that other people get from sex with a partner. You may not feel you’re missing out, but nevertheless you do express concern for the state of your marriage. Marriage tends to be characterised as an institution in which both parties can find pleasure in each other’s bodies.
I have no memory of any sexual abuse in my childhood, but I have a lot of the symptoms, including an aversion to sex, kissing, touching and so on. I found that the advice given to survivors of CSA was helpful to me, even though I don’t identify myself as a victim/survivor of CSA. However, I suspect that my aversion was not as extensive as yours.
However, the bottom line for me (i.e. the thing that made sex possible and even enjoyable) was communication with my husband, and I sense that you are reluctant to tell your husband the truth about how you feel about sex. I suppose at this point your husband might think that your whole history as a couple was based on an untruth. On the other hand, I can’t imagine how you might begin to feel comfortable with his touch unless he understands what is at stake for you. My husband absolutely had to understand why I was dodging his kisses in order to help me to feel safe (even though I don’t even know why I needed to feel safe).
I wonder if you are looking for a solution that would make sexual contact more comfortable for you without admitting to your husband how you really feel. Maybe it would be more profitable to find ways of communicating your aversion without making it seem like your husband’s fault. However, I know that’s a big risk to take.
Does all this make any sense? If I’m out of line I humbly apologise.
Tamar
Posted by Susan47 on April 17, 2005, at 13:18:47
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. » Dinah, posted by Tamar on April 13, 2005, at 20:38:35
Reading what you posted made me feel really incredible, because it's so true of me. I've never been sexually attracted to any man I could have, ever .. is this where it comes from? Because I know many many women who feel this way .. and my worst fear is the man I'm most attracted to now, if he ever approached me, I would draw away, maybe not immediately, but maybe I would find out there's nothing really there, that I'm incapable of being sexually attracted to anyone, really and truly, ever again. Sigh. This is a hell of a thing to have to live with. Because there're guys who are sexually attracted to me, but I don't want them. Not completely. Not even to chance to risk of going for a walk with any of them. Because they always seem to go silly so fast. It's amazing to watch a guy you liked having a rapport with kind of get silly and moony, and you're just like, oh no. Oh no oh no oh no oh no. So then the ones who Don't do that, the ones who're stiff and cold, they're super attractive .. or not. Lately, they're really not. Wow, hmm. My last husband was not attractive to me at all, not one bit, physically. And in the end when he touched me, I hated it.
Posted by Tamar on April 18, 2005, at 5:12:06
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. » Tamar, posted by Susan47 on April 17, 2005, at 13:18:47
Hi Susan,
Yeah, I know what you mean. And I’ve read that it’s common for people who’ve had traumatic experiences to have problems sexually with their partners, but no problem with strangers. I don’t know if that applies to you, but I think it makes sense in general. There’s something about the familiarity of sexual contact that feels uncomfortable and distressing, whereas unfamiliarity is more likely to be free of unpleasant associations.
However, I’m married; I want to be a sexually fulfilled woman, and I want my husband to be part of that. It’s a constant struggle for me. But I tend to think that half the problem with finding men attractive is about my attitude to myself. I need to feel I deserve it. At the moment I feel as if I owe it to myself to find sexual pleasure with my husband, so it’s worth it to me to keep trying.
Tamar
Posted by Susan47 on April 18, 2005, at 9:19:01
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. » Susan47, posted by Tamar on April 18, 2005, at 5:12:06
That you said about familiarity of sexual contact being distressing, that's true for me. Because I want my body to please, but I'm not sure it does, not at all, and that's not even supposed to be an issue. I can't go to bed with someone who's unfamiliar to me, either, that's even more uncomfortable. And immensely unsatisfying. I learned that in my younger years. I think for men and women both there's a lot more to sex than just getting off. I was doing some reading last night and suddenly remembered this man I was with, I remember, through my reading, because my mind seems to have blocked it out without a stimulus, but I remembered that he gave me my one and only orgasm with a man, and I remember that he was very attentive, very much so, very caring, it was almost like he put a spell on me, a spell wherein I felt completely safe, completely cared for, in my body yet out of it at the same time, and it was incredible, it really was like a spell. There was so much trust. And something awful, really terrible happened to this relationship. Very quickly after that things went very very bad. And he turned out to be selfish and mean... so is there hope that I can ever sustain something like that IRL again? I don't know.
Posted by Susan47 on April 18, 2005, at 9:20:15
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. » Susan47, posted by Tamar on April 18, 2005, at 5:12:06
Maybe you can your husband can work on that spell thing happening. I can find it for you if you want a description. It's very amazing, what can happen between two people when you create this.
Posted by Dinah on April 19, 2005, at 23:31:52
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. » Dinah, posted by Tamar on April 13, 2005, at 20:38:35
If I were to describe my "type" I'd pretty much describe my husband. Blonde, crinkly blue eyes, long fingers, gold arm hair curling over the watch band. He just gets better with age. He's much more attractive now than he was in high school.
He's got a lot of the personality qualities I find sexy too. Integrity, wit, intelligence. He used to use his humor a lot more often than he does now, but he's still a funny guy.
I will say that our marriage functions best with the communications kept at a relatively polite level. When we delve deep, we tend to get in trouble. Because despite our similarities, which tend to be glaring, we have some fundamental differences in emotional styles that would be a problem if we looked closely enough at them.
So I don't think being too honest is a good option for us. My therapist thinks that's sad. I'm not so sure.
Posted by Dinah on April 19, 2005, at 23:43:37
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. » Tamar, posted by Dinah on April 19, 2005, at 23:31:52
I'll readily agree that the emotional differences contribute to the problem.
Not that I'd have any less of a problem with the physical aspect of sex, I think that's so deeply ingrained I just as well consider it hard wired.
But I think if my feelings about my husband were unconflicted, the greater degree of love and desire to give would make the entire experience more tolerable.
I feel horrible saying that. He's a really good man. He provides for us well. He's a hands on father. He does whatever he can to make sure that things run smoothly for me.
He's really terrific.
But he can make me feel so very bad about myself so very often. Like water on rock. How can I love everything about him but the way he makes me and my son feel about ourselves? Which is something he grasps periodically but promptly puts out of his mind and refuses to change. Because it's more important to him to make sure we behave ourselves in the way he wishes us to behave than it is...
Oh well. He's as hard on himself as he is on us, and I reap many rewards from that aspect of it.
I'm very lucky to have him, and I could never make it without him, on any level.
Posted by Tamar on April 20, 2005, at 5:52:06
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. » Tamar, posted by Susan47 on April 18, 2005, at 9:19:01
> That you said about familiarity of sexual contact being distressing, that's true for me. Because I want my body to please, but I'm not sure it does, not at all, and that's not even supposed to be an issue. I can't go to bed with someone who's unfamiliar to me, either, that's even more uncomfortable. And immensely unsatisfying. I learned that in my younger years. I think for men and women both there's a lot more to sex than just getting off. I was doing some reading last night and suddenly remembered this man I was with, I remember, through my reading, because my mind seems to have blocked it out without a stimulus, but I remembered that he gave me my one and only orgasm with a man, and I remember that he was very attentive, very much so, very caring, it was almost like he put a spell on me, a spell wherein I felt completely safe, completely cared for, in my body yet out of it at the same time, and it was incredible, it really was like a spell. There was so much trust. And something awful, really terrible happened to this relationship. Very quickly after that things went very very bad. And he turned out to be selfish and mean... so is there hope that I can ever sustain something like that IRL again? I don't know.
Well, I suppose you know that it is possible to have an orgasm with a man. That seems worth knowing! And not only that, but trust as well. Maybe there has to be trust for the orgasm thing to work, but trust alone isn't the key. You mentioned safety and I think that's very important too. It's all so incredibly complicated!
Posted by Tamar on April 20, 2005, at 5:56:22
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. » Tamar, posted by Dinah on April 19, 2005, at 23:31:52
> If I were to describe my "type" I'd pretty much describe my husband. Blonde, crinkly blue eyes, long fingers, gold arm hair curling over the watch band. He just gets better with age. He's much more attractive now than he was in high school.
Well, that’s a good start!
> He's got a lot of the personality qualities I find sexy too. Integrity, wit, intelligence. He used to use his humor a lot more often than he does now, but he's still a funny guy.
Also a good sign, I reckon.
> I will say that our marriage functions best with the communications kept at a relatively polite level. When we delve deep, we tend to get in trouble. Because despite our similarities, which tend to be glaring, we have some fundamental differences in emotional styles that would be a problem if we looked closely enough at them.
And you’ve lived with these differences for some years. So you’re used to it.
> So I don't think being too honest is a good option for us. My therapist thinks that's sad. I'm not so sure.
Well, there’s no point making life too difficult. But then again, there is this one area that you seem to feel isn’t ideal, and if talking honestly about it isn’t possible, then it looks as if you need a one-person solution to a two-person problem. And that’s difficult, though probably not impossible. It does mean, though, that you have to do all the work and he gets a sizeable portion of the reward. However, you’re clearly a generous person, so I’m guessing you wouldn’t resent that.
When you described the physical problems with sex as hard wired, it really struck a chord with me. I don’t think my aversion ever went as deep as the aversion you describe, but it did feel hard wired.
I could tell you some of the techniques that worked for me – I dunno if they’d work for you. And I should say that my sex life isn’t perfect, but it used to be awful and now it’s enjoyable, so that makes a great deal of difference to my marriage. If you think hearing my story could be helpful I’d happily share it.
Tamar
Posted by Susan47 on April 20, 2005, at 10:54:30
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. » Dinah, posted by Tamar on April 20, 2005, at 5:56:22
Wow. I picked up on what you said about your similarities being glaring. I don't think that's the way people would usually describe their similarities?
Posted by annierose on April 21, 2005, at 20:02:59
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. » Dinah, posted by Tamar on April 20, 2005, at 5:56:22
Tamar and Dinah -
I can relate to both of your stories. I am conflicted re:sex too. On the one hand, I do enjoy sex, but I have an aversion to it as well. We do not have sex as often as my husband would like, and I have a difficult time agreeing to it, even though, on one level, I do like it.I just don't get why I'm so conflicted. No CSA of any kind. I really wish my longing for sex = my desire to actual have it. At best, I talk myself into it and once it's underway, I'm usually okay enough to enjoy it. In fact, there's this wildness in me that my husband would be so suprised to discover, but she is fairly well hidden right now.
I have talked about this in therapy. Interesting enough, I told her my conflicted feelings are similar to therapy. I like going to therapy, but once I'm there, it's painful and I'm irritated. But I wish I could enjoy the experience more. Does that make sense?
After reading this thread, I realize I haven't brought sex up recently in therapy, and maybe we should revisit the topic. Sometimes it makes it worse. Those icky feelings being brought to the surface don't go away, even with a glass of wine. My husband loves to kiss me in the morning and wrap his arms around me all the time, and I recoil inside myself (he is fairly unaware).
Thanks for sharing.
If you feel like sharing your story Tamar, I would like to read it. Thank you
-Annierose
Posted by Dinah on April 21, 2005, at 20:48:56
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. » Dinah, posted by Tamar on April 20, 2005, at 5:56:22
If you wouldn't mind sharing your story, I would appreciate it.
I have to admit to a lot of conflictedness regarding solving the problem. Conflictedness that really gets in the way of my doing anything about it.
Posted by Tamar on April 25, 2005, at 13:18:11
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. » Tamar, posted by Dinah on April 21, 2005, at 20:48:56
Hi Dinah,
So this is my story. I don’t know if it will be helpful to you, but it worked for me.
Here goes (blush blush):
The first thing I had to do was decide that I wanted to enjoy sex with my husband. I had to decide that I wanted it both for me and for him, and for our marriage in general. That was a hard decision because it had consequences.
Then I spent some time thinking about what it would be like if I enjoyed sexual contact. That was weird. I wrote it all down. I wrote how I imagined him touching me, and I wrote how I would feel if I enjoyed it. I had to start small. I had to start by writing about him hugging me and feeling desire for him in response. And I worked up from there to more intimate touch. That was also hard because I felt inclined to write about the reality (discomfort) rather than the fantasy (pleasure). Sometimes I couldn’t face it. It took weeks. But in the end I had a sex fantasy about my husband. I could imagine enjoying intimate contact.
Then I talked to him about how I felt, and that made the next step go fairly quickly, but if you can’t talk to your husband about it at least you can go on thinking about it yourself. And maybe talking with your T?
Then, when we were intimate I tried to understand exactly what I was feeling. I had thought originally that it was all about shame, but I realised there was also embarrassment and disgust and feeling like a child. Again, I had to start cautiously. I had to be sure I could move from feeling the feelings into protective dissociation. I don’t know if that’s a good idea, but it worked for me. At first I could only feel my feelings for a few seconds before everything felt too awful and I had to pretend I was somewhere else, or stop what was happening. And then the next day I’d write down what I’d felt and how awful it was. Eventually I could feel things for longer. I didn’t need to explore the origin of my feelings; I just needed to acknowledge them.
After a while I could identify the different feelings, and then it was possible for me to challenge them. I could think to myself, “I feel embarrassed at being touched. But my body was designed to feel pleasure. Lots of people feel pleasure doing this; there’s no need to feel embarrassed.” If I felt like a child, I could think to myself, “I’m an adult with a sexually mature body fulfilling an adult need.” If I felt sinful I could think, “I’m a married woman in bed with my husband and I’m allowed to enjoy it.” And so on. Basically I had to talk myself through the whole experience.
Eventually (and it took a long time) things got better. It was hard work: at times I felt I just wanted to give up because it was so hard. But it was worth it. There are times now when I don’t have to talk myself through sex at all. There are other occasions when I have to stop several times because it feels horrible, but I can return to the pleasure fairly quickly. It has made an immense difference to my marriage in general; not just to the sex but to everything.
I realise what I’ve written reads a little like a program, but I don’t think it needs to be quite so regimented. I hope at least some of it is useful to you.
Tamar
Posted by TofuEmmy on April 25, 2005, at 19:43:36
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. (**somewhat graphic**) » Dinah, posted by Tamar on April 25, 2005, at 13:18:11
Thank you so much for sharing. I'd bet you've helped a lot more women than you'd ever imagine.
Your generous openness is an offering to many.
emmy
Posted by littleone on April 25, 2005, at 20:58:14
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. (**somewhat graphic**) » Dinah, posted by Tamar on April 25, 2005, at 13:18:11
Thank you so much for that Tamar. It was really helpful.
Posted by Dinah on April 26, 2005, at 18:05:09
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. (**somewhat graphic**) » Dinah, posted by Tamar on April 25, 2005, at 13:18:11
Thank you Tamar. It was very generous of you to share something so intimate.
I am going to save your post, because I think it's a very important one. And I'll keep it in the back of my mind as I work on step one. Because to truly want to enjoy sex would be a very big first step for me. My therapist and I were sort of talking about this. I don't think I told him, but I was thinking to me that trying to enjoy sex *feels* like I'm participating in violating myself. I know that's not true. But I have to get over that feeling somehow. And I'm not sure how much I want my therapist to participate in that process because I'm sure to resent him for participating in my violation as well.
Sigh.
I have a long way to go.
I don't think it was too regimented at all. A big campaign needs a plan. Just going with the flow sure wouldn't work for me.
You also show your generosity by working so hard to give your husband the pleasure of wanting him. That is such a beautiful thing. I honor you for that.
Posted by annierose on April 26, 2005, at 19:12:37
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. (**somewhat graphic**) » Dinah, posted by Tamar on April 25, 2005, at 13:18:11
Thank you Tamar -
That was so brave of you. Thank you for sharing. I understand all of your steps, they make perfect sense. Did you figure this out on your own? or did you work on them with your T?
I talked about sex today in therapy. She made an interesting obversation. In general, I flinch when I am touched. And she said, when you come to therapy, it is like being touched. And for me, it is. I can't explain it.
But I don't know how to work on this in my marriage. Your post gives me something to think about, and a starting point.
Annierose
Posted by Tamar on April 27, 2005, at 12:52:29
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. (**somewhat graphic**) » Tamar, posted by Dinah on April 26, 2005, at 18:05:09
> I was thinking to me that trying to enjoy sex *feels* like I'm participating in violating myself. I know that's not true. But I have to get over that feeling somehow. And I'm not sure how much I want my therapist to participate in that process because I'm sure to resent him for participating in my violation as well.Yes, that makes sense. Would it be possible to talk about that feeling very theoretically with your T, before you actually start trying to enjoy sex? I think his role in it would be crucial since you don’t want to talk to your husband.
> I have a long way to go.
One step at a time. If and when you want to. You don’t have to do anything you don’t want to do. However, the courage you’ve shown in posting about it and thinking about it is already progress, isn’t it?
I saw your post about sexual anorexia and it sounds like an interesting theory, although when I read further online I was a little unconvinced by the idea of a twelve step approach. Mind you, I haven’t read any detail, so maybe it will be helpful. I hope so.
Posted by Tamar on April 27, 2005, at 16:19:35
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. (**somewhat graphic**) » Tamar, posted by annierose on April 26, 2005, at 19:12:37
> I understand all of your steps, they make perfect sense. Did you figure this out on your own? or did you work on them with your T?
I found it very difficult to talk to my T about it, so I pretty much figured it out on my own but I talked very generally about it with him. I didn’t exactly go through my plan with him, but we talked most weeks about how sex was going, and the work I did in therapy helped me to adjust things in my bedroom!
> I talked about sex today in therapy. She made an interesting obversation. In general, I flinch when I am touched. And she said, when you come to therapy, it is like being touched. And for me, it is. I can't explain it.
That is interesting. Does therapy reach the same vulnerabilities or triggers that physical touch reaches?
> But I don't know how to work on this in my marriage. Your post gives me something to think about, and a starting point.I think if you can keep talking about it to your T it should help a lot. It’s difficult but the rewards are worth it.
Tamar
Posted by Dinah on April 27, 2005, at 18:07:54
In reply to Re: Sex again. Sigh. (**somewhat graphic**) » Dinah, posted by Tamar on April 27, 2005, at 12:52:29
I dug up the "Sexual Anorexia" book today and read a bit. I am extremely unconvinced that it has anything at all to do with my own problems, as I don't come anywhere near meeting most of the criteria. It's just that I really really meet those criteria I do meet. :)
I think I'll talk to my therapist about it, and about my fears that I would resent him.
He's been doing some sex therapy training lately and yesterday I found myself saying to him that I'd rather it be him than some stranger if I ever went into therapy for sexual difficulties. Then I thought to myself "No, that's probably not true" but didn't bother to tell him. I probably should.
Baby steps. :)
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