![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Hannah on November 9, 2000, at 18:37:10
This is a really moving and hopeful article some of you might like to read
http://www.pilot.infi.net/~susanf/emotabus.htm
Here's a quote
"Emotional abuse threatens to become a national illness. The popularity of nasty, mean-spirited, personal-attack cruelty that passes for "entertainment" is but one example. "
Always remember that just because people choose to ridicule you and reject you if you complain, it doesn't make them right. And if you take a chance and stand up for yourself or someone else who is being mistreated and it brings on more ridicule and rejection it doesn't make it right.
And if they say Oh we were just kidding you weren't hurt and you were hurt, being dismissed doesn't change that.And if you take a stand it is a victory. Maybe not for yourself but for the truth and for all the people who are ridiculed and dismissed and told they don't think what they think or feel what they feel. Just because someone says she isn't being mean doesn't mean she isn't. And if you are being ridiculed and discounted and you refuse to smile and go along, it is a victory.
And if you complain it's courage. And if they try to make you feel guilty or like it's your own fault or your imagination, that's to be expected. And refusing to feel guilty or accept the blame or deny your own feelings is also a victory.
But that doesn't mean victory doesn't hurt and isn't lonely.
Hannah
Posted by noa on November 9, 2000, at 18:56:22
In reply to Emotional/Verbal abuse, posted by Hannah on November 9, 2000, at 18:37:10
Thanks Hannah.
I just reread some of the relevant posts from that earlier thread, and appreciate the manner in which you raised your concern.
It upsets me that this blew up so fast, and I hope it can be resolved.
I hope Greg changes his mind and comes back, and I can see that you are willing to hold a dialogue and didn't use an attacking approach.
I guess Greg must have felt attacked, and perhaps it was the tone of the other poster who objected, I don't know.
I imagine that for Greg, to be judged insensitive or abusive is so devastating because that is not who he is, even if it is the case that he miscalculated how the humor might be experienced by some.
From your post to Greg thanking him for apologizing, and expressing the feeling that he need not leave, I can tell that you are someone who recognizes that Greg is a person who would not intentionally abuse or mistreat anyone, and that he would gladly alter his actions if he learned that they had hurt someone unintentionally.
My sense is that it was hard for some people to recognize what you were trying to express, because they (we) had taken the humor for what it was, and in the context of this silly play-acting thread, saw it as funny, and because Greg was so hurt by the reactions, people were not in a place in which they were very receptive to your position.
I don't blame you for anything. I hope that we can all get past this and that Greg will come back and that we can have open dialogue in a caring and respectful environment.
Thanks.
Posted by Mark H. on November 9, 2000, at 20:53:39
In reply to Emotional/Verbal abuse, posted by Hannah on November 9, 2000, at 18:37:10
Dear Hannah,
A teacher of mine once asked, "An insult is like an arrow that falls harmlessly to the ground at your feet. Why do you insist on picking it up and stabbing yourself in the chest with it?"
In skimming the "light-hearted" thread above, what seemed to be missing was any calm, compassionate, instructive explanation of what exactly was offensive (even "abusive") to you and one or two others about what Greg had written.
I am only asking for more information, not siding with Greg or defending what he wrote. Actually, I am much less interested in the content of the interaction than I am in the process.
It seems to me that claiming what Greg wrote was "abusive," without asking him any questions about his intention or presenting any evidence for making that claim, is precisely the same as labeling an individual with any pejorative. Is it possible that your own comments to Greg, by your own definition of what constitutes abuse, were themselves "abusive"?
In each era, we imagine we know what is right and wrong within a context of social change, and sometimes in our outrage and desire to correct injustice we make dangerous assumptions on the barest of details. We miss the irony that calling someone a bigot is itself an act of bigotry, that all of the "isms" are just labels that reduce people to stereotypes.
I realize this is a much deeper and more complex issue than I have suggested here, but perhaps this is a useful start.
Best wishes,
Mark H.
Posted by Hannah on November 9, 2000, at 21:13:38
In reply to Claims of Abuse as a Form of Abuse, posted by Mark H. on November 9, 2000, at 20:53:39
I don't really get your point. An arrow in the heart is not the fault of the person who is shot whether or not the shooter was aiming at her intentionally. I tried to make it clear that I objected to what Greg wrote not who he is. I think Greg and I have resolved our differences. I don't really know what you want to know or accomplish so I don't think I'll try to answer questions I don't understand.
>
> A teacher of mine once asked, "An insult is like an arrow that falls harmlessly to the ground at your feet. Why do you insist on picking it up and stabbing yourself in the chest with it?"
>
> In skimming the "light-hearted" thread above, what seemed to be missing was any calm, compassionate, instructive explanation of what exactly was offensive (even "abusive") to you and one or two others about what Greg had written.
>
> I am only asking for more information, not siding with Greg or defending what he wrote. Actually, I am much less interested in the content of the interaction than I am in the process.
>
> It seems to me that claiming what Greg wrote was "abusive," without asking him any questions about his intention or presenting any evidence for making that claim, is precisely the same as labeling an individual with any pejorative. Is it possible that your own comments to Greg, by your own definition of what constitutes abuse, were themselves "abusive"?
>
> In each era, we imagine we know what is right and wrong within a context of social change, and sometimes in our outrage and desire to correct injustice we make dangerous assumptions on the barest of details. We miss the irony that calling someone a bigot is itself an act of bigotry, that all of the "isms" are just labels that reduce people to stereotypes.
>
> I realize this is a much deeper and more complex issue than I have suggested here, but perhaps this is a useful start.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Mark H.
Posted by Hannah on November 9, 2000, at 21:26:21
In reply to Re: Emotional/Verbal abuse, posted by noa on November 9, 2000, at 18:56:22
Thanks noa I appreciate your kind words. I don't want to upset people. I don't have any big emotional investment in this board and I think it would best if I moved on . But it's not because I'm ashamed of anything I said thought or felt. And it's not because I think it's my fault :-)
You're a very thoughtful person. You should think about setting up an online therapy business or a personal coaching service. I really think you would be great at it. Goodbye and happy adventures in all your worlds, real and fantastic!!Hannah
>
> I just reread some of the relevant posts from that earlier thread, and appreciate the manner in which you raised your concern.
>
> It upsets me that this blew up so fast, and I hope it can be resolved.
>
> I hope Greg changes his mind and comes back, and I can see that you are willing to hold a dialogue and didn't use an attacking approach.
>
> I guess Greg must have felt attacked, and perhaps it was the tone of the other poster who objected, I don't know.
>
> I imagine that for Greg, to be judged insensitive or abusive is so devastating because that is not who he is, even if it is the case that he miscalculated how the humor might be experienced by some.
>
> From your post to Greg thanking him for apologizing, and expressing the feeling that he need not leave, I can tell that you are someone who recognizes that Greg is a person who would not intentionally abuse or mistreat anyone, and that he would gladly alter his actions if he learned that they had hurt someone unintentionally.
>
> My sense is that it was hard for some people to recognize what you were trying to express, because they (we) had taken the humor for what it was, and in the context of this silly play-acting thread, saw it as funny, and because Greg was so hurt by the reactions, people were not in a place in which they were very receptive to your position.
>
> I don't blame you for anything. I hope that we can all get past this and that Greg will come back and that we can have open dialogue in a caring and respectful environment.
>
> Thanks.
Posted by Mark H. on November 9, 2000, at 22:23:37
In reply to Re: Claims of Abuse as a Form of Abuse, posted by Hannah on November 9, 2000, at 21:13:38
Dear Hannah,
Ahhh, interesting comment. I didn't ask whether you and Greg had resolved your differences. I asked why you "objected to what Greg wrote," which is something you still have not articulated.
I also asked if you could see how your own definition of abuse defines you as an abuser? Neither of these is a particularly hard question to understand.
I was hoping you were up for a little self-exploration, and that we might have taken it to yet another level. It would have been interesting to explore how chronic victims actively invite and perpetuate victimization through their choice of words and targets. Few victims have the courage to look at that; those who do rarely remain victims.
An arrow in the heart is the fault of the person who chooses to pick it up and thrust it through her own chest. I'm afraid you didn't get the most basic point I was trying to make.
Perhaps another time....
Mark H.
> I don't really get your point. An arrow in the heart is not the fault of the person who is shot whether or not the shooter was aiming at her intentionally. I tried to make it clear that I objected to what Greg wrote not who he is. I think Greg and I have resolved our differences. I don't really know what you want to know or accomplish so I don't think I'll try to answer questions I don't understand.
Posted by Hannah on November 10, 2000, at 7:58:36
In reply to An Arrow in the Heart » Hannah, posted by Mark H. on November 9, 2000, at 22:23:37
> Dear Hannah,
>
> Ahhh, interesting comment. I didn't ask whether you and Greg had resolved your differences. I asked why you "objected to what Greg wrote," which is something you still have not articulated.
>Actually when you said you were more interested in process that content I didn't know what you were talking about. Greg apologized and said he realized he never should have posted that. Maybe you should ask him what he regretted
.
> I also asked if you could see how your own definition of abuse defines you as an abuser? Neither of these is a particularly hard question to understand.I'm not perfect. If I hurt someone I want to know about it so I can change. I'm not sure what you're using as "my definition of abuse."
>
> I was hoping you were up for a little self-exploration, and that we might have taken it to yet another level. It would have been interesting to explore how chronic victims actively invite and perpetuate victimization through their choice of words and targets. Few victims have the courage to look at that; those who do rarely remain victims.
Are you implying I am a chronic victim? You barely know me!!Blaming the victim is hardly an original idea!! Neither is your earlier suggestion that it is bigoted to accuse someone else of bigotry. I think both get occasional airtime on Rush Limbaugh. I don't think it is shameful to be a victim but I know that many people who have endured abuse now call themselves survivors rather than victims. I think that is partly a response to the "blame the victim" movement.I don't consider myself any kind of victim at all (at least not a passive one) but I would be if I refused to speak up when I am being hurt or see others being hurt.
>
> An arrow in the heart is the fault of the person who chooses to pick it up and thrust it through her own chest. I'm afraid you didn't get the most basic point I was trying to make.>
I get your point now. I just don't agree with it.
>
>
> > I don't really get your point. An arrow in the heart is not the fault of the person who is shot whether or not the shooter was aiming at her intentionally. I tried to make it clear that I objected to what Greg wrote not who he is. I think Greg and I have resolved our differences. I don't really know what you want to know or accomplish so I don't think I'll try to answer questions I don't understand.> Dear Hannah,
>
> A teacher of mine once asked, "An insult is like an arrow that falls harmlessly to the ground at your feet. Why do you insist on picking it up and stabbing yourself in the chest with it?"
>
> In skimming the "light-hearted" thread above, what seemed to be missing was any calm, compassionate, instructive explanation of what exactly was offensive (even "abusive") to you and one or two others about what Greg had written.
>
> I am only asking for more information, not siding with Greg or defending what he wrote. Actually, I am much less interested in the content of the interaction than I am in the process.
>
> It seems to me that claiming what Greg wrote was "abusive," without asking him any questions about his intention or presenting any evidence for making that claim, is precisely the same as labeling an individual with any pejorative. Is it possible that your own comments to Greg, by your own definition of what constitutes abuse, were themselves "abusive"?
>
> In each era, we imagine we know what is right and wrong within a context of social change, and sometimes in our outrage and desire to correct injustice we make dangerous assumptions on the barest of details. We miss the irony that calling someone a bigot is itself an act of bigotry, that all of the "isms" are just labels that reduce people to stereotypes.
>
> I realize this is a much deeper and more complex issue than I have suggested here, but perhaps this is a useful start.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Mark H.
Posted by Mark H. on November 10, 2000, at 16:29:00
In reply to Re: An Arrow in the Heart, posted by Hannah on November 10, 2000, at 7:58:36
Dear Hannah,
You're masterful in your evasiveness (which I think some might perceive as a form of passive-aggression, a key feature of many chronic victims and their would-be *defenders* who keep them down while claiming to "speak up" for them). I'm attempting to give you the benefit of the doubt here.
I understood what Greg wrote; I specifically asked you (twice) what it was that YOU chose to take offense at in what Greg had written.
Kindly answer the question!!
You can't have it both ways, Hannah. Your criticisms of others' thoughts will only be considered if you're willing to say specifically why you believe your criticisms to be valid. Otherwise, you're just wasting our time.
Last chance for a dialog with me (perhaps to your relief),
Mark H.
Posted by Hannah on November 10, 2000, at 18:12:18
In reply to Question Evaded Once Again, posted by Mark H. on November 10, 2000, at 16:29:00
> Last chance for a dialog with me >
I respectfully decline your offer of dialogue
Hannah
Posted by S. Howard on November 10, 2000, at 20:35:24
In reply to Question Evaded Once Again, posted by Mark H. on November 10, 2000, at 16:29:00
There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell 'em.
-Louis Armstrong
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 11, 2000, at 15:11:02
In reply to Question Evaded Once Again, posted by Mark H. on November 10, 2000, at 16:29:00
> You're masterful in your evasiveness (which I think some might perceive as a form of passive-aggression...
>
> I specifically asked you (twice)...
>
> Kindly answer the question!!Please remember to try to be civil. In general, I think that includes not putting pressure on others...
Bob
Posted by Mark H. on November 14, 2000, at 17:41:07
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by Dr. Bob on November 11, 2000, at 15:11:02
Thanks Dr. Bob. A couple of my attempts to help lately have been real duds. Live and learn.
Mark H.
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 14, 2000, at 20:44:38
In reply to Re: please be civil -- Will Do » Dr. Bob, posted by Mark H. on November 14, 2000, at 17:41:07
> A couple of my attempts to help lately have been real duds. Live and learn.
Thanks for being open to feedback. :-)
Bob
Posted by Todd on November 15, 2000, at 20:49:48
In reply to Re: Will Do , posted by Dr. Bob on November 14, 2000, at 20:44:38
Hi Hannah. I am familiar with Mark H. and his thought process. I am quite certain he wasn't attacking you, maybe just a bit frustrated that you weren't getting his point. Aside from the Greg thing, which I know nothing about, what Mark was trying to suggest was that each of us plays the victim. At least some of the time, anyway. We are ALL victims. And that is why we feel so much pain. He was just suggesting that the more we refuse to play the victim, the further along on the road to healing we all are. What a wonderful idea! Can I interest you in a magical mystery tour? I've walked some thorny paths, might even have a splinter or two in my toe. Reply if you are interested.
Peace and love.
Posted by Hannah on November 16, 2000, at 13:31:46
In reply to To Hannah, posted by Todd on November 15, 2000, at 20:49:48
> Hi Hannah. I am familiar with Mark H. and his thought process. I am quite certain he wasn't attacking you, maybe just a bit frustrated that you weren't getting his point.
Hi Todd I assure you I get Mark H's point. He is not the victim of my misunderstanding :o) I just disagree with his generalizations.
If you knew me you would know I am most certainly not a chronic victim, passive aggressive, or evasive (in contradiction of Mark's posts). If Mark believed I was wasting his time I believe he should take responsibility for his own time usage. I do not think he is my victim. I don't know who the "we" in his reply refers to.
Aside from the Greg thing, which I know nothing about, what Mark was trying to suggest was that each of us plays the victim. At least some of the time, anyway. We are ALL victims. And that is why we feel so much pain.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Of course we are all sometimes victims. If you mean by "play the victim" that it is a conscious choice or manipulation, I would disagree. This may be Mark's or your personal experience but it is not mine. Perhaps if he chose to discuss his own embrace of the victim role it would have been more useful. I think it is dangerous to generalize and then to proselytize. The message that we are all sometimes victims of things we can't control is common sense. If someone has recognized that he clings to the vicim role or seeks it out and makes an effort to change his behaviour, Good for him! And thanks for sharing! To continue and suggest that someone else is indulging in this behaviour and he has the answer to it is too big a leap!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
He was just suggesting that the more we refuse to play the victim, the further along on the road to healing we all are. What a wonderful idea!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It's an excellent idea, though hardly an original one. In fact my original post was a refusal to play the victim by just going away and not objecting to something I found offensive. Refusing to "play" the victim and denying that abuse has taken place are different things. I think action is sometimes necessary to avoid being a victim. Did Dr Bob choose to pick up the arrow of incivility and jab it into his head when he warned alice? Was he choosing to play the victim? And when he left it festering there for a couple of days and then decided to block her was it his fault? (A little humor to make a point Dr Bob-and farewell to all if he decides to ban me too ;o)Can I interest you in a magical mystery tour?
I don't know what you are talking about :o) I am not looking for a tour guide through life, but if you want to tell me about yourself, feel free.
Peace and love right back atcha
Hannah
I've walked some thorny paths, might even have a splinter or two in my toe. Reply if you are interested.
> Peace and love.
Posted by S. Howard on November 16, 2000, at 15:37:08
In reply to Re: To Hannah » Todd, posted by Hannah on November 16, 2000, at 13:31:46
Can I interest you in a magical mystery tour?
Not without the drugs!
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.