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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 6 of 6. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Simcha on November 29, 2001, at 15:27:23
Folks,
I see many conversations about the virtues and vices of 12-step programs. I know that for myself, 12-step programs have been life-savers when nothing else was working.
I've been a member of Al-Anon (for family and friends of alcoholics) for 6+ years. I joined the next few programs in short order (Sexual Compulsives Anonymous, and Survivors of Incest Anonymous.)
That being said. I was one messed up dude before starting therapy 10 years ago. After four years of therapy I became convinced that therapy alone was not the answer. I needed a spiritual solution with spiritual tools. This is what the 12-steps offer. For me these days it has become another tool in the arsenal to become stable and stay out of the depression, OCD (sexual compulsion), and anxiety.
Eventually it became obvious that talk therapy and 12-step groups weren't enough for me. I need meds. I finally accepted this fact at the beginning of the year and I have grown in acceptance of this fact since.
The trouble is that 12-steppers can be rather dogmatic in their interpretation of addiction and the causes thereof. Certainly many 12-steppers remain very suspicious of employing medication as a tool for recovery since "self-medicating" was part of the problem. I had my prejudices about meds too and that is why it took me so long to accept meds as a tool in my arsenal. I admit that the 12-step bias against meds did influence me. Was it due to 12-step dogma and the "cult" mentality? Hmm..
I will submit to you that every religion is a cult. We as human beings need to choose wisely with whom we entrust our spiritual instruction. Too often do people just "go along" with conventional religion never really discerning what path they really need to follow.
But I digress...
The 12-step dogma did entrance me for a while. I do not regret it. I had to be SHOWN that the only way I would get almost complete relief from mental illness was to use medication. I was shown that I needed medication because my life became very unmanageable as my depression worsened and the OCD strengthened its hold on me. 12-step spirituality was a tool I used to discern this truth.
In 12-step, in step one, we admit that we are powerless over "x." (fill in your choice of addiction, alcohol, cocaine, food, sex, etc.) I came to realize that I was powerless over the depression and the compulsion. My therapist at the time (also in 12-step recovery) helped me to see that I had a medical problem that required a medical solution in order to bring some manageability to my life.
I now see that I absolutely need my meds to balance the chemistry in my brain. I have a physical problem. Spiritual solutions can help me with this illness too. Yet when the problem is physical in nature it requires some sort of physical treatment. I look at hypnotherapy and 12-step spirituality as supportive therapies now for the mental illness. The meds truly are my #1 treatment today. Medication makes my life livable. I would never give up my spiritual path because that makes my life worth living.
At the moment I am not attending any 12-step meetings. Those of you in 12-step can hold your tongues with the typical response of, "a relapse is sure to follow." I have found this not to be the case. I believe I have learned my lessons from 12-step meetings. I have a fellowship of friends and fellow spiritualists (not 12-step) from whom I get support. I still keep in touch with friends I've made in the meetings. I just haven't found any meetings in my area that suit me (recently moved to a new state, city) and this tells me that G-d may be telling me that meetings have served their purpose.
I believe I have found the correct mix of support and meds for this stage of my life. For that I am very grateful.
Do I regret the time spent in 12-step meetings and doing 12-step work? NO! I believe that this was necessary for me at the time. I'm grateful that these meetings were there for me.
Do I believe the dogma of 12-step blindly? NO! I do not believe that once an addict always an addict. (Of course I cannot go back to anonymous sex. That might lead me back to compulsivity. Of course on the meds and with support anonymous sex does not look like an attractive option now.) I also, therefore, do not believe that all addicts need to go to meetings for the rest of their lives for fear of relapse. I choose to live as if I am "cured." Really it's more a matter of maintenance (regular meds, continual support, etc.)
I welcome an honest discussion on the merits and the pitfalls of 12-step groups. Please be civil. It's OK to be passionate but, I've made this mistake here too, we need to be civil here to maintain a level of support to one another. Let's not knock what works for someone just because it does not work for us. (I did this with homeopathy when I first joined this board.)
Anyone Game?
Simcha
Posted by Phil on November 29, 2001, at 18:52:06
In reply to Addictionology AA -- Science? Cult? Religion?, posted by Simcha on November 29, 2001, at 15:27:23
Simcha,
Attended ACA and Al-Anon for several years. Haven't been since my mom died in '93. She had 19 years sobriety that only AA could bring about.
I was always so damned proud of her despite the hell I grew up with. Always called her on her birthday and AA birthday.
I had individual therapy yesterday, do group once a week. Told my therapist, as I have many times, I really should make a meeting. They are tremendously helpful in learning whether it's your shit or someone else's. I made a lot of friends in AA but just feel a little sad about going back. My best recovery friend moved a few years ago and we did a lot of meetings, conventions..once, and just hanging out.
I have seen AA work miracles and have never thought of them as a cult or religion. Your higher power can be a tree if you'd like.
I also met some of the most honest, funny, and overall damn good people in meetings. In general, there's not much bullshitting, I always heard what I needed to hear.
It's not a religion but I've had meetings that were so warm and spiritual-feeling closer to humanity than I have ever felt at any church.
Come to think of it, churches never give me that feeling.Babylon,
Phil
Posted by Krazy Kat on November 29, 2001, at 20:24:35
In reply to Addictionology AA -- Science? Cult? Religion?, posted by Simcha on November 29, 2001, at 15:27:23
Simcha:
I'm guessing my comments spurred this.
I'd be happy to have an open discussion, especially including other things folks have tried. Unfortunately I'm going away for a week.
I think your post is very good.
- K.
Posted by Simcha on November 29, 2001, at 20:42:41
In reply to Re: Addictionology AA -- Science? Cult? Religion? » Simcha, posted by Krazy Kat on November 29, 2001, at 20:24:35
KK
Have fun in Espana! I'm going to France during the last week of December. :-)
Your comments did spur this thread. I want to have a dignified and open discussion of the topic so that all sides can air their opinions.
Also we can learn of different methods that other members have used to help themselves that might work for others.
Take Care,
Simcha> Simcha:
>
> I'm guessing my comments spurred this.
>
> I'd be happy to have an open discussion, especially including other things folks have tried. Unfortunately I'm going away for a week.
>
> I think your post is very good.
>
> - K.
Posted by akc on December 1, 2001, at 16:58:15
In reply to Addictionology AA -- Science? Cult? Religion?, posted by Simcha on November 29, 2001, at 15:27:23
I was reminded once again this morning why AA works. I've recently started attending a different meeting. The group I was attending -- well, it might come close to KK's cult status. The long term members were really full of themselves, they were very preachy to the newcomers -- much more promotion than attraction. While I have not maintained my sobriety over the past 3 1/2 years, I would sit in those meetings sad for some of these people with long time "dry time" -- I didn't see recovery -- I saw a fixation on the program without understanding the principles.
Because of another meeting I had been attending, I decided to switch to a different location. Talk about a world of difference. And again I will say -- this is why this program works. The Oxford groups, out of which AA sprang, still exists here and there -- but never with the success of AA. Because there is only one way in the Oxford way. AA allows for such variety, people like myself have a chance.
There is this gentleman in my new group, Charlie -- I just knew he had long time sobriety. I'm thinking 20+ years. Well it turns out his is in his 7th year. And he talked a little about going to AA way back in he 70s -- and being turned off because the group he went to was very dogmatic.
AA is so hard to put into some pigeonhole -- one group will seem cult-like, the next will seem so open and free. And they change. That first group I mentioned? When I first moved to KC -- I thought it was very open -- it has evolved over the past 2 years (and the people I admired have moved on to other groups -- especially to the group I am now at).
I would be unwelcome, I am uncertain, at some groups for my week after week after week of God-bashing. But I guess my experience with that in AA is so different than the experience I had with a very fundamentalistic church. When I think cult, I think of the guilt and shame that is laid on you if you don't believe a certain way. I've never had that placed on me in AA (or alanon). I've had some looks of -- someday, you'll get this, or you'll surrender. But it is different. I don't feel I am being condemned.
Maybe that is why I have such a strong reaction to this -- the church I was in would not technically be classified as a cult -- but it is pretty close to it. So I have been in that atmosphere. And AA is different. True -- members can be pushy as hell, and a lot of us do see it as the only way to solve the drinking and drugging problem. But that may be just over-excitement, not religion.
Just some thoughts.
akc
Posted by Rosa on December 4, 2001, at 10:59:41
In reply to Addictionology AA -- Science? Cult? Religion?, posted by Simcha on November 29, 2001, at 15:27:23
For more information about Alcoholics Anonymous, go to: www.aa.org
If you are interested in learning more about Al-Anon, please go to: www.al-anon.alateen.org
Thanks.
This is the end of the thread.
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