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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Cam W. on May 25, 2002, at 0:58:15
.... Islam of today and Christianity of the Dark Ages (4th to 13th centuries C.E.)?
• no separation of church and state.
• dogmatism, intolerance, inhumanity, and backwardness abound.
• is the only pure deity-given religion.
• the deity is seen as a "personal god" who rewards good deeds and punishes bad deeds.
• every word of the "Holy Book" is the deity's word.
• the "Holy Book" contains all the knowledge that mankind will ever need.
• the "Holy Book" answers all human questions therefore freethinking, scientific inquiry, and technical innovation are unnecessary.
• women are considered property.
• masses are kept largely uneducated and thus illiterate.
• the masses are controlled by fear.
• the "Holy Book" is preached in a language which is not understood by a majority of the masses.
• interpretation of the "Holy Book" based upon desires and needs of the current leaders.
• questioning of the current interpretation of "The Word" results in severe punishment, usually ending in death.
• the most zealous leaders are the most corrupt.
• believers required to look upon adherents of other religions as worthy of subjugation or death.
• uses the "word of the deity" as justification to overthrow other governments to widen scope of control through holy wars.
Hmmmm....
(of course, much of the above was paraphrased by Cam W. from an article written by Syed Kamran Mirza)
Posted by kid_A on May 25, 2002, at 4:11:27
In reply to Anyone else notice the similarities between ...., posted by Cam W. on May 25, 2002, at 0:58:15
Islam is actually on a downslope and falling apart at the seams...This oppinon of course was gleaned from some other source as well which I do not have the memory to site here....
Posted by Cam W. on May 25, 2002, at 4:58:50
In reply to Re: Anyone else notice the similarities between .... » Cam W., posted by kid_A on May 25, 2002, at 4:11:27
>
> Islam is actually on a downslope and falling apart at the seams...
>
> This oppinon of course was gleaned from some other source as well which I do not have the memory to site here....Yeah, but these guys have been doing it this way for 3000 years. Surely, a few bunker busters aren't enough to stamp on all of them. What are you going to give them after you've beaten them. A harsher life? I doubt it. They know this.
Could this be what happens to all of the great ancient civilizations. They budded, blossomed, and then shriveled. You see it again and again in history: Rome, Egypt (a couple times), the Mayan, Grecian, Persia, etc. It kinda seems that all great civilizations fall, and for a number of different reasons. Perhaps what is happening in Afganistan is a sign of shriveling, but I doubt it.
Posted by Dinah1 on May 25, 2002, at 9:20:05
In reply to Re: Anyone else notice the similarities between .... » kid_A, posted by Cam W. on May 25, 2002, at 4:58:50
Ummm.....
I sincerely hope that no devout Muslims are lurkers on this board, because....
Damn! I don't want to get involved again. I am getting so confused and I'm sure I'm missing something that is obvious to everyone else. Because no one else is saying anything. Is everyone in on the joke but me?
But is equal opportunity religion bashing the answer?
Sorry if this post offends anyone. I know you didn't mean any harm in it. Etc.
I gotta take a break.
Posted by Dinah1 on May 25, 2002, at 9:29:54
In reply to Re: Anyone else notice the similarities between ...., posted by Dinah1 on May 25, 2002, at 9:20:05
That post sounded a bit curt. But honestly, I've told off my own minister over similar statements. I take religion and religious tolerance very seriously.
So chalk it up to my lack of humor, because, again, I'm sure something is going on that I'm not aware of. I'm quite certain I'm missing it. And I apologize if I am again taking something too seriously.
I especially apologize for the etc. That was my frustration speaking.
Posted by beardedlady on May 25, 2002, at 9:39:10
In reply to Re: Anyone else notice the similarities between ...., posted by Dinah1 on May 25, 2002, at 9:20:05
...the critics of religion?
There's no joke here. But if you stand up for someone's right to tell religious stories or give bible-driven advice, surely you have to grant the same right to people who think religion is not the answer.
You don't have to agree with what they say, but they're as entitled to say what they believe in as you and Lou and Ron are entitled to say what you believe in. Right?
I don't see this as religion bashing. And though I have always supported Lou's right to tell his tales and to answer people in narrative-fable-riddle, my beliefs are right here with Cam.
I'm glad you are concerned for any Muslims who may be lurking. Do you hold the same concerns for kiddo and krazy kat and others who were offended by religious posts? And how about athiests and agnostics who might be offended by talk of Christianity or salvation?
I don't think it's fair to support someone's right to post religious lessons, in spite of who they may offend, but withdraw support for those who hold opposing views, out of concern for whom they might offend.
beardy : )>
Posted by Dinah1 on May 25, 2002, at 9:47:50
In reply to support for religious posters but not... » Dinah1, posted by beardedlady on May 25, 2002, at 9:39:10
I suppose I see a difference between the positive stating of any views, including atheist and agnostic, and making negative comments about another's views, including Islam.
Don't you?
If XXXXXX were to call anyone who didn't believe in Christ a hell bent pagan, I would find that uncivil. If XXXX were to say that any particular religion were going downhill, I would find that uncivil.
If anyone were to talk about how they have come to the conclusion that there was no god, and how they were happy with that decision, I would find that quite civil.
If that same someone were to say that anyone who believes in religion was a flaming idiot, I would consider that uncivil.
Is the distinction really that hard to see?
Posted by Dinah1 on May 25, 2002, at 10:02:34
In reply to Re: support for religious posters but not... » beardedlady, posted by Dinah1 on May 25, 2002, at 9:47:50
If someone were to post what a great comfort he found in religion, and someone were to answer that he had found great pain in religion, I would not consider that one bit uncivil, as long as each person respected the other person and his views.
And Dr. Bob asked that anti-semitic sites not be linked. I'm sure he would feel similarly about anti-Islamic articles.
Posted by Dinah1 on May 25, 2002, at 10:36:40
In reply to support for religious posters but not... » Dinah1, posted by beardedlady on May 25, 2002, at 9:39:10
>
> I don't think it's fair to support someone's right to post religious lessons, in spite of who they may offend, but withdraw support for those who hold opposing views, out of concern for whom they might offend.
>
> beardy : )>And to be absolutely clear on this, I have never supported anyone's right to post "religious lessons" (although I saw it more as a recounting of an experience). I don't make more than passing mention to religion on this board, and I figure it's Dr. Bob's call as to what gets discussed here.
So if you or anyone else thinks this is what I was defending, you are mistaken.
I was defending Lou and the right of anyone to be treated with dignity and respect. That's the issue I was putting myself on the line for. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear from my posts, and I think it is important enough a distinction to make sure it is clear.
Posted by beardedlady on May 25, 2002, at 11:12:41
In reply to Re: support for religious posters but not... » beardedlady, posted by Dinah1 on May 25, 2002, at 10:36:40
Dinah:
That's not what I meant by the word lessons. I meant them as moralistic fables, tales, etc. Eventually, they (Lou's stories, at least) have a moral (whether stated or implied), which makes them something of a lesson.
Regarding Cam's post and KidA's response, I didn't find them to be calling anyone idiots. To say that a certain religion is going downhill fast (and KidA did say that he was paraphrasing something he read on a web site) is not uncivil; it may be a fact, or it may simply be an observation. (I think he might have meant respect for the religion was going downhill, but I don't know exactly.)
It just looks worse when it's not our own point of view.
I'd like to see a post that debates the statements Cam made, so there's an actual discussion of the specific content of her argument, rather than everyone constantly debating civility.
We shouldn't cry foul every time someone says something controversial. I suppose if we, personally, are offended by it, there's a difference. But why get offended for someone else?
beardy : )>
Posted by Ritch on May 25, 2002, at 11:41:51
In reply to Anyone else notice the similarities between ...., posted by Cam W. on May 25, 2002, at 0:58:15
Cam,
Interesting analogy.
I think the Islamic world is simply going through the spiritual earthquakes that have also shook Christianity up. The world is changing all around them (and us) at a very rapid clip. That has got to produce a tremendous amount of dissonance between their beliefs and what they see in the outside world. Perhaps we are just now seeing a big "reformation" beginning. The idea of a secular state with protected freedoms for individuals is a relatively new idea historically.
Mitch
Posted by kid_A on May 25, 2002, at 13:08:06
In reply to Re: Anyone else notice the similarities between ...., posted by Dinah1 on May 25, 2002, at 9:20:05
The reference I couldn't remember was Bernard Lewis's book, What Went Wrong, which attempts to look at, and I'll quote the article which I read (on Salon) which mentions this book, it attempts to look at "Islam's ascendance over the West in the early medieval era and its subsequent long decline"...Lewis is not unquestionable in his viewpoints, and he seems to have a more pro-Israeli stance... but I think some of the points he raises, like the lack of secularism as being a fundamental hurdle in the advancement and stability of the Islamic culture do have some merit...
I'm not in any way talking about the West conquering Islam, or any such thing, nor do I have anything against the Islamic faith, I'm only saying that there may be certain elements to the practice and integration of the faith which may make it difficult to achieve a certain level of stability... I do however, hope that this stability can be achieved through peacefull and non violent methods and with as much freedom and assistance to the people of Islamic nations as is possible...
Posted by Katt on May 25, 2002, at 19:02:59
In reply to What I meant..., posted by kid_A on May 25, 2002, at 13:08:06
People here make me sick sometimes.
Where is Dr. Bob when anti-Islamic remarks are made? Must I become a vigilante here?????
Hello??? Dr. Bob?? Are you not answering this time?
People who do not have familiarity with a religion have no right to criticize it. Yes, PEOPLE, you CAN actually offend someone on this site!! You've offended me. How convenient.
Why not we shift our focus to the perverted priests in the world of christianity???? Wouldn't everyone just appreciate that!! But no, no one wants to discuss that. You can only frown on what is foreign and unknown to you.
Why not we shift our focus on the fact that many of the problems caused in Islamic worlds stem from American hatred, prejudice, racism, misunderstanding, and an attempt to suppress other civilizations??? What? No one knew that Afganistan fought America's war against Russia? Why am I surprised? You mean you all didn't know we promised Afganistan 3 things if they won our war for us, yet we never delivered them?? How American!!!
I could go on. But as I understood, this board was meant to have discussions regarding psychological/psychiatrist issues. Not political or religious or racist issues that apparently, because of our American ignorance, are one-sided and purely offensive. This board is a shame and it's pathetic!!
Dr. Bob???? You there? Do you give a s**T?? Or are you just worried about anti-semitic remarks.
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 25, 2002, at 19:50:01
In reply to AHEM!!!!, posted by Katt on May 25, 2002, at 19:02:59
Katt,
When I saw the anti-Semitic post a few days ago, I did not want to believe that someone on this board harbored those feelings . For I have met with the KKK, the White Areans, and other hate groups and when you ever meet those people, you will really know what "sick" means. I fought them for years in the school that I was a teacher in. I learned about their minds and how they operated. But I have corrosponded with Dr. Bob, and if you look at the previous posts you will see that he will not allow hate to be promulgated on this board. It takes at least one day for an internet moderator to be aware of the posts, unless they come up while he is on the posts. This delay is standard in the boards, for the nature of the moderator is that the posts will be a day behind. Dr. Bob, I assure you, will address this thread with the same impartiality as he adddressed my concerns.
I have fought for the rights of all peoples in a variety of situations and have been jailed on trumped up charges 3 times (I won them all). I have seen how people use peoples that are minorities, or out of favor with the majority. There are people that will try to elevate their own self-esteem by attacking the defensless and downtrodden. They usually do this when they feel that the ones that they are showing hate to are not able to defend themselves. They even feel that they are doing others a favor. They think that the minorities are "fair-game" and that they can do harm to them and be praised by others. I have been ganged up on by professionals and used as a scape-goat for their problems. In your case, the posters remarks, to me, are incitive to arrouse anti-Islamic feelings on this board, just like I felt that the poster that posted the link to the anti-Semitic web site was a vailed attempt to try to arrouse anti-Semitic feelings toward me. Now I gave the poster an opportunity to make a disclaimer that his intentions were not to do that, even thogh I thought that others could get that opinion. Now he did respond favorably and the issue has been resolved.
The statement that Islam is falling apart, to me is blatently anti-Islamic. The statement , to me, that a few bunker- busters... is outrageous also.
You do not have to be Islamic to feel what you feel. You do not have to be the peoples to feel the hurt of someone's hate to anyone. In my 7 Gates, there is a Nazi that helped the jews and refused to participate in the others hate. If he could refuse under the greatest of pressure, so could anyone.
Lou
Posted by kid_A on May 25, 2002, at 20:13:45
In reply to Lou's response to Katt » Katt, posted by Lou Pilder on May 25, 2002, at 19:50:01
I am not going to speak for anyone else, but I enjoy the way my previous text is again refered to as anti-semitic, as if that were my intention, and now anti Islamic, even when I include the following text concerning Islam:"I do however, hope that this stability can be achieved through peacefull and non violent methods and with as much freedom and assistance to the people of Islamic nations as is possible..."
There are many texts available written by a very diverse group of people concerning the Islamic faith, I don't think one is required to be of the Islamic faith to have the capacity to understand certain elements or recognisable trends of that faith...
Of course, this could all just be opinion... opinion... sigh...
I am Dog,
La De Da...
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 25, 2002, at 20:59:19
In reply to tra la la..... la de da...., posted by kid_A on May 25, 2002, at 20:13:45
Kid_A,
For anyone to put another peoples on trial on an internet board is outrageous. They do not have the right to defend themselves. You and the people that also posted similar messages on that thread deny the right of the accused to a fair trial. They can not confront there accusers, they can not even defend themselves.
You and the others become the judge, jury and prosicutor. the charges are trumped -up, the witness are biased, the jury only sees one side.
Katt said a great message to you. Katt felt the outrage. Katt "knows it when she/he sees it"
Lou
Posted by kid_A on May 25, 2002, at 21:19:36
In reply to Lou 's answer to Kid_A. » kid_A, posted by Lou Pilder on May 25, 2002, at 20:59:19
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 25, 2002, at 23:04:49
In reply to support for religious posters but not... » Dinah1, posted by beardedlady on May 25, 2002, at 9:39:10
Beardedlady,
The posts by Cam W. and Kid_a in this thread are not talking about "religion not being the answer". They are demeaning a people . Even if they comingle a little of what you percieve as "religion not being the answer", the major emphisis in this thread by Cam W. and Kid_A is racist, for they put the one group up in a demenung light.
The statement that ...a few bunker busters arn't enough to stamp on all of them.. is a refference to genocide.
Someone said it, "I know it when I see it"
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 25, 2002, at 23:31:01
In reply to Re: Anyone else notice the similarities between .... » kid_A, posted by Cam W. on May 25, 2002, at 4:58:50
Friends,
This thread is perhaps the worst that I have ever seen on this board. It not only demeans the Islamic culture, but it demeans all of us. For the poster goes on to say ,"Yeah, but THESE GUYS have been doing it this way for 3000 years."
In the magnificant movie, Casablanca, in the end, Bogart says to Claud Rains, the detective, "O.K. Louie, round up the usual suspects." I get the feeling that after reading Cam W's and Kid_A's post that that is what I see.
The 3000 years needs to be explained, because Muhammad founded Islam only about 1400 years ago. The other 2400 years are the years of the jews and christians. Now the suspects , then, are the jews and the christians and the Islamic people. Cam W. says that Islam today and Christianity of the dark ages were the "usual suspects" IMHO. This is why this thread is abhorant to an internet board. It equates religion with the dark ages. Religion did not cause the dark ages. Hate did. The jews were blamed for the plages. the christians sent their "crusaders" to kill Islamics. Hate is what caused all this. And I see it, and Katt sees it. And Robrt Zimmerman sees it for he said, "You don't have to be a wetherman to know which way the wind blows."
Lou
Posted by Cam W. on May 26, 2002, at 18:48:54
In reply to Lou's answer to this thread (more) » Cam W., posted by Lou Pilder on May 25, 2002, at 23:31:01
Lou, Lou, Lou - I hardly think that anything I have said is new or anti-Islamic. Actually I have probably erred by not strictly saying that it is the fundamentalist Islamic followers (eg the Taliban) that are causing problems for the majority of the modern thinking Islamic sects.
As for the 3000 years. The Middle East has long been regarded as the cradle of civilization and my figure of 3000 years, should probably be raised to at least 9000 years, according to some of the latest archeological evidence. The point that I was trying to make (and has been made by sci-fi writers since the late 1940s) is that perhaps great civilizations always fall, and this is what we may be witnessing in Afghanistan.
As for Christian doctrine in the Dark Ages and even the Middle Age, and it's influence in the political arena, did stagnate science and technological advances. Anyone who has read anything on the Scientific Revolution will know this. The church's hold on political power began to began to faulter in the 12th to 14th century, when Western European was reintroduced to the writings of Islamic scientists.
It was the Islamic scientists who had done more for the advancement of Western science, than anyone else. While the West had all but lost the teachings of the Greeks, it was the Middle Easterners who saved this knowledge and added greatly to it. The same cannot be said for the people of these same countries today.
I was just making an observation that I had noticed. I wan't blaming anyone, nor anti-anyone. I was just making a comment. If I was going to blame someone for the current state of affairs in the world, I would not be blaming Muslims.
Sigh! I would say more, but I don't really think that I need to; your words speaks volumes.
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 27, 2002, at 0:15:26
In reply to Anyone else notice the similarities between ...., posted by Cam W. on May 25, 2002, at 0:58:15
> Anyone else notice the similarities between ... Islam of today and Christianity of the Dark Ages (4th to 13th centuries C.E.)? ...
>
> • dogmatism, intolerance, inhumanity, and backwardness abound.Please don't post anything that others could take as accusatory or put others down. Even if it's "only" those of particular sects.
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, or complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration, thanks.
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 27, 2002, at 0:15:38
In reply to Lou 's answer to Kid_A. » kid_A, posted by Lou Pilder on May 25, 2002, at 20:59:19
> You and the people that also posted similar messages on that thread deny the right of the accused to a fair trial.
> You and the others become the judge, jury and prosicutor. the charges are trumped -up, the witness are biased, the jury only sees one side.Please don't post anything that others could take as accusatory or put others down.
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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