![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 27. Go back in thread:
Posted by oracle on June 23, 2002, at 3:28:10
In reply to P.S., posted by mist on June 23, 2002, at 0:42:37
I totally agree. I would add that even in psychological
depressions neouology is still changed. The things we assoc. w/depression;
low energy, low mood, sleeping changes, ect, are all neurological
functions.I think part for why this becomes a "war" is because
people fell "better" if you call depression a medical
condition and not a psychological one. You cannot
seperate the mind from the body.O
Posted by tabitha on June 23, 2002, at 3:34:36
In reply to P.S., posted by mist on June 23, 2002, at 0:42:37
I agree, it's pointless to make this issue an either/or. Doing so just shows that old cognitive distortion, black & white thinking.
I suspect people on the extreme pro-neurology side are profoundly uncomfortable with the murky, personal, subjective, "soft" science of psychology. Or they've had bad personal experiences with therapists.
Whenever someone has an extreme position on some impersonal issue that they defend fiercely with logic I immediately assume it's standing in for some personal issue they'd rather not face. That's my bias.
I had a weird discussion with a friend, who's a therapist and anti-med. He told me it's because the science behind medication is bad. I understand no one knows for sure how meds work, but he seems to think there's no proof they work (not true, many double-blind studies show otherwise). This from a guy who believes in multiple chemical sensitivity, which is far behind psych meds in medical acceptance. Just goes to show, people will use science illogically. My analysis, this guy is afraid to admit any biological basis for human mental functioning, it threatens his personal sense of control (or the legitimacy of his work)?
It's so fun to speculate about Other People's Issues, isn't it? ;)
Posted by mist on June 23, 2002, at 11:00:30
In reply to Re: P.S., posted by oracle on June 23, 2002, at 3:28:10
Good points, oracle and tabitha.
> I would add that even in psychological depressions neouology is still changed.
Yes, I believe it's a two-way street. As with stress causing changes in the body that can lead to health problems (blood pressure and others), events in one's life, and the way one handles them psychologically can lead to neurological changes resulting in depression, or deepening and prolongation of depression.
Posted by krazy kat on June 24, 2002, at 13:38:36
In reply to thoughts on this, posted by tabitha on June 23, 2002, at 3:34:36
But these aren't other people's issues for us -- we're right in the middle of it.
Bipolar Disorder and Major Depression are neurological/biochemical illnesses that are exacerbated by stress, etc. the same way heart disease and migraines are.
It's that simple, imho.
- kk
Posted by krazy kat on June 24, 2002, at 14:09:51
In reply to thoughts on this, posted by tabitha on June 23, 2002, at 3:34:36
"I suspect people on the extreme pro-neurology side are profoundly uncomfortable with the murky, personal, subjective, "soft" science of psychology. Or they've had bad personal experiences with therapists."
I don't think this has to be true at all. I am currently a tad anti-psychologist due to a disability encounter, I will admit, but then I had a very nice meeting with a therapist recently so it kind of evened out (I am not in therapy, however, just to keep it above water).
One can certainly argue that these are "physical disorders" without harboring some deep-seated hatred for cognitive therapy (I'm being facetious on purpose since mist called it WWIII).
Now, a physical disorder such as this causes a lot of pain and problems, especially, I would imagine, if present since childhood. also, poor social development, etc. so therapy to address those issues seems relevant to me.
BUT, in Bipolar Disorder, it is imperative that medication be issued first. It's been shown that psycho-therapy can actually harm a manic depressive who is not stabilized.
- kk
Posted by IsoM on June 24, 2002, at 14:23:07
In reply to pro-neurology defense :), posted by krazy kat on June 24, 2002, at 14:09:51
Again, KK... why I'm glad someone like you is studying to be a psychologist. :-)
Posted by mist on June 24, 2002, at 14:46:33
In reply to pro-neurology defense :), posted by krazy kat on June 24, 2002, at 14:09:51
KK,
I believe all bipolar and *some* major depressions are "physical disorders" as you say-- that they would happen regardless of circumstances. However, I've been diagnosed with major depression more than once in my life, including last year. The rest of the time I've had moderate depression, sometimes (more rarely) mild. The major depression for me is a deepening, worsening of the other levels of depression, not anything different. It's just things getting worse internally for me until I end up in a practically vegetative state. I also know that the origins of my depression had to do with my childhood environment and how I responded it psychologically (which was beyond my control), which then caused neurological changes that produced the symptoms of depression.
I don't believe this is the case for everyone—I can only know my own experience—but clearly it is for some since it is for me. What I find difficult is people insisting that because they have one experience, or a set of conclusions drawn from their experience, it has to be true for everyone in spite of what others say about their own lives! When I hear people aggressively assert absolutes like that, I feel like my experience and what I've learned from it is being invalidated and disrespected.
By the way, I'm not referring to anything you've said, this is more about how some other, less civil, posters have handled the issue here.
I also think acknowledging the role environment *can* play in mental health is important to help educate parents about behaviors and expectations that are unhealthy for their kids. It's not about blaming parents, but about collectively learning as a society what's best for kids (which even well meaning parents sometimes seem to be clueless about). Sometimes depression is an effect of a depriving/abusive/neglectful environment in which a child feels trapped and becomes hopeless, yet the parents are in denial that anything is wrong. What therapy can theoretically do when it works is break the denial, either for the family or for the individuals affected by it when they are grown.
This doesn't mean there aren't people who wouldn't get depressed anyway as result of purely biological factors.
By the way,in spite of what I've said I'm actually a little anti-psychologist too because I think too many aren't that good or they don't know their limitations (who they can help and who they can't).
Posted by krazy kat on June 24, 2002, at 15:26:36
In reply to Re: pro-neurology defense :) » krazy kat , posted by IsoM on June 24, 2002, at 14:23:07
psychologist. (if i were really studying to be a psychologist, which i'm not, just to clarify to everyone).
thank you. ;)
- kk
Posted by krazy kat on June 24, 2002, at 15:45:34
In reply to Re: pro-neurology defense :) » krazy kat , posted by mist on June 24, 2002, at 14:46:33
>> I believe all bipolar and *some* major depressions are "physical disorders" as you say-- that they would happen regardless of circumstances.
yeah, it sure seems that way to me. and it's being "proven".
>> However, I've been diagnosed with major depression more than once in my life, including last year. The rest of the time I've had moderate depression, sometimes (more rarely) mild.
interesting - do you take medication during the mild depression, or does therapy "suffice" so to speak? (just curious). also, i've wondered about the use of substances such as St. John's Wort which was only shown to work in mild cases. Would that help? Or a dietary change?
>> What I find difficult is people insisting that because they have one experience, or a set of conclusions drawn from their experience, it has to be true for everyone in spite of what others say about their own lives!
Absolutamently!! I agree. I know I'm reacting somewhat from having two psychologists recently be condescending towards me re: my illness when I told them I don't go to therapy. I ran rings around one on them. :) (This "good" attitude of mine explains the joke isom made above). :)
I used to, even very recently, shrug my shoulders and dip my head and say, "Well, it Could be something that can be fixed by therapy."(even though I've been thru the med trials and seen what happens when one works, and seen what happens when one doesn't). I get a little defensive when I hear that people "feel better" when they hear it's an illness. Of course we do - some of us have been told or taught that we just need to be stronger to get it over it, when we can't without meds, or maybe surgery someday. But then, we all know that routine...
> > By the way, I'm not referring to anything you've said, this is more about how some other, less civil, posters have handled the issue here.
oh, i didn't think so - you're very clear and civil. and i try to be. :)
>> I also think acknowledging the role environment *can* play in mental health is important to help educate parents about behaviors and expectations that are unhealthy for their kids.I agree. Also helps if they'll admit to and look for illness like Bipolar Disorder so they can perhaps catch that earlier with meds, too. We'll see if that makes sense, i guess in the future. autism is falling into this. seizures. fascinating.
>> By the way,in spite of what I've said I'm actually a little anti-psychologist too because I think too many aren't that good or they don't know their limitations (who they can help and who they can't).
One I met in NYC a week and a half ago, a friend of a friend. I've actually met him before and forgot he was a practicing psychologist in NYC. So, we're talking expensive office space, and one would think impressive credentials. This guy got SO plastered, and kept hugging me and feeding me lines like "It'll get better" (I hadn't said anything was wrong) after I told him I was Bipolar. He was very pro-med, said don't stop that ever, which I agree with. But even before the night wore on and he was tipsy, I realized knew more about the disorder and treatment options than he did.
Do Psychologists study the biochemical concepts at all? If not, will they have to? And, I wonder if they are a dying breed, to be replaced by Psychiatrist/Neurologist types and therapy, which is more affordable and can be indv., family or group oriented?
Interesting discussion.
- kk
Posted by mist on June 24, 2002, at 16:17:11
In reply to pro-pro both as options... » mist, posted by krazy kat on June 24, 2002, at 15:45:34
KK,
I just wanted to acknowledge your post. I'll reply to it later. My "to do" list is pressuring me to actually do something other than stay on the internet all day and night. :)
-mist
Posted by mist on June 24, 2002, at 22:38:20
In reply to pro-pro both as options... » mist, posted by krazy kat on June 24, 2002, at 15:45:34
kk,
>interesting - do you take medication during the mild depression, or does therapy "suffice" so to speak? (just curious). also, i've wondered about the use of substances such as St. John's Wort which was only shown to work in mild cases. Would that help? Or a dietary change?
No I don't take meds at all. Had a bad reaction to ADs so developed a fear of them (I am more sensitive to them than most people, I believe). But I think stimulants (Adderall, Provigil, etc.) might help so want to try those for depression and my ADD symptoms. St. John's Wort did help some but pooped out. Worked like an SSRI. Less emotional, no terrible lows, felt calmer and generally better, but also didn't get a lot done. Don't think serotonin is my main problem, or at least not the only one.
5-HTP helped like SJW but I was afraid to take it all the time and got a rash from it. Also like SJW, it didn't help with drive, motivation, or energy.
Re: dietary change – eating more protein, especially red meat, has helped.
Regarding therapy, I don't go on a regular basis. Even though I think it could theoretically help with the right therapist, I'm a little fed up with the entire therapy establishment right now. I think it needs to be revamped. Not enough therapists know how to think outside the box, so to speak. I especially get tired of those who just listen and don't say too much in response. That doesn't help me. I need something more practical. I actually think ADD coaching would help me a lot more and am considering that. Lately I have started to feel better after realizing I have most likely had undiagnosed ADD most of my life, which accounts for some of my problems. Just that realization made me feel 30% less depressed.
But therapy did help me see the basic problems in my family, which I think is a good start. And if we had had family therapy when I was a kid I believe I would have had a much better experience growing up and not gotten depressed the way I did. I will probably go back to therapy at some point anyway--as at least with the right therapist it can provide support.
>Also helps if they'll admit to and look for illness like Bipolar Disorder so they can perhaps catch that earlier with meds, too. We'll see if that makes sense, i guess in the future. autism is falling into this. seizures. fascinating.
Agree. Hope they look for atypical ADD in kids too and consider it not a disorder but just the brain functioning in a different way than what society has so far considered normal.
>But even before the night wore on and he was tipsy, I realized knew more about the disorder and treatment options than he did.
Not surprised. Most regular posters on this site probably know more about mental health conditions and treatments (at least about theirs) than many if not most shrinks of any stripe.
Re the direction of mental health professionals/treatment, I wish psychiatrists were more affordable (I don't have health insurance and even when I do don't like having my choices restricted by it), and would like to see therapists try new things and not use a one size fits all approach for every client.
Posted by tabitha on June 25, 2002, at 0:56:34
In reply to Re: thoughts on this » tabitha, posted by krazy kat on June 24, 2002, at 13:38:36
> But these aren't other people's issues for us -- we're right in the middle of it.
<snip!>Oh, I agree. By "other people's issues" I meant the possible psychological issues that might make a person take a strong stance on either side of the neurology vs psychology debate. I was just trying to make fun of myself a little for being so eager to psychoanalyze other people.
-tabitha
Posted by LostBoyinNC1 on June 25, 2002, at 23:20:38
In reply to neurology vs. psychology a.k.a World War III on PB, posted by mist on June 22, 2002, at 23:14:21
> I don't understand the neurology vs. psychology debate. Why do some people think they're mutually exclusive? For example, I'm depressed. Depression is a neurological condition in that it affects the nervous system. But what if I say my symptoms are much worse, or the depression is more incapacitating, on the weekends? (Which is often the case for me.) That's due to psychological factors, which theoretically can be helped through therapy . This is just one example. (Although I understand the frustration I've heard some express about therapists/psychologists. It can be very hard to find the right therapy, a good --and affordable-- therapist, and one that's right for you.)
>
> I've been depressed pretty consistently since childhood. But when I was in high school I went to stay for a while in another city, with another family, under totally different circumstances, and my depression lifted. It came back when I returned to my family. So how can anyone say there is nothing to environment/psychology when it comes to depression? I have had severe, incapacitating depression that has ruined my life but it's responsive to changes in my life. The problem is that these changes are hard to make because some are results of factors beyond my control and others are things I can't do because of being depressed. (And one of the things that's very hard for me to do is formulate a plan for getting support and treatment and following through with it—this is also because I have some ADD traits.)
>
> I'm not anti-med. I would take ADs if they had less side effects—I'm very sensitive to them. And I believe bipolar is much more likely to be purely biological in origin (I always assume it is in fact) than that all unipolar depressions are.
>
> It's also clear when you look at blood pressure that psychological and environmental factors cause physiological changes. Stress can cause high blood pressure. Stress can be a result both of one's environment, circumstances, events, and the way one deals with them.
>
> Just some thoughts on "the war."First of all Id like to say to you that your depression cant be too awful bad if you dont take meds. You do not sound like you have a firm grounding in the basic understanding that there is an "issues" kind of mental illness and then there is the other thing...total cognitive deterioration, severe sleeping deterioration, etc. You need to realize that when I discuss Neurology vs the mental health thing, I am always keeping in mind SEVERE mental illness. Im not talking about dysthymia, mild depression or "issues." Im talking about the kind of severe mental illness that causes severe sleeping deterioration and cognitive deterioration. Thats the kind of mental illness that can easily lead to chronic vocational disability and subsequent homelessness left untreated.
Severe mental illness leads to HOMELESSNESS eventually if it is not treated successfully. Severe mental illness has nothing to do with "issues" or psychology...its a brain problem.
Now that Ive gotten that basic tenant locked down in concrete (Im referring to severe mental illness in my discussions) we can come back to the Neurology vs the mental health field debate. Since its becoming more and more clear every single day that the major forms of mental illness are brain based illnesses...even psychiatrists admit this now...why do we even have psychiatry anymore? Why not move the whole entire thing lock, stock and barrel over to Neurology? The Neurologists could take the diagnosis and treatment of severe mental illness to a new level, as Neurologists are the true brain science doctors. Maybe Neurologists could do a better job at developing improved diagnostic technologies, like brain scans. Neurologists already use brain scans to dx parkinsons, alzheimers, dementia and other classic "neurological" conditions. The same could be done for severe mental illness.
As Ive mentioned countless times in the past on this and other boards, we are living in a high tech era. Other branches of medicine are moving forward and developing all sorts of high tech ways to diagnose and treat illness. You dont see this as much in psychiatry...some...but not as much as we need. I personally feel the only way we will ever get the sort of real basic and thorough scientific research into severe mental illness would be if Neurology took the job over from Psychiatry.
Psychiatry is low tech...its crude, subjective and based on psychology.
Neurology is high tech...its very scientific and its the only true branch of medicine that focuses on the brain and central nervous system.
Its time to get rid of psychiatry, merge the duties of handling the severely mentally ill into Neurology. And let all the people with "issues" type mental illness problems go back to the basics and start going to psychologists and social workers so they can "talk."
Talking does very little if anything to treat severe mental illness.
Posted by LostBoyinNC1 on June 25, 2002, at 23:28:10
In reply to thoughts on this, posted by tabitha on June 23, 2002, at 3:34:36
> I agree, it's pointless to make this issue an either/or. Doing so just shows that old cognitive distortion, black & white thinking.
>
> I suspect people on the extreme pro-neurology side are profoundly uncomfortable with the murky, personal, subjective, "soft" science of psychology. Or they've had bad personal experiences with therapists.
>
>Or they have been misdiagnosed by some social worker and subsequently placed on the wrong class of psychiatry meds which made their life a living hell. Do you realize how subjective mental illness diagnosing is? Do you realize how important it is to get a correct and individualized dx? So you can be placed on the correct kind of medication?
People are misdiagnosed all the time in psychiatry and placed on the wrong drugs, overmedicated, etc. They are misdiagnosed unipolar when they are really bipolar...or vice versa. The reason for this is too much reliance on psychology in diagnosing. Its too subjective.
People with severe forms of mental illness would be better off if Neurology was diagnosing and treating them, rather than the "mental health" field of psychiatry, social work and psychology. We'd be better off if our severely mentally ill were thought of exactly the same as epileptics, people with parkinsons, people with alzheimers disease, etc.
Posted by LostBoyinNC1 on June 25, 2002, at 23:30:19
In reply to Re: thoughts on this » tabitha, posted by krazy kat on June 24, 2002, at 13:38:36
> But these aren't other people's issues for us -- we're right in the middle of it.
>
> Bipolar Disorder and Major Depression are neurological/biochemical illnesses that are exacerbated by stress, etc. the same way heart disease and migraines are.
>
> It's that simple, imho.
Thats a good way to put it
>
> - kk
Posted by mist on June 25, 2002, at 23:54:21
In reply to Re: why is it WW3?, posted by LostBoyinNC1 on June 25, 2002, at 23:20:38
As I stated above I called it a "war" because the tone of some posts on the subject remind me of grenades and because it tends to generate more heated debate than any other issue here. I was referring to the posts of more than one poster over the two years I've posted here.
> First of all Id like to say to you that your depression cant be too awful bad if you dont take meds.
Please don't tell tell me how bad my depression is or isn't. People can be very depressed without taking meds. This is the problem I have with some of the arguments I hear. Telling others what their experience is when you haven't lived their life. You know nothing about me but the few details I've posted here. I am actually not as depressed currently as I was last year when I had major depression and my number one fear was, yes, homelessness.
> Psychiatry is low tech...its crude, subjective and based on psychology.
If this is how you feel I hope you won't have to see anymore psychiatrists or psychologists, only neurologists and that science in this area will advance the way you'd like it to.
Do what works for you and makes sense to you, and allow others to do the same without discounting their reality and trashing their beliefs.
Posted by LostBoyinNC1 on June 26, 2002, at 0:03:11
In reply to neurology vs. psychology a.k.a World War III on PB, posted by mist on June 22, 2002, at 23:14:21
There are several reasons why the severely mentally ill are not being treated by Neurology vs mental health field. These are:
1) Its simply not possible because the basic brain research does not exist yet. Psychiatry doesnt do much basic biological brain research into severe mental illness.
2) Getting this kind of high tech, advanced brain research to understand mental illness would be very costly and expensive and our society does not consider mental illness to be important enough to spend large sums of money on. By contrast, other diseases and illnesses get tons of money spent on them for research...and its still not enough.
3) Our society does not consider severe mental illness to be "real" or physical. Our society considers mental illness to be "psychological" or "in the mind." Until these kinds of attitudes are totally broken down and destroyed forever, there will never be the aggressive scientific research drive to break mental illness down into pure, hard biological science, like say Neurologists are doing with parkinsons disease, epilepsy, alzheimers or other neuro illnesses.
4) Mental illness is last on our country's list of priorities. The severely mentally ill are "invisible" we dont vote, we dont matter.
5) A lot of people (the majority) cant handle the hard cold truth. That severe mental illness is really really bad and its based in your brain. People are scared of severe mental illness...most dont even like talking about it. They are scared of it because there is not much that can be done about it medically. And the reason there is not much that can be done about it is cause we as a society still think of physical, brain based illnesses (mental illness) as psychological problems.
The whole mental health field is based on a lie. That severe mental illness is a "psychological" problem. The diagnosis and treatment of severely mentally ill people should be divorced totally from social programs and psychology.
Posted by mist on June 26, 2002, at 0:19:08
In reply to Re: neurology vs. psychology a.k.a World War III on PB, posted by LostBoyinNC1 on June 26, 2002, at 0:03:11
> Getting this kind of high tech, advanced brain research to understand mental illness would be very costly and expensive and our society does not consider mental illness to be important enough to spend large sums of money on.
I agree with this but don't believe psychology is to blame. The problem has to do with skewed social priorities.
> Mental illness is last on our country's list of priorities.
Yes, this is a serious problem. There needs to be more funding for research as well as treatment.
Posted by LostBoyinNC1 on June 26, 2002, at 0:20:08
In reply to Re: why is it WW3?, posted by mist on June 25, 2002, at 23:54:21
> As I stated above I called it a "war" because the tone of some posts on the subject remind me of grenades and because it tends to generate more heated debate than any other issue here. I was referring to the posts of more than one poster over the two years I've posted here.
Well, frankly I do see it as a war of sorts. Why? Because a lot of severely mentally ill people are slipping thru the cracks and not achieving remission. Many severely mentally ill people are not able to get out of it even with existing psychiatric treatments. Many are disabled. I personally believe much of this is due to shoddy methods of diagnosis and drugs and treatments which dont work as good as they are advertised. I personally believe that more people could be SAVED from a life of misery and disability if our society thought of mental illness as a regular physical medical problem...no different than say, alzheimers disease or parkinsons.
>
> > First of all Id like to say to you that your depression cant be too awful bad if you dont take meds.
>
> Please don't tell tell me how bad my depression is or isn't. People can be very depressed without taking meds. This is the problem I have with some of the arguments I hear. Telling others what their experience is when you haven't lived their life. You know nothing about me but the few details I've posted here. I am actually not as depressed currently as I was last year when I had major depression and my number one fear was, yes, homelessness.
Well, all I know is without meds I would have been dead a long time ago. I dont know how a person dxed with "major depression" could even function without meds. How do you hold a job untreated? I dont understand that.>
> > Psychiatry is low tech...its crude, subjective and based on psychology.
>
> If this is how you feel I hope you won't have to see anymore psychiatrists or psychologists, only neurologists and that science in this area will advance the way you'd like it to.No...unfortunately Neurology is a long, long way from absorbing the duties of treating the mentally ill. I wish it was the other way. I believe more severely mentally ill could be helped were their diagnosis and treatment more respectable, scientific and Neurology-like and less mental health field "psycho-shit talk" like.
>
> Do what works for you and makes sense to you, and allow others to do the same without discounting their reality and trashing their beliefs.Im not doing it to discount your beliefs. Im doing it because many severe forms of mental illnes are not as treatable as psychiatry would like us to believe. Many severely mentally ill slip thru the cracks of life and are leading half assed, marginal lives. You cant fix people with severe brain diseases with psychology ideas and a few crude drugs and crude low tech methods of diagnosis.
Severe mental illness is extremely complicated and is above the heads of most psychiatrists. Most psychiatrists dont even really know whats medically wrong with their patients. Thats cause there are no tests...nothing. How can you diagnose serious brain based conditions with no medical tests?
Its ridiculous and the whole thing needs to be handed over to Neurology.
Posted by LostBoyinNC1 on June 26, 2002, at 0:37:39
In reply to Re: why is it WW3?, posted by LostBoyinNC1 on June 25, 2002, at 23:20:38
Mist, another thing Id like to add is the reason WHY the severely mentally ill tend to end up homeless when they are untreated. Its simple. People who have severe forms of mental illness (severe depression, manic depression, schizophrenia) generally have serious cognitive problems. Problems with being able to think clearly. If you cant think clearly...you cant hold a job. If you cant hold a job you cant make money and earn a living. That leads to poverty and in many cases, eventual homelessness.
Many of the severely mentally ill homeless people got that way cause their thinking is so disordered that there is no way they can hold even the most basic menial job. They are confused all the time, unable to concentrate or remember things. How can you function like that? The answer is...you cant function in that sort of condition.
Now Id like to ask you something. Do you think this sort of mental illness, where the problem is severe deterioration in being able to think clearly...is a brain condition or a "psychological" or "emotional" condition? I personally believe its pure Neurology stuff. How are you going to get someone who cant think clearly back to normal without medical treatment? Its impossible.
Posted by mist on June 26, 2002, at 0:39:15
In reply to Re: why is it WW3?, posted by LostBoyinNC1 on June 26, 2002, at 0:20:08
> How do you hold a job untreated? I dont understand that.
I didn't work. I had some savings, which I lived off of and entirely depleted. That's why I was afraid of ending up homeless. Toward the end of last year I started feeling better (in part due to taking 5-HTP which fortunately had enough of an effect on me to get me out of the most incapacitating level of depression). I actually think I should have been taking meds before but for a variety of reasons I didn't, and am not sure they'd have helped me anyway (am not thrilled with what's out there currently either).
> Its ridiculous and the whole thing needs to be handed over to Neurology.
As long as neurology knows what they're doing ...
Posted by mist on June 26, 2002, at 0:54:12
In reply to Re: why is it WW3?, posted by LostBoyinNC1 on June 26, 2002, at 0:37:39
I'm not anti-med although I think they need to be improved. Do I think they are the only thing that would help in every case of major depression? No. (But in bipolar yes, as far as I know, although I know less about that.) I wouldn't deny anyone in major depression meds though, I just think the problem for some is more complex and that other things might help them.
I do believe some depressions are caused by environment and that psychological factors are significant. But even in these neurology is involved--depression is a disorder affecting the nervous system, regardless of what causes or alleviates it.
> Now Id like to ask you something. Do you think this sort of mental illness, where the problem is severe deterioration in being able to think clearly...is a brain condition or a "psychological" or "emotional" condition? I personally believe its pure Neurology stuff. How are you going to get someone who cant think clearly back to normal without medical treatment? Its impossible.
Posted by LostBoyinNC1 on June 26, 2002, at 1:50:43
In reply to Re: why is it WW3?, posted by mist on June 26, 2002, at 0:54:12
> I'm not anti-med although I think they need to be improved. Do I think they are the only thing that would help in every case of major depression? No. (But in bipolar yes, as far as I know, although I know less about that.) I wouldn't deny anyone in major depression meds though, I just think the problem for some is more complex and that other things might help them.
>
> I do believe some depressions are caused by environment and that psychological factors are significant. But even in these neurology is involved--depression is a disorder affecting the nervous system, regardless of what causes or alleviates it.
>
>
> > Now Id like to ask you something. Do you think this sort of mental illness, where the problem is severe deterioration in being able to think clearly...is a brain condition or a "psychological" or "emotional" condition? I personally believe its pure Neurology stuff. How are you going to get someone who cant think clearly back to normal without medical treatment? Its impossible.
Why is bipolar neurological but not major depression? Ive got major depression...very severe and I KNOW its neurological. Ive had psychiatrists tell me it "causes changes in my brain." Major depression where you develop severe deterioration in sleeping, lose your appetite severely and lose weight without trying, lose your sex drive and deterioriate cognitively is definitely Neurological in origin.You seem to have been influenced too much by some psychology people. Your beliefs mirror those of Dr. David Burns, author of the CBT book "Feeling Good." Burns says in his book there is no hard evidence that major depression is physically based, but he quickly backs down on manic depression and says thats biological. He is stupid for saying that and he ruins an otherwise good book by saying stuff like that.
All severe mental illness is neurological, to include the anxiety disorders. OCD is very neurological.
5HTP wouldnt even begin to touch my depression.
Posted by mist on June 26, 2002, at 8:57:37
In reply to Re: why is it WW3?, posted by LostBoyinNC1 on June 26, 2002, at 1:50:43
> Why is bipolar neurological but not major depression? Ive got major depression...very severe and I KNOW its neurological.
I never said your depression wasn't neurological.
> You seem to have been influenced too much by some psychology people. Your beliefs mirror those of Dr. David Burns, author of the CBT book "Feeling Good."I don't like Burns that much. His techniques haven't helped me. Although I do think his point of view is worth considering, which I believe about those who think the opposite of him, too.
> All severe mental illness is neurological, to include the anxiety disorders. OCD is very neurological.
Yes, as I said before I agree with this. Even not so severe mental illness is neurological in that it affects the nervous system.
> 5HTP wouldnt even begin to touch my depression.
Different people respond differently to different substances.
And you may be much more depressed than I was. Neither of us can know that because we don't know each other and haven't spoken with each other's doctors. Not everyone experiences major depression in the same way. The diagnosis is based on a set of criteria and if you meet them, you have it. You also simply may be judging someone's experience without knowing what they went through, how they felt, and how it affected their ability to function.
Posted by Krazy Kat on June 26, 2002, at 15:08:46
In reply to Re: why is it WW3?, posted by mist on June 26, 2002, at 8:57:37
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.