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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by shar on May 18, 2003, at 22:24:22
I'm wondering if anybody out there has a good definition for passive aggression? After all the self-help, codependency, 12-step programs/books I've read over the years, I'm having a hard time coming up with a very clear idea as to what it really is. In some cases it seems to be ANYTHING someone does, and in others it actually has parameters about the way anger is expressed.
Any ideas?
Thanks,
Shar
Posted by coral on May 19, 2003, at 6:55:21
In reply to What is passive aggression?, posted by shar on May 18, 2003, at 22:24:22
As I understand it, passive/aggressive behavior is overt agreement/covert refusal as a pattern.
Mary: John, will you mow the lawn on Tuesday?
John: Sure.
On Wednesday, Mary says, "John, you agreed you'd mow the lawn on Tuesday."
John: "I forgot."
This one instance, by itself, could be simple forgetfulness. However, if there is a repeated behavior of agreement and refusal, it's p/a behavior.
The statement, "I forgot" is two-fold. First, John "forgot" to do what he said he'd do, "forgot" to tell Mary he didn't do it and there's a 'helplessness' in the forgetfulness. "Geez,Mary, I forgot. How can you be mad at me?" Or, other examples include the lawn mower broke,("Geez, Mary, how can you be mad because the lawn mower broke?")...there's no responsibility on John's part to get the lawn mower fixed or tell Mary he couldn't comply.
P/A behavior is commonly a control mechanism WHILE avoiding conflict. John agrees to something he doesn't want to do (rather than saying "No" or negotiating a different action) and something consistently happens that prevents him from complying.
Another variant is John will mow the lawn on Wednesday; again, control that he'll do it when he chooses.
A really nasty variant is when John's change in plans he's agreed to, causes difficulty for Mary, such as not making it to the dry cleaners in time to pick up her evening gown for tonight's dance.
One hallmark of P/A is that the person won't bring up a difficult topic (not wanting to mow), and acts attacked when the other person does bring it up.
It's also presumed that the passive person in a relationship is actually the power person.
My two cents...
Coral
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on May 19, 2003, at 11:14:25
In reply to Re: What is passive aggression?, posted by coral on May 19, 2003, at 6:55:21
Posted by daizy on May 20, 2003, at 6:11:06
In reply to Re: What is passive aggression?, posted by coral on May 19, 2003, at 6:55:21
"P/A behavior is commonly a control mechanism WHILE avoiding conflict. John agrees to something he doesn't want to do (rather than saying "No" or negotiating a different action) and something consistently happens that prevents him from complying"I was thinking about my behaviour lately last night, and I think Im behaving more and more like what's mentioned above. When my friends ask me to go out, I say yes I will, eventhough I know I wont, but I say yes because I'd rather that, than having to explain to them that I really cant go out. Is that the same type of thing? I dont know, Im fed up of always saying I will do things eventhough I have no intention to do them. I feel like Im letting myself down, and alienating people around me. Im getting more and more misunderstood and lonely.
Posted by coral on May 20, 2003, at 7:54:21
In reply to Re: Question????, posted by daizy on May 20, 2003, at 6:11:06
In my opinion, that's avoidance behavior, not P/A behavior.
Posted by shar on May 20, 2003, at 21:42:51
In reply to Re: What is passive aggression?, posted by coral on May 19, 2003, at 6:55:21
Yes, an excellent and wonderfully concise description and definition. I think the last part was what I was really thinking about...expressing anger in a passive aggressive way as in the evening gown example you gave.
John doesn't want to mow the lawn. He agrees to mow it on Tuesday. So, he's unhappy at 'having' to mow it. Therefore, he mows it Friday and finishes up 30 minutes after the dry cleaner closes.
That's so beautiful.
I still wonder, though, isn't there a way to express anger ...oh, I know, VERBALLY being passive aggressive? Maybe something like I'm ticked at Mommie Dearest, don't want to go help her clean her house, but I say I will, and then come up with something nasty to say to her that could be interpreted as hostile, but isn't worded that way. Like, maybe, "I KNOW you need a LOT of help with your house." which implies she isn't a good housekeeper, of course, but would be hard to prove that's what I meant....?
Shar
Posted by coral on May 21, 2003, at 3:41:25
In reply to Re: What is passive aggression? » coral, posted by shar on May 20, 2003, at 21:42:51
Dear Shar,
I think that would be a brave game for passive aggressor to play because of the risk of the recipient saying, "What'd you mean by that?" I'm sure it happens and the aggressor says, "Oh, nothing."
On the other hand, I think the passive aggressor tends to agree to the "letter" of an agreement and not the spirit. Husband thinks wife spends too much, especially using credit cards and asks the wife not to do it. Then, she starts cashing checks and spends the cash. When confronted, the wife says "But, honey, I didn't use a credit card once."
To me, one of the hallmarks of p/a is the avoidance of conflict while still doing whatever s/he wants or not doing whatever, leaving it up to the other person to bring up the disagreement. In my experience, serious p/a's tend to be very pleasant to be around, charming, and flat-out devious.
Coral
Posted by stjames on May 21, 2003, at 21:46:26
In reply to Re: What is passive aggression?, posted by coral on May 19, 2003, at 6:55:21
> As I understand it, passive/aggressive behavior is overt agreement/covert refusal as a pattern.
Excellent discriuption ! It describes my Mom to a tee. My analyst pointed this out years ago. The key is that the P/A is in control, but covert.I demand poeple take responsibility for actions
and themselves, very anti-P/A. Poor mom !
One day I decided to gift mom with the tens of thousands of $$ they spent on my thearpy, and verbally grabbed her by the sholders and shook some sence into her. She refused to beleive she was in control of the family till I pointed out hundereds of times Mom and Dad disagreed on major stuff and we always did what mom wanted & that we got to this point by passive means.
Finally mom got it, that after being passivally
in control for 40 yrs of marrage, she could put down
the passive BS and just say "This is what we are going to do" and do it. Dad might blow hard, but he was well trained and always fell in line.I think that mom, deep down, knew she was the power person, and it seems to really helped to have someone acknowlage this point.
However, P/A is about anger so mom had to still
express that in a P/A manner. She always was forgetfull, but not about her stuff. Meals for my dad, over the years, have progressed to bird portions. Mom likes on cigs a coffee, show food was not a big issue.Now that mom is in her late 70's she is becomming
forgetful due to age, and not P/A. For me, having seen this behavior all my life, I have to try hard to not get mad at her as my gut reaction is she is turning her very annoying A/P on me. She forgot my birthday 2 years ago and I was quite mad for months, as I had seen this done to my dad many times. It took me some time to realize mom was just getting old, most likely I was denying this
point, too.Hmmm... I often wonder how it must be to have controled people all these years with forgetfulness, only to find she cannot control
forgetfullness any more & it gets turned on her.
Posted by shar on May 22, 2003, at 18:00:27
In reply to Re: What is passive aggression?, posted by coral on May 21, 2003, at 3:41:25
Posted by 2sense on May 31, 2003, at 14:00:40
In reply to Re: What is passive aggression?, posted by coral on May 19, 2003, at 6:55:21
> As I understand it, passive/aggressive behavior is overt agreement/covert refusal as a pattern.
>
> Mary: John, will you mow the lawn on Tuesday?
>
> John: Sure.
>
> On Wednesday, Mary says, "John, you agreed you'd mow the lawn on Tuesday."
>
> John: "I forgot."
>
> This one instance, by itself, could be simple forgetfulness. However, if there is a repeated behavior of agreement and refusal, it's p/a behavior.
>
> The statement, "I forgot" is two-fold. First, John "forgot" to do what he said he'd do, "forgot" to tell Mary he didn't do it and there's a 'helplessness' in the forgetfulness. "Geez,Mary, I forgot. How can you be mad at me?" Or, other examples include the lawn mower broke,("Geez, Mary, how can you be mad because the lawn mower broke?")...there's no responsibility on John's part to get the lawn mower fixed or tell Mary he couldn't comply.
>
> P/A behavior is commonly a control mechanism WHILE avoiding conflict. John agrees to something he doesn't want to do (rather than saying "No" or negotiating a different action) and something consistently happens that prevents him from complying.
>
> Another variant is John will mow the lawn on Wednesday; again, control that he'll do it when he chooses.
>
> A really nasty variant is when John's change in plans he's agreed to, causes difficulty for Mary, such as not making it to the dry cleaners in time to pick up her evening gown for tonight's dance.
>
> One hallmark of P/A is that the person won't bring up a difficult topic (not wanting to mow), and acts attacked when the other person does bring it up.
>
> It's also presumed that the passive person in a relationship is actually the power person.
>
> My two cents...
>
> CoralBINGO !!! I am married to a PA and he says that what he does is * not * provoking AND I am a nag.
A nag can be someone who was told N times that something would get done and then doesn't do it, and as you wrote so very well, does the PA dance of deflection, indignation, gas lighting, oh the list goes on. So the 'nag' chooses their battles, so to speak ... but the true PA steps up to the plate each and every time ... it is exhausting ... if there are children involved and/or the PA is the sole bread winner well you are all very bright and insightful ... I suspect I am just preaching to the choir ...
Just my 2sense :-)
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