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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by galkeepinon on September 18, 2003, at 5:12:21
The action required to sustain human life is primarily intellectual,
everything man needs has to be discovered by his mind and produced
by his effort.*Ayn Rand
Posted by DSCH on September 20, 2003, at 15:05:34
In reply to An Ayn Rand Quote , posted by galkeepinon on September 18, 2003, at 5:12:21
Hmmmm. Not quite sure I like that one too much.
More fundamental to reason is will and the desire to continue to exist. Reason without these is a head without a body.
How about this...
"Philosophy is like trying to open a safe with a combination lock: each little adjustment of the dials seems to achieve nothing, only when everything is in place does the door open."
-Ludwig WittgensteinEverything requires the right combination. ;-)
Posted by galkeepinon on September 22, 2003, at 18:27:46
In reply to May I counter with some Wittgenstein ;-) » galkeepinon, posted by DSCH on September 20, 2003, at 15:05:34
>>>>How about this...
>
> "Philosophy is like trying to open a safe with a combination lock: each little adjustment of the dials seems to achieve nothing, only when everything is in place does the door open."
>
> -Ludwig Wittgenstein
>
> Everything requires the right combination. ;-)***Sounds GREAT to me;) Yep, EVERYTHING requires the right combination:-) I will remember 'only when everything is in place does the door open'
;)
Thanks:-)
Posted by sarita0001 on September 22, 2003, at 22:50:13
In reply to An Ayn Rand Quote , posted by galkeepinon on September 18, 2003, at 5:12:21
I like that. Makes a lot of sense.
Posted by noa on September 23, 2003, at 4:26:35
In reply to May I counter with some Wittgenstein ;-) » galkeepinon, posted by DSCH on September 20, 2003, at 15:05:34
I like the Wittgenstein quote, too.
Here's my little addition:
When you finally get the combo right and open the door, you discover that inside the safe, in addition to some new and hopefully meaningful discovery, is another safe with a new combination to figure out. Life is essentially a series of safes within safes, a series that only ends when life does. One of the tricks is to learn to accept the process and maybe even learn to enjoy it some.
Posted by fallsfall on September 23, 2003, at 7:13:50
In reply to Re: May I counter with some Wittgenstein ;-), posted by noa on September 23, 2003, at 4:26:35
Posted by DSCH on September 23, 2003, at 12:27:03
In reply to Re: May I counter with some Wittgenstein ;-), posted by noa on September 23, 2003, at 4:26:35
> I like the Wittgenstein quote, too.
>
> Here's my little addition:
>
> When you finally get the combo right and open the door, you discover that inside the safe, in addition to some new and hopefully meaningful discovery, is another safe with a new combination to figure out. Life is essentially a series of safes within safes, a series that only ends when life does. One of the tricks is to learn to accept the process and maybe even learn to enjoy it some.That's eerie... that's a similar impression to ones that have hit me twice since I made my first self-treatment breakthrough in August.
I couldn't shake the feeling verbalized by Neo in Matrix Reloaded after his discussion with the Architect: "there's another level of controls".
Posted by DSCH on September 23, 2003, at 12:46:40
In reply to Re: May I counter with some Wittgenstein ;-) » DSCH, posted by galkeepinon on September 22, 2003, at 18:27:46
We're lucky in that for many situations we can have the door swing open part way for a moment and then shut again when we are getting close. :-)
Posted by jay on September 23, 2003, at 18:15:29
In reply to Re: May I counter with some Wittgenstein ;-), posted by DSCH on September 23, 2003, at 12:46:40
> We're lucky in that for many situations we can >have the door swing open part way for a moment >and then shut again when we are getting close. :-)
Pardon my Nihilism...;-)
"Like the fly on the wheel, who says,
"What a lot of dust we're raising."
Are you under the illusion
That you're part of this scheme?
Seems like a lifetime ago
You could look with pride
On your world of dreams-What is the meaning of this?
And the stars look down
-What are you trying to do?
And the stars look down
-Was it something I said?
And the stars look down
-Something you'd like me to do?
And the stars look down....
Posted by zeugma on September 23, 2003, at 21:17:50
In reply to Re: May I counter with some Wittgenstein ;-) » DSCH, posted by jay on September 23, 2003, at 18:15:29
> > We're lucky in that for many situations we can >have the door swing open part way for a moment >and then shut again when we are getting close. :-)
>
> Pardon my Nihilism...;-)
>
> "Like the fly on the wheel, who says,
> "What a lot of dust we're raising."
> Are you under the illusion
> That you're part of this scheme?
> Seems like a lifetime ago
> You could look with pride
> On your world of dreams
>
> -What is the meaning of this?
> And the stars look down
> -What are you trying to do?
> And the stars look down
> -Was it something I said?
> And the stars look down
> -Something you'd like me to do?
> And the stars look down....
>You'd like another of Wittgenstein's epigrams- "Philosophy shows the fly the way out of the fly-bottle."
>
>
>
Posted by DSCH on September 23, 2003, at 22:21:28
In reply to Re: May I counter with some Wittgenstein ;-) » DSCH, posted by jay on September 23, 2003, at 18:15:29
> > We're lucky in that for many situations we can >have the door swing open part way for a moment >and then shut again when we are getting close. :-)
>
> Pardon my Nihilism...;-)
>
> "Like the fly on the wheel, who says,
> "What a lot of dust we're raising."
> Are you under the illusion
> That you're part of this scheme?
> Seems like a lifetime ago
> You could look with pride
> On your world of dreams
>
> -What is the meaning of this?
> And the stars look down
> -What are you trying to do?
> And the stars look down
> -Was it something I said?
> And the stars look down
> -Something you'd like me to do?
> And the stars look down....Keep turning those tumblers. The stars refuse to give hints on the combination. ;-)
Posted by jay on September 24, 2003, at 12:45:45
In reply to Re: May I counter with some Wittgenstein ;-) » jay, posted by DSCH on September 23, 2003, at 22:21:28
> > > We're lucky in that for many situations we can >have the door swing open part way for a moment >and then shut again when we are getting close. :-)
> >
> > Pardon my Nihilism...;-)
> >
> > "Like the fly on the wheel, who says,
> > "What a lot of dust we're raising."
> > Are you under the illusion
> > That you're part of this scheme?
> > Seems like a lifetime ago
> > You could look with pride
> > On your world of dreams
> >
> > -What is the meaning of this?
> > And the stars look down
> > -What are you trying to do?
> > And the stars look down
> > -Was it something I said?
> > And the stars look down
> > -Something you'd like me to do?
> > And the stars look down....
>
> Keep turning those tumblers. The stars refuse >to give hints on the combination. ;-)Great..thank you..that was an *excellent* response! :-) In the words of a great songwritter.."Kick at the darkness 'till it bleeds daylight." Bruce Cockburn.."Lovers In A Dangerous Time." 1984.
or..
"The night has a thousand saxophones...
So get out there and rock...and roll the bones.."Oh..I love this thread..:)
Peace and best,
Jay
Posted by DSCH on September 25, 2003, at 1:01:30
In reply to Re: May I counter with some Wittgenstein ;-) » DSCH, posted by jay on September 24, 2003, at 12:45:45
> > > > We're lucky in that for many situations we can >have the door swing open part way for a moment >and then shut again when we are getting close. :-)
> > >
> > > Pardon my Nihilism...;-)
> > >
> > > "Like the fly on the wheel, who says,
> > > "What a lot of dust we're raising."
> > > Are you under the illusion
> > > That you're part of this scheme?
> > > Seems like a lifetime ago
> > > You could look with pride
> > > On your world of dreams
> > >
> > > -What is the meaning of this?
> > > And the stars look down
> > > -What are you trying to do?
> > > And the stars look down
> > > -Was it something I said?
> > > And the stars look down
> > > -Something you'd like me to do?
> > > And the stars look down....
> >
> > Keep turning those tumblers. The stars refuse >to give hints on the combination. ;-)
>
> Great..thank you..that was an *excellent* response! :-) In the words of a great songwritter.."Kick at the darkness 'till it bleeds daylight." Bruce Cockburn.."Lovers In A Dangerous Time." 1984.
>
> or..
>
> "The night has a thousand saxophones...
> So get out there and rock...and roll the bones.."
>
> Oh..I love this thread..:)
>
> Peace and best,
> JayMay I "turn down the volume a little bit, brother?" ;-)
Tao Te Ching, from Verse 64...
The Sage desires that which has no desires
_and teaches that which cannot be taughtHe does not value the objects held by few
_but only that which is held by everyoneHe guides men back to their own treasure
_and helps all things come to know
_the truth they have forgottenAll this he does without a stir
Posted by DSCH on September 25, 2003, at 1:17:41
In reply to Re: May I counter with some Wittgenstein ;-) » DSCH, posted by jay on September 24, 2003, at 12:45:45
Or to keep more in the vein of Wittgenstein, does a safecracker crank up a boom box while on the job? No. He seeks silence and solitude and brings a stethoscope so as to better hear the responses the mechanism makes to his work which is hidden from his eyes. :-) It is dispassionate, delicate, and unhurried activity.
Posted by noa on September 26, 2003, at 9:21:38
In reply to And now some Lao Tzu? :-) » jay, posted by DSCH on September 25, 2003, at 1:01:30
The action required to sustain human life is primarily intellectual,
everything man needs has to be discovered by his mind and produced
by his effort.*Ayn Rand
*******
"Philosophy is like trying to open a safe with a combination lock: each little adjustment of the dials seems to achieve nothing, only when everything is in place does the door open."-Ludwig Wittgenstein
*******
Everything requires the right combination. ;-)*******
Or to keep more in the vein of Wittgenstein, does a safecracker crank up a boom box while on the job? No. He seeks silence and solitude and brings a stethoscope so as to better hear the responses the mechanism makes to his work which is hidden from his eyes. :-) It is dispassionate, delicate, and unhurried activity.*******
When you finally get the combo right and open the door, you discover that inside the safe, in addition to some new and hopefully meaningful discovery, is another safe with a new combination to figure out. Life is essentially a series of safes within safes, a series that only ends when life does. One of the tricks is to learn to accept the process and maybe even learn to enjoy it some.*******
Tao Te Ching, from Verse 64...The Sage desires that which has no desires
_and teaches that which cannot be taughtHe does not value the objects held by few
_but only that which is held by everyoneHe guides men back to their own treasure
_and helps all things come to know
_the truth they have forgottenAll this he does without a stir
*********************************************
I like this thread, too. It is thought-provoking.
I guess I think that a *balance* is key--a little Ayn Rand, a little Wittgenstein, a little Lao Tzu, etc.
The Rand quote makes me think of intense pursuit of "Truth"--a chase of it, like a detective intently putting the puzzle peices together, thinking, thinking, thinking, with a lot of confidence in our ability to use reason to get 'there'. This quote feels very linear to me--we have the power to reason from one clue to the next until we reach our target. It feels like it implies lots of confidence in our individual intellectual power.
The Wittgenstein quote makes me think of the detective coming to accept that getting all the pieces of the puzzle together requires patience and perhaps the detective acknowledges that it isn't always a chase but sometimes one has to rest from the pursuit and wait for the other puzzle peices to make themselves available. It is kind of a letting go. I don't know why, but I imagine this process as somewhat less linear than what the Rand quote evokes for me. It seems to acknowledge the mystery of the world, beyond the individual. Perhaps it also lends itself to more teamwork--a system of parts that must all work together to accomplish a goal. In this team/system, the detective is the team leader/captain.
Then, the Lao Tzu quote brings in the eastern approach that maybe is not about getting our reason in gear for a chase of "Truth", but about quieting down and opening up to what "Truths" are all around us if we can be calm and open enough to let them in. This is more of a 'just being' in the moment, as opposed to focusing on that thing we are pursuing and hope to find in the future. This is far from linear. It feels like a complex system and the person is not the team leader/captain, but just a part of the larger system. It feels like more acceptance of the mysteries of the universe and a letting go of the idea that we can achieve control, but must learn to sort of go with the flow.
I see value in the whole continuum, I guess. I think our brains are kind of wired for he 'quest' and it is hard to slow down and accept and appreciate the now and the process and the journey, etc. And this is probably reinforced by culture. So, for me, it helps to be reminded to let go and appreciate the process and the moment and the reality of not having control over my universe.
Hey---I bet there are a million quotes that attempt to remind us to appreciate the moment. Here are two--please add yours:
"Stop and smell the roses."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
John Lennon
Posted by DSCH on September 26, 2003, at 12:25:28
In reply to Re: And now some Lao Tzu? :-), posted by noa on September 26, 2003, at 9:21:38
I believe Wittgenstein may have understood earlier than most that the promising pathways in linear development already had or were about to be exhausted by the "progress" of western culture (doesn't the word progress itself seem to imply linearity?).
I think back to how people in the 1950s and 1960s thought of the future (2001, classic Star Trek, etc.). They certainly would have been dissapointed to find people a bit fed up with air travel and clogged highways and endless ugly urban sprawl while the race into space seems stalled (and NASA an arthritic bureaucracy, as with much of the rest of government). But wouldn't they be bewildered by the exponential development of computers, the web, and the potential opened up by the human genome project? The future turned out to be non-linear.
Taoists and Zen Buddhists would probably point to our widespread anxiety, dissastisfaction, and depression as signs that all our striving has either not really addressed the basic human condition or rather made things worse.
Western culture is ripe for a transfusion of notions from the East (as it has indeed been since the mid-19thC as you can see in a warped sense with Schopenhauer and then in writers like Hermann Hesse). It had a boom-bust cycle in the late 1960s, but you can see it crossing over into pop culture again in the form of movies like The Matrix.
Posted by DSCH on September 26, 2003, at 13:30:37
In reply to And now some Lao Tzu? :-) » jay, posted by DSCH on September 25, 2003, at 1:01:30
> May I "turn down the volume a little bit, brother?" ;-)
Pop quiz! What am I referring to here?
Hint: think MTV ;-)
This is the end of the thread.
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