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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by cybercafe on March 7, 2004, at 4:38:54
well now that i am all better i want to go to the local support group and offer people hope (i also promised i would return even if i got better)... though i'm more focused on money, women, and acne now, heh
anyways i get really frustrated when two things happen .... basically i try to offer people LIFE ALTERING advice .... people who are stuck in this stupid cycle where they don't know what an SSRI is and have no idea how to help themselves ... and people who need a doctor, a consultation, a better pdoc ....
okay call me an arrogant prick for thinking i know what's best for others.... and if someone has been through ECT 20 times and still has depression maybe there is nothing i can do to help them
but so many times i try to urge people to go to dr. bob's site (actually met a nice lady IRL who says she goes here, heh, quite a coincidence) or at least pick up a book or ask questions or write down the names of their meds or DO SOMETHING to put effort into making themselves better but people just aren't interested... and its not like "i'm too depressed to do anything right now " which i could understand but it's like "knowing all this stuff about medication won't make any difference" or "i don't want to do it" ........it just seems like you have to if you want to get better....
another thing that bugs me is my pdoc is really really really good ... it took me 7 years to find him.... really smart, plus not busy... and i try to encourage people to see him rather than do nothing but they just seem so apathetic.... i guess it makes me wonder if anyone else out there suffers at all ("i gained 2 pounds on prozac so i decided i would rather live with the depression" -- THATS NOT DEPRESSION!!!!! okay, 5, 10,+ pounds i could understand)
i just feel like i know whats best for people and they don't (yeah very arrogant i know but the truth is... the more i listen to people in real life make stupid comments like "Nardil... thats an SSRI" the more i feel like hitting them over the head with a lead pipe and dragging them to my doctors office .... cuz i just cannot stand needless suffering) all these people suffering for nothing .......... i understand some people have tried everything and just have to learn to live with it and i wouldn't presume to give them advice.... but don't go through life suffering, thinking there is no treatment for say anxiety or depression when you havnt even tried an MAOI or tricyclic
it is just such a waste.... i would be willing to make app'ts for people and even drive them to the doc if only they would open their mind instead of ??? god knows what they think... perhaps "accepting their illness" which sounds really good but not if it leaves you miserable and not if you can easily make a few adjustments (through knowledge or better doc) and EXPAND your life to include so much more .... i know i have and well ... ! hmmmmmm... maybe i am offended that people ARGUE with my personal experience .... "you can't believe anything you read on the internet" ......... i guess i should reply "oh you're right .... my recovery was based on information that i got from.... my psychic powers?!"
maybe i'll push the local support group leader to stick a terminal with doctor this website on it in the support group room..... i mean i could argue for hours about how this website makes all the difference between people not knowing what to suggest to their doc/expect from meds/deal with side effects/that their doc is a moron and they should fire him immediately
i really like the idea of hitting people over the head and forcing them to educate themselves/see a good doc...... i just don't have any patience, but maybe that's just my ADD
(of course i'm joking guys)
Posted by Dinah on March 7, 2004, at 9:40:35
In reply to frustrated trying to help strangers (strategies?), posted by cybercafe on March 7, 2004, at 4:38:54
Chuckle.
Perhaps you just need to accept that you can't help people more than they want to help themselves.
And perhaps that a whole lot of zeal can be offputting? That can be true with religion. And that can be true with mental health. There have been people who have come here absolutely certain that they have "the answer" to mental health problems and are absolutely eager to save the rest of us. And that rarely works. That's just a purely pragmatic assessment.
I'm guessing that zeal and absolute certainty work best when people come to you, not when you come to them. You know, like the charismatic preacher at a revival meeting is highly effective. But if the same man came to your front door or a party, it doesn't work the same.
On the other hand, my old church used to make missionaries of everyone. The advice was to live positive lives, be warm and friendly to all. And people will want to know how you came to be that way, and then you can let them know what brings you peace in life.
The people at support groups are most likely looking first and foremost for support. And oddly enough, support sometimes first means acceptance of them as they are. And then quietly showing by example that there is a road to the other side, and then letting them know what road you took, and how helpful you found it. And then, hardest of all, accepting that they might want to take a different road and wishing them the best and offering them support on their journey. Even if you think it's the wrong road. And if you think it's such a wrong road that you can't offer them support, that's ok, but you probably can't hit them with a lead pipe and drag them to your psychiatrist anyway. :)
It's great that you want to help others. But it *is* hard to help strangers because you don't know how best to reach them. Maybe you can become their friends first?
Posted by fallsfall on March 7, 2004, at 10:56:10
In reply to Re: frustrated trying to help strangers (strategies?) » cybercafe, posted by Dinah on March 7, 2004, at 9:40:35
Dinah, you said it so beautifully.
Cybercafe,
I can relate so clearly with your desire to educate and help people move on a path that will help them. And I relate even more clearly with your frustration when they are not smart enough to listen. I have mellowed a lot in the last 9 years - but I would still say that I am on the bossy side. I've found that the bossy side doesn't work really well in normal life, and that it works much LESS well with people who are depressed/mentally ill.
I go to a support group, and support and advice are very different things. To support someone you have to find enough empathy to understand why being in the position they are in makes them feel the way that they do. It is incredibly hard to say (and believe) "You sound like you feel so hopeless today, like nothing that you could do would matter at all." And then stop talking. I often don't succeed at the stop talking part, but I keep trying.
I've gone to my support group for 1 1/2 years now. And there are some longtime people there, some who come and go, and some who come only a couple of times. I have found that if I have been able to provide empathy and understanding for a longtime person, that when that person is in a crisis and really needs something "forced" on them, they often will listen to me. But it is like they have to already have the sense that I do care, and I do want them to feel better, but that I know that it is really hard (that is a key point).
Then, sometimes (not always), a comment like "Gee, I'm really worried about you tonight. You seem more hopeless than usual (or things seem to be really hard for you right now, or you are going through a lot right now, or sounds like your life really sucks)." Followed by either a personal story like "One time when I was feeling similarly, I did .... and it really helped. I don't know if that would help you, but it did help me." Or an offer of help "If you would like, I would be willing to go sit in the Emergency Room with you tonight and keep you company", or "If you need a ride to therapy next week, let me know". With rare exceptions, you can't "tell" them to do something (though there was one memorable time when a couple of us surrounded one poor girl at the end of the meeting and expressed compassion and concern until she gave in...). It has to be their choice.
The best angle for promoting a doctor that you particularly like (or the idea of going to a doctor in general) for me has been to talk about how you have been helped by specific things that your doctor has done. It also works to comment when someone else (anyone else) is talking about something their doctor or therapist did that was positive to just stick in really small comments like "It is so nice when a doctor can help like that". Basically you are reinforcing the idea that doctors and therapists CAN help.
I'm sure that my group would be thrilled if someone dropped a bunch of pamplets about meds, or copies of something off the internet on the table. They would also probably be receptive (most of them) to arranging to stay for an extra 1/2 hour some time and have someone give a summary of what the different meds (or therapies, or whatever) are. They are less likely to buy a book, or even get a book from the library - they are depressed - make it easy for them. But make it optional.
When I'm really worried about someone, I get bossier which probably doesn't help. But heavyhandedness never works if there isn't a relationship behind it where the distressed person believes that you care about them and also that you might have some knowledge that will help.
Posted by Racer on March 7, 2004, at 12:57:51
In reply to Re: frustrated trying to help strangers (strategies?), posted by fallsfall on March 7, 2004, at 10:56:10
What fallsfall said is so right on, so helpful. I too went to a support group for a couple of years, and it was so helpful. But I never once saw hard hitting advice help anyone. There is a fine line with advice, because if you come on too strong, people will get defensive. What they say back can range from, "Oh, I don't want to worry about meds, that's the doctor's job" to "that's too much for me to do" to "you can't believe everything you read online," but the bottom line is that people in the midst of a depressive episode are easily manouvered onto the defensive. Just the nature of the beast.
Another thing is even more basic: some people need to feel they have taken charge of their recovery, are actively participating in the decisions made about drugs or other therapy, and some people really don't seem to need that at all. They take the drugs prescribed, and the less they know about it all, the better it works for them. That difference in operational patterns really does need to be respected.
On the other hand, it's great that you want to help people. I agree with Dinah and fallsfall that a softer, less confrontational approach is probably more effective, but here's another suggestion: have you thought about volunteering some time to the support group's administration? Maybe take on a project that interests you like making summaries of medications from sources on the internet? Then the information would be available more easily to those who want to be more proactive on their own behalf. Or you could just get involved in the basic day to day things that go into running a group like that. Then maybe you wouldn't feel so frustrated that you were trying to help and getting no where with it. You'd be able to see the help you did provide, it would be a lot more apparent to you and the pride you could take in that might help soothe that frustration.
Good luck!
Posted by tabitha on March 7, 2004, at 13:06:57
In reply to frustrated trying to help strangers (strategies?), posted by cybercafe on March 7, 2004, at 4:38:54
It *is* frustrating to feel you know with certainty what would help someone, and they just don't seem to want to listen. I tried to be med crusader a couple of times but stopped pretty quickly, because it was making *me* feel bad that people wouldn't take my advice. For instance, I met a guy in a support group (not mental health related) who talked at length about his depression. His dress, expression, and body language just screamed depression. It was almost painful to look at. I almost wanted to leave the room when he shared, because he talked a lot out of that depressed distorted place, and had no awareness that it was the depression talking. He said he 'couldn't take meds' because he was chemically sensitive. I thought, OK, this is just a simple matter of education. I took him aside and told him my story, of how long it took me to find good enough meds, how much of a difference it made, and tried to explain to him that having a bad reaction to one or two meds doesn't mean you won't be able to tolerate any of them. Did his eyes light up with new understanding? Did he rush out and try med after med until finding the right one? No, of course not. He's still carrying heavy depression around with him, believing that he 'can't take meds'. I don't understand it. My therapist suggested he might just have a psychological resistance to changing.
Now he's dating a friend of mine. That adds a new frustration for me. She seems to think he and I share the same issues. I think No way!, there's a world of difference between depressed and off meds and depressed but doing OK on meds. It's like alcoholic still drinking vs alcoholic sober. Yup, I guess my pride gets involved. I do not like being lumped in with someone who won't get treatment. I want to start crusading to her, since she also buys his belief that he 'can't tolerate chemicals'. So far I've resisted.
Then last spring I dated a guy who was depressive. At first I thought it seemed mild, and wasn't overly concerned that he wasn't on meds, but as I got to know him I could see he was struggling a lot, and had the black distorted thoughts that made it difficult to relate to him, and I learned he was having suicidal ideation. His resistance had to do with not believing in 'Western medicine'. In fact, in his world view, 'Western medicine' was this huge evil. He wouldn't even take an aspirin when he had a pulled muscle. Instead he took some homeopathic remedy that did nothing, and laid around suffering for several days. Once again I tried doing a little educating. I was a bit more cautious this time, but I told him that having suicidal thoughts was evidence of pretty serious depression, and he really might benefit from meds. I suggested he could just try them for a while, and if he didn't like how he felt, he could go off them and nothing would be lost. He said well, he hadn't killed himself for all these years, so he was fine. Turned out he was having suicidal thoughts for years. Well.. that guy eventually tried a med trial as part of a study, since he had no health insurance and couldn't afford to pay for treatment. The study had him on some huge dosage, like 3x normal dose, that gave him lots of side effects. I told him a doctor would normally work to reduce side effects, but he said the study told him they wanted him to stay on the high dose so he could report the side effects for their study. So naturally he came away with a negative idea of meds, and went off the study as early as possible. Again, I started to take it a little personally that he wouldn't listen to my advice. He wouldn't accept my expertise as the experienced psych med patient that I am. Harrumph!
So I don't understand when people won't take advice about meds. But then, I think of all the good advice people have given me that I've pooh-poohed, and it makes a little more sense. Dinah made a good point, we can get really zealous about meds, since we know what a difference they made for us, but bringing that to other people is probably not very appealing to them. I know I'm not very receptive to anyone who's had a religious conversion and is eager to sign me up for the same path. People have to find their own paths.
Posted by Racer on March 7, 2004, at 13:29:44
In reply to Re: frustrated trying to help strangers (strategies?), posted by tabitha on March 7, 2004, at 13:06:57
> For instance, I met a guy in a support group (not mental health related) who talked at length about his depression. His dress, expression, and body language just screamed depression. It was almost painful to look at. I almost wanted to leave the room when he shared, because he talked a lot out of that depressed distorted place, and had no awareness that it was the depression talking. He said he 'couldn't take meds' because he was chemically sensitive. I thought, OK, this is just a simple matter of education.
OH, you have no idea how funny that struck me. I really am weak with laughter over a boyfriend I had in college -- he "couldn't take anti-biotics, they just had no power to work in him anymore." I tried to explain that anti-biotics didn't work on the human body, but killed off bacteria which were infecting the human body. Seemed like a simple enough concept to me...
We broke up when he brought home a little bacterial infection and wouldn't get treated for it -- since, after all, anti-biotics didn't work for him. I figured, either take the damn drugs, or wear a condom next time you cheat on me. Then I figured, he really wasn't worth the effort...
Anyway, I can certainly understand your frustration, especially since this guy's dating your friend. I set up two of my best friends a few years back, and they got involved. Then, my male friend started telling me about what was going on with her. She had abruptly dropped me, totally, because of my depression. She dropped me without warning: called on Thursday to say that she was going out of town and her dog sitter just cancelled at the last minute, would I take care of her dog while she was gone? I changed my plans to do so, and did so, and she never called me again, never returned my calls. Well, male buddy said her depression was cyclical, and seasonal. She had never kept a romantic relationship over the winter, because she'd get too depressed and break up. Pattern going back years, and she was totally unwilling to change it. She told him, when he mentioned medications, that "The depression is part of who I am. I recognize the pattern, and it's part of who I am, so I refuse to change it." Here she had a romantic partner who was not only understanding of her and loved her enough to try to maintain their relationship in the face of adversity, but also caring and understanding enough to try to help her for her own sake. Before that winter ended, she'd dropped him, totally, too. Just frustrating as all get out -- especially since he's one of the best men in the universe, and I really think he deserved better treatment from anyone, let alone someone who said she loved him. (Yes, he and I are still friends. We have been for many years, and he and my husband get along great, so he's one of our favorite guests and favorite now-mutual friends.)
Anyway, thanks for the chance to laugh at my youthful mistakes, I needed it today.
Posted by jane d on March 7, 2004, at 19:28:31
In reply to frustrated trying to help strangers (strategies?), posted by cybercafe on March 7, 2004, at 4:38:54
> ... and its not like "i'm too depressed to do anything right now "
which i could understand but it's like
"knowing all this stuff about medication won't make any difference" or "i don't want to do it" ........it just seems like you have to if you want to get better....Cybercafe,
You realize all of those statements can mean exactly the same thing don't you?
It's great to want to help everyone get what they need and it take people with your drive to do that. But it's also ok to just go about your life focussing on money, women and acne. You'll get the chance to make a difference in someone's life sooner or later and if it's the right person it can be a huge difference. Perhaps shoving an absentee employee towards getting help instead of just chewing them out and firing them, or helping a friend see that their wife/husband is not just spiteful but in need of a doctor.
I especially liked the idea of driving people to appointments. That's one of those little things that's so hard to do when you are really down. Especially the first appointment. Good luck, however you decide to do it.
Jane
Posted by gabbix2 on March 7, 2004, at 20:16:56
In reply to Re: frustrated trying to help strangers (strategies?) » cybercafe, posted by jane d on March 7, 2004, at 19:28:31
Perhaps shoving an absentee employee towards getting help instead of just chewing them out and firing them, or helping a friend see that their wife/husband is not just spiteful but in need of a doctor.
>
> I especially liked the idea of driving people to appointments. That's one of those little things that's so hard to do when you are really down. Especially the first appointment. Good luck, however you decide to do it.
>
> JaneWow, just.. wow.
I hope if I ever get out of this hole long enough
(and learn to drive) I can live out those
ideals.
Thanks for such an eloquent but humble reminder.
Posted by cybercafe on March 8, 2004, at 3:45:29
In reply to Re: frustrated trying to help strangers (strategies?), posted by gabbix2 on March 7, 2004, at 20:16:56
i know my message was a bit negative and controversial and probably a little self righteous and arrogant and i was afraid that i would have upset everyone but you guys have been really supportive
thanks a lot i will take your advice to heart....
(about putting people on the defensive, establishing a relationship, bringing in med info, etc, all sounds good)well its 5 am and i'm going to bed :)
This is the end of the thread.
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