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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by partlycloudy on May 18, 2004, at 12:11:35
In reply to Re: Body acceptance » Dinah, posted by Susan J on May 18, 2004, at 11:35:45
I'm a low-maintenance short hair, comfortable cotton knits or linen clothes, kind of rumply looking type of girl. I do insist that my earrings match my clothing, and until I became my present size, was very careful not to wear the same outfit more than once in a 6-week period. I bought one of those lighted makeup mirrors and all of a sudden the people I work with told me I was looking better. Better than what?
Oh, and I wear comfortable shoes, because I had bunion surgery on both feet and refuse to distress them any further.
Posted by Susan J on May 18, 2004, at 12:14:30
In reply to Re: Body acceptance » Susan J, posted by partlycloudy on May 18, 2004, at 12:11:35
>You know, I'd love to have sexy long hair, but it is just too much damned work, and hot in the summer. (Hot temperature, sweat running in my eyes hot, not hot sexy).
I found a great short hair style that takes about five minutes to blow dry in the morning, and I love it. It looks good on me and I get compliments all the time. Now if I could find a guy who likes short hair. :-)
Posted by tabitha on May 18, 2004, at 12:16:21
In reply to Re: mother acceptance » justyourlaugh, posted by Dinah on May 18, 2004, at 11:23:25
inappropriate gifts make me hugely sad, too. They seem to say the giver doesn't know me, and/or doesn't want to know me, and/or refuses to know me. And/or I'm not worth knowing. And/or it's my fault, if I just tried harder, they'd finally see me. Yuck!
Body acceptance is so hard. I have a weird mirror relationship. Sometimes I look pretty and peaceful to myself. Sometimes I look horrid, old, mannish, fat. I just want to die. I tell myself it isn't nice to tell my little girl she's ugly, but that only seems to add guilt. Seeing pictures usually triggers the self-hate. I never seem to take good pictures. I tell myself the camera lies. Remember when I posted my picture here? I figured out that little pieces of my face were cute-- just not the whole thing. And, sadly, my mom had prettiness issues too. At her funeral some old guy said 'she was a pretty, pretty woman'. I thought that comment would please her more than anything anybody else said. Except of course it wouldn't have sunk in.
Posted by NikkiT2 on May 18, 2004, at 12:41:53
In reply to Re: mother acceptance » Dinah, posted by tabitha on May 18, 2004, at 12:16:21
Well, I do the vast majority of my socialising online.. That way I can control how people think I look. I'm quite open that I look like crap.. I'm short and fat with hair with no body (I *adore* short hair and had a short cropped hair style from age of 12 to 18 months ago when I started growing it into what is now a bob - and I hate it *l* But I think it looks better while I'm still fat.. anyway, I digress!!)
Anyway.. at the chat site I use people are always posting pictures of themselves or just body parts.. So, what I do is only ever show them a photo of my eyes. I do have beautiful eyes (the only bit of me I like.. though my ears are OK too) Then, they think I am beautiful all over *laughing*
I ahve many versions of the eye photo from playing in Paint Shop pro with them.. wanna see some??
The original - http://tinyurl.com/33nfh
And some played with versions of it..
Hope no ones fell asleep through boredom!! (and thanks sienna for the tinyurl link!! Its fab!!)
Nikki x
Posted by Dinah on May 18, 2004, at 16:55:50
In reply to posting good parts!!, posted by NikkiT2 on May 18, 2004, at 12:41:53
Posted by Dinah on May 18, 2004, at 17:07:04
In reply to Re: mother acceptance » Dinah, posted by tabitha on May 18, 2004, at 12:16:21
Well, my hair is completely different from my mom's. She's actually got nice hair, and my baby fine hair wouldn't do the short layered cut she has anyway. I dress completely differently. I suppose I should take comfort in the fact that our bodies aren't too similar (except that I seem to have misplaced my waist). She's short and I'm tall and long waisted with shoulderst that always look like I'm wearing shoulder pads. :) I have my paternal grandma's body. About all I can do to reduce the resemblence is to wear makeup (argh) and to lose weight, which I'm really trying to do.
My therapist and I were talking about this today (naturally). How I am so detached from my body and my appearance that I don't do nearly enough in his opinion to make myself look attractive because I don't equate who I am with what I look like. And that's pretty much true unless I'm forcefully confronted with a mirror or a picture. He'd rather I was more in touch with my body. Blech. What a prospect.
We also talked about the gifts, and how in every area of her life she does what she wants to do without regard for anyone else. And how the gifts... Oh, I can't describe it. He understood anyway. But somehow the gifts tell you you don't exist except as a piece of her. Like she's trying to devour who you really are. I know that sounds nuts, and it's mainly because I don't have the right words for it. But like she used to give me toys way too young for my age because she didn't want me to grow up. She wanted me to be what she wanted me to be, and the gifts were....
Oh, I'm really bad at expressing things sometimes.
What an awful headache producing session that was. :(
Posted by Racer on May 18, 2004, at 19:02:19
In reply to Re: mother acceptance, posted by Dinah on May 18, 2004, at 17:07:04
Just post-dentist, so groggy and medicated, not much sense out of me right now.
What you wrote expressed something very strongly to me, Dinah, and evoked a lot of emotions and emotional reactions in me. I don't know if they were precisely the ones you were trying to describe, but I"ll bet they were pretty close to it.
In my book, that is the definition of successful communication. You win a lollipop, and a {{{squish}}}
(And I've got some of the same issues, so you've also got company.)
Posted by Dinah on May 18, 2004, at 19:24:09
In reply to Re: Dinah acceptance » Dinah, posted by Racer on May 18, 2004, at 19:02:19
I'm sorry that you're able to understand. :( I really hate feeling this way about my mother. It would be easier if she didn't bring the gifts.
My therapist mentioned Scott Peck's book "People of the Lie". I read it ages ago but not lately. I'll have to glance over it again and see if he did really understand what I was saying.
I hope you feel better, post dentist, soon.
Dinah
Posted by Emme on May 18, 2004, at 20:32:09
In reply to Re: mother acceptance » Dinah, posted by tabitha on May 18, 2004, at 12:16:21
> Remember when I posted my picture here?
Yes, I do. And I remember thinking that you were very pretty.
Posted by Emme on May 18, 2004, at 20:33:18
In reply to posting good parts!!, posted by NikkiT2 on May 18, 2004, at 12:41:53
Good lord - your eyes are gorgeous!
Posted by tabitha on May 19, 2004, at 0:19:11
In reply to posting good parts!!, posted by NikkiT2 on May 18, 2004, at 12:41:53
Wow, you do have beautiful eyes. Looks just like a magazine photo.
Posted by tabitha on May 19, 2004, at 0:24:36
In reply to Re: Acceptance » Racer, posted by Dinah on May 18, 2004, at 19:24:09
I read people of the lie. I'll bet he was thinking of one story about a couple that gave their depressed son the weapon his brother had used to suicide, and when Peck tried to point out to them the possible meaning, that it was like saying to their son to follow his brother's footsteps, they professed total ignorance.
Overall the book kind of bugged me-- since it was about diagnosing 'evil'. I felt pretty sorry for his patients who were unlucky enough to become his case histories.
Posted by tabitha on May 19, 2004, at 0:29:06
In reply to Re: mother acceptance » tabitha, posted by Emme on May 18, 2004, at 20:32:09
Posted by justyourlaugh on May 19, 2004, at 8:43:03
In reply to Re: mother acceptance, posted by Dinah on May 18, 2004, at 17:07:04
d,
i gave my daughter a doll for christmas, even though she expressed no interest.
i really bought it for me and i keep her bundled up by the fire place(not a great place for a baby!)..
maybe she wanted the toys.
maybe she didnt want to grow up.
jyl
Posted by Racer on May 19, 2004, at 10:47:10
In reply to Re: Acceptance » Racer, posted by Dinah on May 18, 2004, at 19:24:09
You know, it's funny -- I love my mother and I love spending time with her and I know she loves me. When I see her now, I can't believe she is the same woman I grew up with. The only way I can see it now is that she feels so guilty about a lot of it. I've tried to tell her that she doesn't have to feel guilty about it anymore -- that now it's up to me to do something about it for myself, and that I just want to enjoy the time I spend with her. And believe me -- I *do* enjoy that time we spend together.
Last night I was very sick -- even said yes when my husband suggested the emergency room, although after a few hours I gave up and told him either I'd live through the night more comfortably at home, or at least die comfortable (some people had been waiting for 10 hours, including one woman who was in and out of conciousness) so we came home. When we got home, I was finally starting to feel semi-coherent, and somehow started talking about some of what went on in my childhood, some of the things my mother used to say to me. She'd talk about my "ham hock arms", or say that I had "legs like a Jewish woman: fat calves and skinny ankles." Not to mention she always told me that she had a flat stomach -- while I have always had a pot belly. Um, wonder why I've got problems? Just the last few weeks I know my body perceptions have gotten much worse. Now I look in the mirror and see balloon-like hips and thighs, when I know that it can't be that bad. {{sigh}} Guess that might be a subject for therapy, in a perfect world, huh?
Anyway, while I agree that it's really too bad we both recognize the feelings, I know that it's possible to improve the situation, so maybe it will improve for you, too. You really struck a nerve for me when you said that the presents were a sign to you that your mother didn't *know* you, and I think that one was really key for me. Of course, our storage unit is full of things that my family has given us for Christmas that are so outside anything we'd ever use as to be laughable. On the one hand, it is the thought that counts. On the other hand, they're also a sign that someone DIDN'T think. {{sigh}} It would be nice to feel heard.
As for you, have you ever heard a singer called Alison Moyet? Her voice is really captivating, just soars right through me and lifts me along with her. Really amazing sort of rock-y blues voice. Guess what? She's fat. Guess what else? She's absolutely stunningly beautiful. The two are not mutually exclusive. Her eyes are about as beautiful as yours are. The sad thing to me is that she is so lovely, and there are hardly any photographs of her available. The one video I've seen of her tries so hard to hide her. That is sad. Doesn't matter her size, she's still lovely and I want a face to go with that transcendant voice. ('Sides, you gotta have space for those pipes -- skinny chicks can't get that vibrato.)
((Dinah))
Posted by DaisyM on May 19, 2004, at 19:51:35
In reply to Body acceptance, posted by Dinah on May 18, 2004, at 10:14:34
Dinah,
I want to check in about what we talked about last night. I clearly want to say that my views on how you present yourself were not meant to imply that what you are currently doing is "wrong." It's just that you seem to want to change it...but are struggling with what that says about the "real you". I'll go back to what I was saying last night, what you put on the outside of you conveys a message about how you feel about the inside of you. If you like comfortable or quirky or stylish, or whatever... it is about YOUR selections and choices. You are respecting your inside by taking care of your outside.
Sometimes I think we can use your outside as a barrier for keeping people at arms length. Of not being approachable. I do this with my suit and heels. I *look* like I'm in charge, so people *let* me be in charge. Which makes me unapproachable at times. It all depends on the message I'm trying to send.
I guess you could think of it in terms of the gift conversation too. A well chosen gift means you've thought about what the other person would like and what they need. I would argue that the same goes for appearance, in some sense. You conform to whatever social norms are apparent in an attempt to put others at ease and let them get to know you. It doesn't mean changing your whole style or sense of self. It shows that you care about the other people in your circle and are willing to "work" a little to make them happy or comfortable.
Gosh, this is so hard. Does that mean I think appearance is all that counts. NO! I'm overweight and there a million things about me I'd like to change. I have these fantasies of being more "hippyish" with long flowing dresses and beads and no make up. But my personal comfort level pushes me to skirts, blouses, stockings and heels. It says a lot about the inner me to people.
I hope this makes at least a little sense. It is such a touchy subject. Maybe because I've gotten to know you without seeing you I want other people to get that chance too. And it makes me sad that you don't like how you look.
I, btw, look EXACTLY like my mother. Which is unnerving even though I like how she looks, mostly. But we value such different things, I have to remind myself that looking and dressing are very different than acting.
Posted by DaisyM on May 19, 2004, at 19:56:40
In reply to Re: Acceptance » Dinah, posted by Racer on May 19, 2004, at 10:47:10
In the "doesn't know me at all gift department"
Last year we celebrated out 20 year wedding anniversary. My husband bought me a big screen TV. Now, I work 75+ hours a week and watch maybe 2 or 3 TV shows consistently. I do love movies and since hitting a depression low the previous April, I had been holed up in our bedroom watching movies alot. In the furthest corner of our house, in the furthest corner of my bed, escaping the world. He said, "I thought maybe you wouldn't spend so much time in the bedroom alone if you could watch movies out here...with us."
It was unbelievable sweet and such a bad choice. My kid, however, came home from a visit to the east coast, walked in and said, "THANKS DAD! The NFL Ticket AND a big screen. Can't wait for football!" LOL
Posted by lonelygirl on May 20, 2004, at 16:04:27
In reply to Re: Body acceptance » Susan J, posted by partlycloudy on May 18, 2004, at 12:11:35
Woooooaaaaah. I have about 10 days' worth of clothing that I wear over and over again.
> until I became my present size, was very careful not to wear the same outfit more than once in a 6-week period.
Posted by lonelygirl on May 20, 2004, at 16:24:27
In reply to Re: mother acceptance » justyourlaugh, posted by Dinah on May 18, 2004, at 11:23:25
It's kind of funny... Years ago, when I got to be the same size as my mother (who is by no means svelte), I was horrified. But now, I would kill to be the same size as my mother. I don't look very much like my mother at all; I look more like my father's side of the family (my relatives always say that I look just like my father's sister).
My mother at least has a decent sense of my taste in clothing. I hate most of the clothes she wears; she buys a lot of her clothes and jewelry from art fairs, while I wear almost exclusively plain, dark clothes. I absolutely hate shopping, and because of that, I have a very limited wardrobe. Sometimes, this annoys/embarrasses her so much that she goes out and buys me clothes :) For someone with such completely different taste in clothing, she does a remarkably good job finding clothes that I'll wear (and I'm actually very picky).
Oh wow... what's wrong with me? I just said something nice about my mother!!!
Posted by Ilene on May 20, 2004, at 19:46:21
In reply to Body acceptance, posted by Dinah on May 18, 2004, at 10:14:34
Gaaaahhhhh! My current ruminations revolve around turning 50 in less than one week, and feeling fat, ugly, unsexy, and like the world has passed me by.
Not only does it freak me out to be Turning Into My Mother, but she, too, used to present me with useless gifts. As if she paid no attention to me at all. She did try, at times, by giving me books or something similar, but she'd usually miss the mark by getting something too cheap--like a poor-quality edition of Audubon's Birds of America. I mean, what's the point?
(On the other hand, I always had a terrible time coming up with gifts for her.)
While my mother may have been able to acknowledge that the two of us were different people, when put to it, she could never acknowledge that my--or anyone else's--opinions or preferences had any validity. She treated my choices with disdain, to the point where stating, "I don't want an X" didn't stop me from getting an X if my mother thought I needed an X.
Sure hope my daughter doesn't ever think that of me. So far things are a lot better than they were between me and my mother when I was 17.
Posted by Racer on May 20, 2004, at 20:02:26
In reply to Re: Body acceptance, posted by Ilene on May 20, 2004, at 19:46:21
OMG! You just kinda described my mother, except that her gifts to me were usually more expensive than she could really afford. She tried, and I know now and even knew then that she did the best she could -- kinda -- so it's hard to validate my own hurt by them.
I hate to sound flippant, but it really seems like all our mothers here went to the same MomSchool, don't you think? Hm... Maybe some connection between all this and our being here?
My mother still kinda does it, too. It's not so much that she buys gifts that I've already said I don't want, though. And example: while we're very different in build, neither one of us has ever been able to wear Levi's jeans. My waist is nearer my armpits than to my hips, and the rise just cuts into my crotch. So, we both buy Eddie Bauer jeans, which do fit us both. The other day, needing a pair of jeans that fit, Mother said, "Well, since Eddie Bauer didn't have jeans you liked (read: my size), let's go to Mervyn's -- they have Levi's." Thanks, but if the problem is not having jeans that fit, how exactly does that help? She meant well, that I know and believe, but it is a bit clueless -- since I'm not 17 anymore...
Anyway, just a bit about it.
Posted by Ilene on May 21, 2004, at 7:09:51
In reply to Re: Body acceptance » Ilene, posted by Racer on May 20, 2004, at 20:02:26
Maybe the problem lies in us more than our moms. Maybe all moms do this to a greater or lesser extent, it's just that we are ultra-sensitive to it. My sister just laughed off my mom's tactless remarks and other faux pas.
On the other hand, my husband couldn't stand my mother because of the way she treated me.
It doesn't bother me that much now that she's dead, because I don't have to deal with her.
Posted by Dinah on May 21, 2004, at 11:00:52
In reply to Re: motherhood mishandling » Dinah, posted by justyourlaugh on May 19, 2004, at 8:43:03
I think that's a fine thing to do. I enjoyed buying my son Thomas the Tank Engine toys when he was little because I liked to play with him. Now I just buy them for me. :)
I can't really explain how that's different than what my mother does. Maybe I'm all wrong about her.
Posted by Dinah on May 21, 2004, at 11:11:36
In reply to Re: Body acceptance, posted by DaisyM on May 19, 2004, at 19:51:35
I do understand, Daisy. It's what my therapist always tries to tell me too. And I trust him and trust his judgement (and I trust you and trust your judgement). At any rate I have all summer to mull it over and decide what to do. And to try to lose weight. I can't help thinking that the rest of it won't mean anything if I can't get down from my current 190.
I have decided that I'm not going adopt the "uniform" of the other moms. If there's one thing I learned about uniforms at Catholic girls school, it's that it's harder to fit in when you wear one than when you don't. There are hosts of unwritten rules about uniforms, and the people who wear them can spot a wannabe at a dozen yards without blinking.
I'm relatively certain there's a store or two they all shop, with khaki or black capris, simple shirts, and black or brown slides. I'm also relatively certain the store doesn't carry my size. I'm dead certain that it would be instantly visible if I tried to put together the look. And I'm reasonably certain that if I bought the exact same clothes from the exact same shops after losing enough weight to fit in them, that there would be a dozen minute details that would give away that I'm not one of them.
So if I lose enough weight (which is doubtful) I'll go back to my old tailored shirtdress, circle skirt sort of look that is the real me. If I don't lose enough weight (far more likely) I'll stick with the look I'm most comfortable with now, and consider less extreme nods to conventionality.
Posted by Dinah on May 21, 2004, at 11:17:46
In reply to Re: mother acceptance » Dinah, posted by lonelygirl on May 20, 2004, at 16:24:27
And so you should! That's a wonderful thing to be able to say about your mother. It's really shows some sensitivity on her part.
I can say tons of nice things about my mother too. She taught me all I know about decency and honor and doing the right thing. Not that she always did those things, but she expected me to. :)
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