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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 6 of 6. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by tootercat on June 9, 2004, at 12:03:08
Hi my friend, sorry I haven't sent any "personal" emails lately. I have been "watching" the interaction between you and KK and cracking up.
You two have met each others match.....not sure if in hell or heaven....LOL. I wish that I could give you a huge hug with all that is going on. I also would love to see where you live; this place sounds like my idea of paradise. How long have you had your girlfriend? and is she in retaliation/rebound to your wife? Please be kind to both of you. (the girlfriend not the wife...she needs a size 8 up her butt - oops sorry did I say that?) I have to go to the doc today. I seem to have acquired some sort of skin irritation (rash) that I thought were flea bites but they have taken on a whole new life of their own. I am so itchy....yukko....and NO I haven't been frolicking in the giggleweeds with my new love.....It doesn't look like poison ivy or oak. I'm thinking some delayed reaction maybe to my Dad's death...keep fingers crossed it's something simple and easy to zap.Love ya,
Tooter
Posted by Scott in Vermont on June 9, 2004, at 14:14:20
In reply to Hey Scott (in VT), posted by tootercat on June 9, 2004, at 12:03:08
Hi Tooter,
No worries on the email thing. You've got my address, and I know you'll write when you can. :)
I'm having fun with the KK exchange. The sppoky part is even I'm not sure how much is real and how much is play anymore. The idea of a drunk woman running naked around the house is not unappealing. I just can't deal with that whole "pony" issue.
Catherine is my real-life girlfriend, and we have been friends for a long time before this. This isn't a rebound or retaliation, it's two friends exploring something that is much more than a friendship. And no, I didn't screw up my marriage by messing around before all this happened. Catherine never made a play for me (and honestly, I didn't ever want to be with her like "this") but things happen, and after both being miserable and I was moving out for the 2nd time inside a month, she told me she was tired of watching me survive off the scraps of emotion my wife would feed me, and that I should try being with someone who actually loves and accepts me for exactly who I am. We've been "together" now since March 15th (we were roomies for a while, and then I gace up trying to reconcile with my wife)and while nothing is perfect, it's been great for both of us.
I'm sorry to hear about your icky skin thing. I hope it's somehting simple like chiggers or something... ha. I hope that delayed stress isn't causing it, or else it might keep going up and... well, that would be bad, I imagine.
Ha.
No, really, I hope you are ok, and I'm doing a whole lot better than I was earlier this morning for sure.
Posted by spoc on June 10, 2004, at 6:13:03
In reply to Re: Hey Scott (in VT) » tootercat, posted by Scott in Vermont on June 9, 2004, at 14:14:20
Hey Scott,
Nosey/curious: Do you think your feelings about having only open relationships are related to needing to detox and get over the ramifications and bad memories from your marriage; or have you always been/will always be someone who needs to be with others instead of bonding with one person (to the extent any of us are able to have eyes for only one). I'm always curious because while I am very non-possessive and would never linger/debate if the monogamous objectives weren't voluntary/mutual, I could never be "strong" enough to share someone I had come to really care about... I am always in awe of that ability! :- )
Posted by Scott in Vermont on June 10, 2004, at 10:17:04
In reply to Re: Hey Scott (in VT) » Scott in Vermont, posted by spoc on June 10, 2004, at 6:13:03
I feel that I have always been polyamorous (meaning I am capable of feeling real love for more than one individual) and while I have no problem committing to one person when that relationship is based on mutual trust and respect, I also have no problem committing to more than one person in mutual trust and respect.Most people will read that and instantly label me as a creep. I assure you, this is not me seeking a license to be sexually adventurous. I could do (and have done) that covertly. It is ultimately unfulfilling, and while it satisfies the animal, it does nothing to qualify the man. More than anything else, I seek emotional fulfillment, and I seek to fill my needs of being needed and being wanted.
Many people scorn or scoff at the idea of polyamorous relationships. However, I submit that if most people took a moment and were introspective of their own history, they will see that they have experienced serial polygamy (one after another after another). They may find that while they feel that they truly loved each one of those people, and possibly still do, for one reason or another they are now with someone else. Same principle, different circumstance.
In case you are wondering, no, my marriage did not fall apart because of my beliefs. I'm not the kind of person who coerces or manipulates. If it's not absolutely genuine, it's bound to be poisonous and doomed to fail before it even starts.
There is a book I highly recommend to anyone who has questions about this subject. It is titled "Open Marriage- A New Lifestyle For Couples" by Nena and George O'Neill, written in 1972. I read it a long time ago, re-read it on occasion, and 32 years after it's original publication, the book is still as pertinent (if not more so) as ever. It debunks the theory that the concept of "open marriage" is a loose and uncommitted sexual adventure. If anything, it's the original "Men are from Mars..." and it presents many functional and rational ideas for approaching ANY relationship.
My ability to share and be shared is 100% based in trust and mutual desire. I would not pursue this or be part of a relationship like this unless everyone involved agreed on the dynamics of that relationship. And I will openly admit to my own jealously issues, but those arise only when I am not receiving something from the relationship that I need. I need security, safety, and the knowledge that I am wanted and needed. Relationships like this create community and family in a society where individualism and lack of community seems to be the order of the day.
The idea of an extended community is not a new one, but with the hindsight of history and the ability to review other attempts, we can avoid pitfalls that other people have experienced. An extended community, be it in a loving relationship or "business" relationship makes sound economical sense nowadays. Even with two incomes, most people find that they live to work, not work to live. Get up, go to work, work work work, go home, try to be a homemaker and/or parent, pay the bills, blah blah blah... when does anyone get a break? Almost never.
But then you take a successful community (and I base this on one that I know of personally here in Vermont). Multiple incomes contributing to one goal. Multiple persons contributing time and effort to a household. Less individual effort from reach person, incredible returns for everyone overall. It does work, even today. Especially today, rather. And it worked a long time ago when extended families lived together, or small communities banded together and shared in all aspects of taking care of each other. It is something we have all but lost in "modern times", and there is such a stigma attached to it, most people see it as "evil and immoral" without understanding the aspects of it.
And of course, it's even more difficult to discuss rationally when there is a recent and highly sensational news story about some weirdo who had 17 wives and 58 kids and was dealing in child porn on the Internet. That kind of press is eaten up, and rather look at the individual and his actions, it's lumped into a easily-digested explanation of "polygamy" and everyone shakes their head knowingly because polygamy is bad (much like "rock music" is bad because it makes kids kill their classmates). It is an uphill battle, and not one I usually engage in.
Right now, the relationship I am in is not ready for anything except exclusivity and monogamy, and not only am I totally fine with that, I'm enjoying it a lot. But we have both discussed the idea of sex outside the relationship and/or bringing others into the relationship (preferably a married couple with similar beliefs). And while we both express that interest, we also acknowledge that it is a "long time from now". Perhaps over the winter months when everyone is stuffed away in their homes for 6 months. But we both agree that much discussion is necessary before moving forward.
I don't know if I clarified anything or not, but I hope that was a passable overview of my position on this issue. I'd be happy to discuss it more in email if you wish.
Posted by spoc on June 10, 2004, at 12:00:10
In reply to Re: Hey Scott (in VT) » spoc, posted by Scott in Vermont on June 10, 2004, at 10:17:04
> I feel that I have always been polyamorous (meaning I am capable of feeling real love for more than one individual) and while I have no problem committing to one person when that relationship is based on mutual trust and respect, I also have no problem committing to more than one person in mutual trust and respect.
>
> Most people will read that and instantly label me as a creep...<<<<< Oh no, I wasn't looking at it that way at all. Everything you just said does make perfect sense and is all very well and good when the cards are indeed all on the table about it. I was truly just marveling as I always do that some people can be that unencumbered by raw human impulses. See, here I am acknowledging that the tendency to want someone all to oneself (ONLY when mutual, I must stress in my case -- I have and would NEVER press or try to change someone who didn't feel exactly the same about it) is *also* a "raw human impulse," not just the impulse to want/be open to several (now or at some point).
I do see the absolute logic in everything you've said and please know that I'm not questioning it. I think it just probably most often has to come from feeling one way or the other in one's gut, not from intellectually processing it. Because in my gut, no matter how much more sensible, I couldn't *feel* it or be comfortable. Same way as someone who favors it in their gut can't be made to *FEEL* otherwise.
Well, I'm sure there are exceptions to both. But in most cases that's probably a common place for relationships to fall apart -- mixing people who feel differently on this who are both hoping the other will change, or not mind following through with some consent given out of exasperation. "It's all good" (much as I hate cliches), people just need to be totally up front from day one. And I do admit that my longest relationship has been ten years, and we didn't even live together in the reality-and-responsibility grind for most of that time. So indeed I can't speak for what may have seemed to make sense to add in had things been different or had we still been together way down the road.
I didn't make any connection between your beliefs and whatever happened with your marriage at all. I had just wondered based on nothing whether there was any component of the (sometimes temporary) "NEVER AGAIN!!!!!" reaction going on, which is often the result only of a bad experience and not indicative of one's actual standing on monogamy vs. polyamorousness. But yes, it is of course also perfectly likely and valid that those are and were the true preferences all along.
I see the existence you describe as probably indeed less stressful, as long as all parties truly are on the same page and not faking it or just going along with it. If I could push a button and be that way, I probably would! There are indeed countless pitfalls to the other modes.
Fortunately, myself I never put the cart before the horse. While I have had mostly very positive and fulfulling relationships, with no issues of one wanting more than the other, when there is currently no one I care for I couldn't be more content on my own. To a very unusual extent -- for years even. For quite awhile now, I haven't been open to dating, much less commitment, due to feeling I need to clean up my own back yard in several ways first (yet so far, not even working on it!). But in my gut, preferring going it totally alone to passing the time with someone I haven't bonded with. (None of which reflects on anything we're discussing here, btw.)
Thanks for your response, it was very interesting! :- )
Note to self: I say "indeed" too much. Must expand vocabulary.
Posted by Scott in Vermont on June 10, 2004, at 14:02:27
In reply to Re: Hey Scott (in VT) » Scott in Vermont, posted by spoc on June 10, 2004, at 12:00:10
> Thanks for your response, it was very interesting! :- )
You are quite welcome. Thank you for asking. Feel free to drop a line anytime.
This is the end of the thread.
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