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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 42. Go back in thread:
Posted by newwife on October 10, 2004, at 1:06:25
In reply to Y'all are nice, posted by Dinah on October 10, 2004, at 0:58:33
Posted by 64bowtie on October 10, 2004, at 2:33:54
In reply to Setting firm boundaries, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2004, at 21:47:34
Posted by Skittles on October 10, 2004, at 2:40:50
In reply to Setting firm boundaries, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2004, at 21:47:34
I am completely with you on this one. A week ago I would have told you that my mother merely irritated me, but now it's turned to pure hatred. My parents were on vacation and called to ask me to go check on something in their house. On my mother's nightstand was a copy of "When Our grown kids Disappoint us" Lovely, huh? I'm an only child, so it *had* to be about me. I moved out when I was 20, haven't asked my parents for a penny since, married a man they adore, graduated from college and am doing well in law school. What the hell is there to be disappointed about???
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 10, 2004, at 6:05:06
In reply to Hating our mothers » Dinah, posted by Skittles on October 10, 2004, at 2:40:50
> I am completely with you on this one. A week ago I would have told you that my mother merely irritated me, but now it's turned to pure hatred. My parents were on vacation and called to ask me to go check on something in their house. On my mother's nightstand was a copy of "When Our grown kids Disappoint us" Lovely, huh? I'm an only child, so it *had* to be about me. I moved out when I was 20, haven't asked my parents for a penny since, married a man they adore, graduated from college and am doing well in law school. What the hell is there to be disappointed about???
Ouch. I think that book might be worth a conversation. "I noticed a book on your nightstand, with a really interesting title. Wanna tell me about it?"
You're an adult now, and stuff like that needs to be put out in the open. You deserve to know the truth.
Lar
Posted by Dinah on October 10, 2004, at 8:45:33
In reply to Hating our mothers » Dinah, posted by Skittles on October 10, 2004, at 2:40:50
That was quite an "oversight" on her part to leave it there, wasn't it? I think Lar's right; I've never seen a clearer request for a discussion. Unless you choose you'd rather ignore such an obvious ploy. :)
I consider going back to hating my mother a clear step backwards. I used to hate her all the time, and in my early twenties I obtained emotional divorce and began feeling nothing towards her other than the recognition that she was my mother, along with a healthy dose of fear. To go back to hating her with the intensity I used to represents an obvious breach in my emotional divorce.
I need to work on my emotional divorce skills.
Posted by Fi on October 10, 2004, at 8:48:57
In reply to Setting firm boundaries, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2004, at 21:47:34
Congratulations! As you will have seen from previous posts, we are absolutely fine with you saying exactly what you feel. Say what you like about your mother- it sounds a really good idea to use this board to do this. We'll give you a much more accurate view of the world than she does!
Its always hardest work to start with, just like with setting limits with a toddler. And she is behaving like a toddler who has had the chocolate taken away from her. Imagine her like that, if it gives you a laugh!
She only has the power over you that you choose to give her, tho I know that is hard to believe. Dont let your feelings about her drive you out of town or even to suicide- she's not worth it.
Of course she will complain about you to her contacts- it was handy for her having a slave!
Your behaviour is so healthy, and your feelings so natural. As has been said before, try to think about other things and give yourself a break. YOu deserve some treats.
And remember the board is here anytime.
Fi
Posted by partlycloudy on October 10, 2004, at 9:03:09
In reply to Re: Setting firm boundaries » Dinah, posted by Fi on October 10, 2004, at 8:48:57
I've gone all around the block with my mom. From loving her, to admiring her. then loathing, hating, pitying, and now accepting her.
It helps that we live at opposite ends of 2 countries. I took me a long time in therapy to recognize her passive agression for what it was. I was able to confront her, and during that time I became aware of and more sensitive to her limitations. She just shuts out what she finds unpleasant, like sticking her fingers in her ears and saying "lalalalalala". When we had the storms last month she advised me not to watch the Weather Channel because it would upset me. Hmmm, it might also show me if I needed to evacuate my home.
When I get to a low point and Need My Mommy, she is no mommy to me. I used to call her when I was upset or wanted another opinion, and now I save my breath.
I don't blame her completely for how I turned out, but she only ever had her own interests at heart. She never wanted a family, and made that very clear to me, at least.
Dinah, I think that hating your mother at a time like this is natural. Don't see it as a step backwards, but another development in how you relate to her. I hear a lot of hurt in your posts about her, too, and plenty of fear. I think her limitations are being revealed during all these difficulties, and she is striking back at the only way she knows how.
Protect yourself, Dinah.
pc
Posted by fallsfall on October 10, 2004, at 9:45:13
In reply to Setting firm boundaries, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2004, at 21:47:34
I think that the boundaries you chose are completely reasonable. And you helped your parents set up the support systems that they need to be safe and function.
It will take a little while for both you and them to adjust to the new boundaries. Stick it out.
Good for you!
Posted by Dinah on October 10, 2004, at 9:47:58
In reply to Re: Setting firm boundaries » Dinah, posted by Fi on October 10, 2004, at 8:48:57
Actually the board and my therapist helped me a lot to prepare to set the boundaries, by giving me an idea what was reasonable.
Now I just need to avoid being sucked back in. Easier said than done.
Posted by Dinah on October 10, 2004, at 9:50:43
In reply to Re: Setting firm boundaries, posted by partlycloudy on October 10, 2004, at 9:03:09
I think part of what gets me is that she so enjoys being in crisis. Being able to tell people to do that or do this. She's going to burn her support system in her church awfully quickly.
Funny thing is that we were talking about her childhood. She was the oldest of many children, and had frequent serious ailments in her youth. She says her siblings to this day say they resented her for that. That she used her illnesses to gain attention and get out of work.
Posted by partlycloudy on October 10, 2004, at 11:07:05
In reply to Re: Setting firm boundaries » partlycloudy, posted by Dinah on October 10, 2004, at 9:50:43
> I think part of what gets me is that she so enjoys being in crisis. Being able to tell people to do that or do this. She's going to burn her support system in her church awfully quickly.
>
Your mom has to recognize that you will not be there to rescue her when she does burn that support system out. When it does happen, the community at church will know what you've gone through already. (No more "bad" daughter.)I think that we have a responsibility to take care of our parents when they become old and infirm, but we don't have to get sucked into their illness. It is even more important to keep ourselves healthy - in every way - so we can effectively take care of them.
You are doing all the right things - home health care, using the support system that already exists; and you mustn't feel that you are a bad person for getting that help.
(((Dinah)))
Posted by Fi on October 10, 2004, at 14:25:20
In reply to Thank you for the support Falls and » Fi, posted by Dinah on October 10, 2004, at 9:47:58
Hopefully, your therapist and the board can help you stick at this very hard task.
Good luck.
Fi
Posted by Dinah on October 12, 2004, at 8:12:09
In reply to Re: Thank you for the support Falls and » Dinah, posted by Fi on October 10, 2004, at 14:25:20
Bad maybe, but not suicidal.
Let's see. My parents didn't make me furious yesterday, so I had a respite from constant adrenaline surges.
My mom broke the two day lead time rule, and I did what she asked anyway. So I was a bit angry with her and with me. But I reminded her of the rule and told her she lucked out this time, which dissipated the anger a bit. Unfortunately, I did it in front of the person they hired to help around the house AND the physical therapist, so I probably came across as cold, but oh well...
It also embarassed me to see her being herself. Ordering the poor woman around in her usual nitpicking way that has more to do with her revelling in having power than it does with actual comments on the work. She looooves having employees. But I managed to say the mantra I developed as a child. "I am not my mother. People realize that I am not my mother. What she does is what she does, not what I do. People know that."
I hope that mantra's true. :(
I got out of the house to the office yesterday, which forced me into work mode at least a bit. And gave me a few hours to not miss Harry on my lap or next to me on the bed.
Oh, and I didn't have a full fledged migraine, just a mild optical migraine.
And today I really need to get something out ASAP, so that's occupying part of my mind.
If my parents don't keep reopening the wounds, at least for a few days, maybe just maybe I'll be able to regain some resiliency.
Posted by fallsfall on October 12, 2004, at 11:09:46
In reply to Hey! I don't feel so bad this morning., posted by Dinah on October 12, 2004, at 8:12:09
You deserve a small respite. Breathe deeply and enjoy it.
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 12, 2004, at 12:43:01
In reply to Hey! I don't feel so bad this morning., posted by Dinah on October 12, 2004, at 8:12:09
> My mom broke the two day lead time rule, and I did what she asked anyway. So I was a bit angry with her and with me. But I reminded her of the rule and told her she lucked out this time, which dissipated the anger a bit.
The boundary setter (you) has every right to rescind a boundary now and again, if it's expedient to do so. It is wise to remind the other party not only of the existence of that boundary, but also that you are consciously tossing them a bone. It was still your decision. That's the new theme.
Di, give it some time. Change doesn't come in a day. It took a long time for things to get messed up. It's going to take a bit of time to organize things anew.
Adults are no different than kids. They like easily understood limits. So long as they're reasonable and respectful limits or boundaries, they stand a very good chance of enduring.
Don't be too surprised if the caregivers you've arranged for aren't already fully aware of the need for boundaries.
One day at a time. Live it one day at a time. If that's too much, live it one hour at a time. I've been down to living one second at a time, on occasion. But sometimes a single second was sufficient to allow a new reality a chance to exist.
I'm very optimistic about what you've been describing these last few days, despite the fact you're so tired.
Take care of yourself, okay?
Lar
Posted by Dinah on October 12, 2004, at 16:29:57
In reply to Re: Hey! I don't feel so bad this morning. » Dinah, posted by Larry Hoover on October 12, 2004, at 12:43:01
Another caving by me. It's never going to stop.
I'm calling today for Luvox. :(
Posted by AuntieMel on October 12, 2004, at 17:24:33
In reply to Another request, another great reason, posted by Dinah on October 12, 2004, at 16:29:57
Dinah - it's hard to break years of training, no matter how much you try.
Try not to think of them as a "cave" but as a temporary lapse. Just re-dedicate you to keeping your boundaries and carry on.
Do you have caller-id and a machine? Maybe it would be harder to ask if she can't read your reaction. If not, it at least gives you time to think out a response.
Posted by partlycloudy on October 12, 2004, at 17:52:40
In reply to Another request, another great reason, posted by Dinah on October 12, 2004, at 16:29:57
This is as new to you as it is to her - easy, easy. Don't beat yourself up, please.
pc
Posted by Dinah on October 14, 2004, at 21:21:05
In reply to Re: Another request, another great reason » Dinah, posted by partlycloudy on October 12, 2004, at 17:52:40
Realized that part of both ends of the problem is that I'm scared my dad's going to die. The fear feeds the anger, and also prevents me from keeping strong boundaries. I'm afraid he'll die and I'll hate myself forever.
I went out of my way to care for Harry in his last year. We didn't take any vacation, I spent a fortune. I worked from home as much as possible so I could help him. And when he died I felt happy to know that I had done what I could.
How will I feel when my Dad dies?
He's not a perfect man by any means, but he loves me and did his best by me. How could I live with myself if I did less for him.
I realize that some things I just can't do. I can't help him with body functions or bathe him. I can't take him into my home. But the other things I can do I should do gladly out of love.
My therapist says I need to learn to live within my emotional limitations. That if I can't learn to do that it'll kill me. And yes, I can't do this. This is clear. I'm basically nonfunctional. But it doesn't matter if I can't, I have to or die trying. Because I can't live with myself otherwise.
I'm scared to think of my father dying, for a myriad of reasons. He's my daddy and I love him. He's left me in a very awkward position with the rest of my family, estate wise. He always took care of me, even if I took care of him too.
It scares me to see him like this. His belly is all distended, and the doctors said his liver is so bad that his kidneys are malfunctioning and his abdomen is filled with urine. I can't think this is a good thing. He's so weak. They're going to do an ultrasound next week, and put in a needle to drain the fluids. I'm going to be in deep doo doo at work if I go, but I can't not go. He asked me to bring him. I'm afraid he's going to die soon.
I pray the Luvox works, because I'm pretty sure what will happen to me if it doesn't.
Posted by Skittles on October 14, 2004, at 21:24:10
In reply to Can't do it, not going to try., posted by Dinah on October 14, 2004, at 21:21:05
Posted by Dinah on October 14, 2004, at 22:56:36
In reply to Can't do it, not going to try., posted by Dinah on October 14, 2004, at 21:21:05
Did some internet research. But they did get enough right to concern me. My mother says two of the doctors said a life expectancy of no more than two years, but you can't believe my mother.
He *looks* bad. He looks such a way that the kidney failure that my mother mentioned doesn't seem unlikely, though I can't believe what she says.
I guess I'll find out when I take him to the three doctor appts next week. When I'm going to work, I'm not sure.
Posted by Pfinstegg on October 15, 2004, at 15:27:40
In reply to As usual my parents got quite a bit wrong, posted by Dinah on October 14, 2004, at 22:56:36
Dinah - I'm so sorry. It sounds as though your father may have both kidney and liver failure (liver failure is the one that causes abdominal distention), He can live quite a long time with these- it could be years, but it could also be more like months.
I lost both of my parents in the last eight years, and I am trying to think what things helped me and them the most, and what things didn't so much. I think the physical things- care - were the most draining and the least rewarding. Turning all of that over to home health care aides was a huge relief, as I didn't have to deal so much with their fear, resentment, balkiness, etc. I was more in a position to choose what our interactions woud be like, and I tried hard to make them positive. One of the best things was just sitting with them, and encouraging them to recall the happiest moments in their lives- and to share them withh me (I learned a number of things I'd never known). It seemed to help them be more peaceful to remember meaningful moments, and to have me acknowledge them. Then, when they were very ill, it helped to stroke their hair, faces and hands, and thank them for being my parents. They were pretty awful parents, but even so, there were things to love and appreciate about each one. I know you know all these things, and are already doing them, but I just wanted to post to say that I'm glad you are back here and in touch with us. If you hadn't been by today, I was going to put in a call for you. Things just aren't right when you're not here. Still, that's quite selfish, as you've got your parents, your own family, more therapy appointments than usual- and work to fit in somehow. Really glad you posted today, though.
Posted by AuntieMel on October 15, 2004, at 15:40:45
In reply to Can't do it, not going to try., posted by Dinah on October 14, 2004, at 21:21:05
Then I vote for you not to try. Spend as much or as little time with him as you emotionally can, but make it quality time. Get a tape recorder and ask him to tell you stories about his life. Laugh about the things you remember together. Look at pictures together.
Enjoy what you can.
Posted by Dinah on October 15, 2004, at 18:24:05
In reply to Re: Can't do it, not going to try. » Dinah, posted by AuntieMel on October 15, 2004, at 15:40:45
I'll do my best, but my father *hates* that sort of thing. He's so far refused to tell stories into a tape, and I started long before he had anything wrong with him. If I try to tell him how much he's meant to me, he'll say something rude. I'll do it anyway. I know the rude is just a surface thing. Maybe a few layers deep into the surface. :)
Posted by Dinah on October 15, 2004, at 18:32:09
In reply to Re: As usual my parents got quite a bit wrong » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on October 15, 2004, at 15:27:40
I have this bizarre gift of being able to see when dogs are going to die. I've only been wrong once, and that was with my dad a few years ago; I guess it's because he's not a dog.
He's got that look that's got me scared again though.
If I do happen to disappear, don't worry too much. My therapist is making hospital noises. I'm a bit annoyed with him. You're supposed to be honest with them, and I'm in no immediate danger. I hope he doesn't choose that route. It could be a serious rupture in the therapeutic relationship.
I'm going to do my best to do what I know is the right thing. I sure wish my parents would make it as easy as Harry did, though. :)
And I'm going to take the time (that I don't have) to bring him to his tests and procedures over the next couple of weeks. Maybe I'll learn something that doesn't come through my mother.
Thanks for thinking of me. I'm selfishly glad to know that my presence is important to you. :)
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