![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 66 to 90 of 91. Go back in thread:
Posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 10:44:40
In reply to Thank you » special_k, posted by Dinah on April 6, 2006, at 7:49:50
yeah. it is a hard one.
i don't think my mother ever appreciated me as a seperate entity. but then i don't know that she is capable of that. i don't know that she understands. imo it has brought her much pain in life.as an example...
i borrowed a fair bit (imo) of money off her to relocate. and i was grateful for that yes. especially since i know that my mother saved money when she was on welfare (so yeah auntiemel i guess that is why i get so funny about saving and how everyone can save to be a millionare because i guess that is what my mother was trying to do but we were on welfare and if you are managing to save money on welfare then imo basic needs are comprimised....)
but then... depends what you mean by basic.
i remember being dragged around town in order to get a 50c saving on an item of clothing. my mother would make a big (and very loud deal) of that 50c saving. it was a source of embarrasment and shame to me she would say in a loud voice 'that is 50c cheaper at this shop' when 'this shop' was 40 minutes walk away all the way across town. and i would have to walk it. and listen to her say such things in a loud voice (she seemed to think she was doing other shoppers a favour) to inform the shop assistant. do you think they gave a f*ck? they just wondered what the f*ck her problem was - as did i. but when i was 5, when i was 7, when i was 13 it was just a source of shame.
and especially when it was clear that quality (or some thing like a hideous pattern on the side was comprimised for that 50c saving)
any wonder i don't give a sh*t and i just buy what i like (even though you can get the same thing for $50 cheaper if you are prepared to cross the road just abouts now????)
and so i have swung to the other extreme. which is just as bad in its own way.... but isn't it understandable given that history?
any way...
that is my shame my pain my problem...
back to my mother...
i borrowed money off her to relocate, and i knew how she (we) sacrificed in order to come by that money. in fact... that makes it worse in a way. the knowledge that i got the f*ck away from that crazyness and yet it has continued for her. she is oh so proud of getting this or that for 50c whereas for me it would be a source of shame that it is so very important to her... that a 50c or 20c saving is so very important to her... and you know what she said to me as she wrote me out travellers cheques??? 'i saved when you were a kid so i would be able to give you money for something like this'. and she did give me money to relocate. and it was actually very reasonable (nicer than as a matter of fact, i didn't have to worry and that is absolutely f*cking amazing when you consider that she manages to eat for probably around 10 or 15 dollars a week).
and it broke my heart (just abouts). it really did. because 50c when i was a kid... would have meant so much to me at times... and she honestly can't comprehend that. she can't comprehend...
anyway... i was amazed at her doing that... giving me money so i didn't have to worry about relocating. and when i arrived... i sent her friend an email. why? because she doesn't have email (part of saving clearly). but her friend does, and so i promised to keep in touch via her friends email. and so as soon as i arrived i sent her an email. quite a long detailed one that i thought she would really appreciate. to show my appreciation. because i was feeling a bit bad... she doesn't do anything nice for herself.
anyway...
she takes sleeping tablets now (valium i think). and her friend phoned her and read her the email. and she listened... and promptly forgot.
she rang my father and harrased him and complained at him (according to him) about how i never emailed / contacted her.
so he pressured me to get in touch with her.
i emailed her agian and said i had emailed but hadn't heard back. she checked with her friend. she was aware i emailed her and she forgot...
AND SHE WAS STILL GOING OFF AT ME ABOUT HOW MUCH IT HURT FOR ME TO HAVE NOT CONTACTED HER. she knew that i had BUT SHE FELT THAT I HAD NOT CONTACTED HER and she was unable to reconcile those two things...
and that is my mother.
she can't do any better.
please god don't let me be like that
:-(
:-(
:-(
Posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 10:50:20
In reply to Thank you » special_k, posted by Dinah on April 6, 2006, at 7:49:50
sorry. i just wanted to say... that my needs were disregarded.
and for what?
she saved and saved and saved.
for us to squander now because we have gone to the other extreme... because she was at such an extreme... and just in case you think it is about pressure now (my stepmother 'jokes' about how they are investing in their retirement - like i am going to support them when my father stopped supporting me when i was 7 and then gave me a bit of money - most of it reimbursed to relocate) my mother... went without in order to save... and she gives me money to what? to squander (according to her views of spending / saving) and yeah thats what i do, have done...
and i feel ill.
and i feel like i have let her down.
how many years in my room... how many years being hauled across town... was it worth it?
she sends me a card
'just do your best'
your best is ok.
wtf.
she is sick.
how can i hate her?
goddamn it hurts so much.
Posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 10:59:17
In reply to Re: Thank you, posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 10:50:20
and thats got nothing to do with anything...
but i am drunk and raving...
and at this point it is probably a good thing. because you get drunk and people talk... and people help you feel accepted at times... and apparantly there is this grad school phenomenon and i can't remember what it is called but it basically captures the 'i'm so stupid and i got in 'cause of luck and soon enough peoples are going to realise how stupid i am and regret me' phenomenon that i am going through... and apparantly everybody goes through this... and i had a frank talk with this guy about how it can help when people coax you through it and maybe how you get less coaxing as a girl (oh my god am i becomming / convering people to be raving feminists)... but how everybody feels that way and it is okay. it is okay. and i am okay. and i need to try more 'cause i'm doing okay.
raving raving...
boundaries (for those still with us...)
yeah.
hard as a little kid 'cause you need your boundaries respected. but then... as a little kid it is supposed to be ok to ask for hugs. to need hugs. to need people to just unconditionally love you etc.
then when you grow up / as you grow up... all of a sudden it isn't okay anymore :-(
i reminded of this movie... life of marylin munroe... apparantly... her therapist used to hold her. just hold her. while she went off to sleep. nothing sexual. just holding her... i have sympathy... trouble is with adults physiological responses come into play and things can get confusing (especially in light of abuse)... but it is so damned hard.
when what we want is just to be held...
and i have sympathy.
and it hurts so much to think it can never happen 'cause i'm an adult now. i'm not im not. but the body is :-( the body is :-( and that is an end to it.
and i don't know...
but life sucks sometimes. it does.
Posted by cricket on April 6, 2006, at 12:24:38
In reply to Re: Thank you, posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 10:44:40
Oh yes.
Mother boundary issues - big one for me.
Perhaps I should start a post in relationships.
Come on over if you feel like ranting some more.
Posted by Deneb on April 6, 2006, at 15:30:26
In reply to Re: careful deneb... » Deneb, posted by special_k on April 5, 2006, at 22:38:21
Whatever happens, I think we'll all have a fun time. I'm sure I won't get angry or upset if Dr. Bob would rather not hug. I think I have to ask or else I might regret not asking for the rest of my life. I just have to try. :-)
(Dr. Bob, please don't tell me here whether you will accept my hug or not, I would rather you tell me in person. :-) )
I can't wait to ask Dr. Bob if I can hug him! Hehehe. It will be so fun! I'm so happy!
Deneb*
Posted by Poet on April 6, 2006, at 15:35:58
In reply to We'll have a fun time whatever happens, posted by Deneb on April 6, 2006, at 15:30:26
Hi Deneb,
I think you are absolutely right- it will be fun whatever happens.
It's okay to ask Dr. Bob for a hug, but please don't leap into his arms if he says yes. ;-)
Poet
p.s. the only hugs I allow are safe cyber ones. You can always hug Dr. Bob through cyberspace if he says no.
Posted by Deneb on April 6, 2006, at 15:43:11
In reply to Re: We'll have a fun time whatever happens » Deneb, posted by Poet on April 6, 2006, at 15:35:58
> Hi Deneb,
>
> I think you are absolutely right- it will be fun whatever happens.
>
> It's okay to ask Dr. Bob for a hug, but please don't leap into his arms if he says yes. ;-)LOL, I won't do that, promise. :-)
>
> Poet
>
> p.s. the only hugs I allow are safe cyber ones. You can always hug Dr. Bob through cyberspace if he says no.Thanks for letting me know Poet. :-) I'm still unsure of whether or not I want hugs from Babblers. I think I'll know better when we meet. It will be okay because I'm sure we will ask each other before doing any hugging.
Deneb*, who sees no problem in declining hugs. :-)
Posted by Alex Elliott on April 6, 2006, at 22:21:29
In reply to Re: I wonder why Dr. Bob won't accept my scarf, posted by zazenduck on April 4, 2006, at 18:33:33
Hi zazenduck,
I'm not a regular poster, but I read here almost everyday. I just wanted to say: Good Point! It very much seems to me that Dr. Bob continues to engage about this (the scarf). Have you read any Eric Berne? "Games People Play" ? I often think of his ideas, in regard to this website. But perhaps I'm just being paranoid. Still, when I read this post by you, I was surprised and pleased. I think you may be on to something.
Sincerely,
AE> It almost seems like he wants to continue to engage with you about this. Wouldn't it have been simpler to take the gift say thank you and not make an issue about it? (Oh and don't forget to send a thank you note)
>
> Dr Bob doesn't always see social norms the way others do....it's just part of being Dr Bob.
>
> Refusing to accept it just makes it into a bigger deal and continues the dialogue with all this wondering why! I can see a therapist reacting in this way but a forum owner??
>
> Of course Mrs Bob may have a strict no gifts from girls under 25 policy for Bob and she may have laid down the law!! But geez it was a scarf not a set of underwear!
>
> I like you Deneb. I admire your spirit. PLEASE don't let this upset you and get yourself blocked or ruin your trip to Toronto,ok?> It almost seems like he wants to continue to engage with you about this. Wouldn't it have been simpler to take the gift say thank you and not make an issue about it? (Oh and don't forget to send a thank you note)
>
> Dr Bob doesn't always see social norms the way others do....it's just part of being Dr Bob.
>
> Refusing to accept it just makes it into a bigger deal and continues the dialogue with all this wondering why! I can see a therapist reacting in this way but a forum owner??
>
> Of course Mrs Bob may have a strict no gifts from girls under 25 policy for Bob and she may have laid down the law!! But geez it was a scarf not a set of underwear!
>
> I like you Deneb. I admire your spirit. PLEASE don't let this upset you and get yourself blocked or ruin your trip to Toronto,ok?
Posted by Phillipa on April 6, 2006, at 23:01:50
In reply to Re: I wonder why Dr. Bob won't accept my scarf, posted by Alex Elliott on April 6, 2006, at 22:21:29
Interesting and true about the change of topic. Love Phillipa
Posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 23:36:11
In reply to Re: I wonder why Dr. Bob won't accept my scarf, posted by Alex Elliott on April 6, 2006, at 22:21:29
> It very much seems to me that Dr. Bob continues to engage about this (the scarf).
> > It almost seems like he wants to continue to engage with you about this. Wouldn't it have been simpler to take the gift say thank you and not make an issue about it? (Oh and don't forget to send a thank you note)
it might be simpler in the short term...
but it might be a lot more complicated in the long term (if he accepts a gift from one...re: engaging with the topic...
it is a tricky one.
something i really benefit from here... is being able to talk about what is on my mind honestly. shame is a big thing for me. shame around my thoughts, feelings, and behaviours. if i talk about what is on my mind and find that people don't judge me (and find that people jump in and say 'i've been thinking / feeling / doing similarly myself) then it normalises my experience and i feel a lot more normal and acceptable and understandable and a whole heap happier in myself.
people seem to benefit to being able to talk about transference issues / boundary issues etc over on the psychology board.
re: him... that is a hard one... doesn't quite belong over on psychology but imo similar issues... i commend him for trying to get people to engage with deneb about this (at least that is the way i take it). it isn't so much that he is trying to encourage it or anything, but imo it is nice that he isnt' trying to sweep it under the carpet / ignore it.
if he did that...
then deneb (and others who think / feel / behave similarly) might have a lot more shame etc going on...
i think it is useful.
just my 2c...
Posted by gabbi~1 on April 6, 2006, at 23:53:53
In reply to Re: just my opinion (fwiw)..., posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 23:36:11
I really liked those posts Special K
Good insight!
Thank you
Posted by special_k on April 7, 2006, at 0:17:09
In reply to Re: just my opinion (fwiw)... » special_k, posted by gabbi~1 on April 6, 2006, at 23:53:53
> I really liked those posts Special K
> Good insight!
> Thank youwelcome. in fact... thank you. hard for me to know sometimes. sometimes i am not sure whether i am harming or helping. i guess... deneb reminds me of me when i was her age... so much at times... and so it is hard because i try and convey to her what i wish someone could have conveyed to me (though i get in moods sometimes and don't do so well) but sometimes i'm not sure whether i'm harming or helping 'cause i'm not sure if i'm projecting my old stuff on deneb or if she really is so very uncannily similar to me at her age...
hard to know...
but talking through this kind of stuff really helps me.
'cause i have sympathy for the questions...
and i understand why you need to know this stuff...
and i also understand just how jolly hard it can be to come up with a reasonable answer / understanding of this stuff...
and so her questions get me thinking through stuff...
which is actually really helpful to me...and i'm pleased that other people get something from my ravings sometimes...
'cause i do poke (over on politics especially) :-(
and...
sometimes i do feel like i just go around harming :-(so thank you so much
((((((((((((gabbi)))))))))))
Posted by gabbi~1 on April 7, 2006, at 1:19:23
In reply to Re: just my opinion (fwiw)... » gabbi~1, posted by special_k on April 7, 2006, at 0:17:09
Naww
thank you ((((Special K))))
I also liked what you said About Wittgenstein and if you're vague enough, you'll generations of different interpretations.
That's so true, of everything
The Bible (though I guess that's more language)
Nostradamus
The whole world is just a big rorschac test : )
Posted by special_k on April 7, 2006, at 1:30:39
In reply to Re: just my opinion (fwiw)... » special_k, posted by gabbi~1 on April 7, 2006, at 1:19:23
:-)
> I also liked what you said About Wittgenstein and if you're vague enough, you'll generations of different interpretations.
yep. you don't even have to try and create confusion for confusion to be created...
> The whole world is just a big rorschac test : )
yes indeedie
Posted by zazenduck on April 7, 2006, at 11:26:11
In reply to Re: just my opinion (fwiw)... » gabbi~1, posted by special_k on April 7, 2006, at 1:30:39
http://www.qwantz.com/index.pl?comic=190
> :-)
>
> > I also liked what you said About Wittgenstein and if you're vague enough, you'll generations of different interpretations.
>
> yep. you don't even have to try and create confusion for confusion to be created...
>
> > The whole world is just a big rorschac test : )
>
> yes indeedie
>
>
Posted by zazenduck on April 7, 2006, at 11:32:01
In reply to Re: I wonder why Dr. Bob won't accept my scarf, posted by Alex Elliott on April 6, 2006, at 22:21:29
Posted by NikkiT2 on April 7, 2006, at 11:34:07
In reply to Re: just my opinion (fwiw)... » special_k, posted by zazenduck on April 7, 2006, at 11:26:11
Posted by verne on April 7, 2006, at 14:39:51
In reply to Re: just my opinion (fwiw)... » special_k, posted by zazenduck on April 7, 2006, at 11:26:11
Thanks for the cartoon link. I really like the logical fallacy series - finally a way to learn logic through comics. I bookmarked the page and plan to study further.
verne
Posted by 10derHeart on April 7, 2006, at 21:39:08
In reply to We'll have a fun time whatever happens, posted by Deneb on April 6, 2006, at 15:30:26
I agree, we will :-)
And you know, there are altenatives to hugs.
Handshakes can be nice. They are perhaps easier to "read" - if the other person feels like doing that or not, I mean - as you can just see if they extend their hand when you meet them. A little less intimate and awkward, not so up close and personal as a hug. Allowing more distance, yet still human contact that says, "I'm reaching out to you, " as the person is - literally. Of course, Dr. Bob may not be a hand shaker, anyway. But it's probably more likely than a hugger of Babblers, for the reasons special k has spelled out so well, and just being as it's such a social norm for most.
Even a nice smile in person, and a friendly, "Good to meet you, Deneb," (with or without a handshake) can be surprisingly satisfying. Smiles, as well as a warm tone of voice, can be quite comfy, and very nice to recall afterwards.
I'll admit I'm thinking a lot about past and present therapists when I write this. No, Dr. Bob is no Babbler's therapist (that we know of...;-)) yet as posts have discussed before, there are similarites in the ways some may think of him and how he is important in a way unique from others in posters' lives. So, if an opportunity comes for kind words, a smile or two, and maybe a handshake, those seemingly commonplace social gestures can turn out quite better than you'd expect.
For example, I can still remember my ex-T's smile and how his voice sounded speaking my name, just to call me from the waiting room or something, and I haven't seem him for nearly two years. With my T. now, as I'm leaving, he will shake my hand when I initiate that, and often pats me on the back or squeezes my shoulder, etc. (Hugging is not in the picture right now. It may or may not ever be for several reasons (none of them bad) but that topic is for the psych boards, so...)
I have a great dentist, who is very warm and friendly, yet appropriately reserved and professional at the same time. Contradiction? Not really. He's not my friend, he's not my therapist, yet we've know each other a while now, and well, dentistry is rather intimate, in it's own way. (Just like Babbling about the personal stuff as we do, is very intimate in its own way...) He just has a way of looking you in the eye, greeting you very politely and kindly, and giving a firm, warm handshake. Come to think of it, it's civility. It's this good balance of treating me as an individual with feelings, yet there's no uncomfortable over-familiarity and he knows just where to stop so we both feel good about the interaction.
My point is, hugging is not *the* only possible gesture that can happen when we meet each other and Dr. Bob in Toronto. Heck, certain looks and simple statements of respect and validation can be better than a (potentially) brief and uncertain hug, and the cool part is, they can turn into fond memories. Any time I choose, I can remember my T's reassuring voice and/or handshake. It's very helpful, and doesn't push against new boundary areas for him as it's all in my thoughts....
Stay open to the experience, Deneb. There are many possibilities to connect with the other Babblers and Dr. Bob. Which IMO, when you strip away everything else, is all you really want to do.
"For you, connection is *huge*" ....my T. likes to say.
Posted by Deneb on April 7, 2006, at 22:06:31
In reply to Alternatives to hugs (long) » Deneb, posted by 10derHeart on April 7, 2006, at 21:39:08
Your post made me smile. :-)
I think you're right about not needing a hug to feel a connection. I think I will be happy just to see Dr. Bob in person.
Seeing him and Babblers in real life is going to be very exciting! I can't wait! I can just imagine it.
Even shaking hands will be a big deal to me. I haven't had any human contact in over a year I think. I think the last time was when I was in the hospital and my Mom held my hand.
I can't wait to find out what happens! Will I ask Dr. Bob for a hug? Will he hug me or shake my hand? Will I bring the scarf to show him before I donate it to the less fortunate? Will I love Dr. Bob in real life?
Deneb*
Posted by special_k on April 8, 2006, at 7:09:02
In reply to Alternatives to hugs (long) » Deneb, posted by 10derHeart on April 7, 2006, at 21:39:08
hey 10
cool post :-)
got me thinkingfunnily enough i'm one of these people who find hugs less intimate than eye contact...
but then depends on the setting etc.
and there is some strangeness in that all by itself
sigh.
Posted by Phillipa on April 8, 2006, at 21:50:28
In reply to Re: Alternatives to hugs (long), posted by special_k on April 8, 2006, at 7:09:02
Eye contact is the most intimate thing there is. Ever make love and look into the persons eyes at the same time? Love Phillipa
Posted by special_k on April 10, 2006, at 5:31:19
In reply to Re: Alternatives to hugs (long) » special_k, posted by Phillipa on April 8, 2006, at 21:50:28
> Eye contact is the most intimate thing there is. Ever make love and look into the persons eyes at the same time? Love Phillipa
er well making love might just be the most intimate thing there is... but eye contact can seem pretty close to that re intimacy at times... i think i went through a phase of thinking that eye contact was a lisence for someone to make an advance... and if someone managed to look me in the eyes i felt invaded... damned drunken guys... and some hugs can be pretty intimate too i guess... depends on setting and stuff i guess... some hugs are just nice and friendly. i imagine larry's TM bearhugs are like that. i imagine cyberhugs like that. i dunno. confusing... i think sometimes i just feel so much shame and feel like i wish i was invisible i wish i could fall through the floor someone looking at me just seems too invasive. too much to bear... pro's don't tend to kiss because they consider that too intimate (more intimate than letting someone f*ck them) but then i guess being f*cked is less intimate than making love... i dunno..but yeah. i know what you are talking about. can be nice yeah.
Posted by special_k on April 10, 2006, at 5:40:44
In reply to Re: Alternatives to hugs (long), posted by special_k on April 10, 2006, at 5:31:19
actually that gets me thinking of something daniel dennett wrote... i'll paraphrase which is kinda like making it up as you go... but i shall try...
when you really think about it some of the most pleasurable things and some of the least pleasurable things involve playing around with your boundaries or the boundaries of someone else.
he talks about eating and hugging / intimacy / sex...
and about fear of being engulfed / invaded... invasive things...
and that seems right.
they send to be sources of intense pleasure or intense displeasure.
hrm.
not that i think bob really gets to thinking on the pleasure / displeasure aspect lol.
it is more about the arms length thing i guess...
er...
i was going to say something dammit...
oh yeah.
about the regulating emotions thing...
i know it can be hard to regulate positive emotions. it can be hard because it is so *great* to feel so *great*.
but the trouble is that if you kind of feed and nurture that... then the fall is more inevitable than trying to achieve a more moderate pleasure rather than fostering feeling *great*. how to moderate feeling *great*... well... by thinking of greater context. that is meant to be how. and if you do that (to kind of moderate things) then apparantly it is meant to help with being able to moderate intense displeasure too (the greater context is easier to access and because you bore it in mind before you might not swing from *great* to *not so bloody great*)
but it is hard yes.
but... i think it is worth fostering...
and i think it is part of mature object relations...
i do.
but hard yeah.
Posted by special_k on April 10, 2006, at 6:09:04
In reply to Re: Alternatives to hugs (long), posted by special_k on April 10, 2006, at 5:40:44
actually, the 'arms length' thing is interesting to me. sometimes i think of therapy like that. and irl relationships more generally.
it is like i am standing there (with my head down because the eye contact thing freaks me out) actually... my mother used to look me in the eyes when she was hitting me... but back to the story...
it is like i am standing there... and the therapist or other person or whatever is standing in front of me with their hands on my shoulders. and sometimes i want to pull them closer... and their arms are there to keep me at arms length. they aren't pushing me away it isn't that they want me to get the hell away from them it is just that they retain their distance by keeping me - at arms length. and sometimes i want to push them away. and they just keep their hands on my shoulders and i can't push them away either.
because i do push and pull... i do.
but the boundaries... the arms length thing is better. because eventually... i feel safe (they aren't going to encroach or piss off) and then i can relax and just be me and i don't have to worry so much about them. about what they are up to. but sometimes it is hard to accept the arms length thing. to believe it. and so you have to try things out just to see... but the arms length thing can be great. terrific. to just accept it. i think that is what people need. and sometimes people don't get enough of that.
it reminds me of something else (which is probably only tangentially related). one day in DBT group we had these eggs (i think i've talked about it before). and we were told that the mindfulness exercise was to try and balance our egg on the table.
so people tried to balance it on its end (to no avail). i just put mine on the table.
apparantly they wrote me up as 'refusing to participate' that day. sigh.
my point was...
why fight so hard against gravity?
look...
it is balanced.
just accept that it is balanced
and you won't try changing something that is only going to resist you.
work with it instead.that was the trouble with DBT skills trainers IMO (where i was doing DBT). not many t's really grasp that. just accept it for what it is.
i think that about the arms length thing...
sometimes we try and change it.
but sometimes we just need to accept relationships for what they are
no better no worse
they just are as they are
and that is okay.and there is security in that too.
in fact... maybe more so...
but yeah... i guess you gotta push and pull a little to really feel the security.
like you maybe gotta fight gravity for a while before deciding it might be an idea to work with it.
you can learn vicariously too...
heh heh.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.